The Case for NOT Drafting OL on first 3 Days of this Draft (or Most other drafts) | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

The Case for NOT Drafting OL on first 3 Days of this Draft (or Most other drafts)

Foo27

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Every year this site is filled with "We Need OL In this Draft" or "It all Starts with the OL" or "We Need to take this Guard in Second Round"

I'm going to tell you why this ignores history and ignores what the successful teams have done to build their teams and OLs.
It seems like way too many fans want an entire line full of first and second round picks and the swing tackle to be a high pick as well. It's gotten so ridiculous it's almost become a parody of crazy fans. This morning a fan texted the Joe Rose show that our draft should go OL. OL, OL, OL, OL, OL and then maybe a DE in round 7.

This would be funny if I knew the guy and many fans weren't dead serious about doing this. It's like a broken record that says the wrong thing year after year,

Let's look at why it's a counterproductive thing to do on most years. If you need a LT and are picking in top 10 or one slides to you then by all means draft one in Round 1. We're not in that situation. We're talk about a line that needs a guard and a swing tackle and far better coaching (more on that later)


Look at the OL's of the four remaining teams in playoffs

They aren't full of first and second rounders. The Pats have two high round tackles who aren't healthy but have managed to fill in their interior lineman spots with college free agents like David Andrews and fourth rounders like Tre Jackson and Bryan Stork.

Carolina has Ryan Kalil who was a first rounder but is also full of guys like fourth round All Pro Trai Turner and some late round picks. Oher, Turner, Norwell, Kalil and Remmers was not built through the first two years of Panther drafts

Denver has a line full of free agents and low rounders (remind me again why we didn't sign Evan Mathis) The line of Vasquez, Mathis, Harris, Schofield and Paradis did not cost the Broncos any high draft picks.

Arizona has a line with a mixture of guys but I can't remember a high round pick that starts. Iupati and Veldheer were free agents and Larsen, Massie and Sendlein were lower round guys.

The final four offensive lines are good for several reasons , highest among them I would think is that their FO's and coaches are great at identifying the right players for their systems and then getting them through free agency or on days 3 and 4 of the draft.

We had an absolute disaster of a HC who was labeled an OL coach who was a big proponent of this philosophy of drafting OL high every year. Where did that get us? We may have wasted two thirds and a fourth on guards taken in the last three drafts. The biggest disaster may be the guy that Joe Philbin went to go see in the Senior Bowl three years ago and pounded the table to take with a third round pick that should have been spent on a player, any player, who could have provided a bigger impact.

That player, of course, was LG Dallas Thomas, who is the worst guard I've ever seen and based on his play shouldn't be on this roster one second more.
I don't blame him as much as I do Philbin and Ireland who had the arrogance and stupidity to think they have to have a slug like Thomas who should have not even been drafted. the fact that they took him with a shoulder injury in the THIRD round was a joke.

Opportunity Costs

Guards have no value in round 1-3 imo. Unless you want to dig up John Hannah, why would I take a guard in Round 2 or 3 when I can get one 2 days later or even as a college free agent? Bettter yet, get a guard in free agency who already knows how to play. There's no guarantee any of the OL you guys drool about can step in and play next year. If you get a top ten tackle, sure, your odds are better but look at all the rolls of the dice our 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounders have produced. Jon Martin, D Thomas, Jamil Douglas and Billt Turner have all been disasters, even in years 2 and 3 of their careers.

College centers usually don't usually give back high round value either. If you have multiple needs (ala fixing the entire Dolphin defense) it makes no sense to take a guard or a C or a RT over a position which could offer more impact like a LB, CB or RB/WR.

I like J'Wan James but there's no way he offers as much value as players picked behind him such as Brandin Cooks, Ha-Ha Clinton Dix, Kelvin Benjamin, or Deone Buchanon. especially if you look at the long term potential of those guys.

If you saw some of the players taken AFTER Dallas Thomas, you'd yak. I have and I have.

Hickey and Philbin got LOCKED into the idea that they HAD to have a RT in that draft and they reached big time, they panicked and when I read these fan pleas for more OL through the draft I hear the same panic and illogical thinking that has derailed many a Miami draft.

2004- Miami had many needs but at the top was OL in dopey Ricky Spielman's mind. He panicked, traded up one spot, while wasting a pick to do so, and picked a RT/G in Round 1. Vernon Carey had a solid but brief NFL career. The guy picked one pick behind him by the team that keeps winning Super Bowls was Vince Wilfork, who has had a long, productive Hall of Fame impact kind of a career. That's a big reason why they're where they are and why Miami fires GM's as often as Trump fires his barbers.

The facts support that good teams are taking impact players in rounds 1-3 and guards, RT's and centers later and through free agency. Miami is a team that needs more youth and speed and talent on defense. You get that in the draft. Good teams do not have MULTIPLE 1st-3rd rounders invested in their OL. Please no more, " we need the Stanford guard in round 2 (really, Jon Martin didn't turn you off to Stanford OL forever?) or the Marshall guard in round 3"

We need better OL coaching and a FA guard not more Flat Earth thinking that was the hallmark of the Failbin/Ireland administration.
 
Do you really think 10th or 15th best guard in the draft is what Miami needs to solve it's o-line issues. Sure you can get lucky and find linemen later in the draft, but the same is true for, running backs, dbs and receivers too. If you wait until the fourth, fifth or sixth round to try and find a quality starting guard the odds are in favor of of you failing. For every one that works out there are several no-name guards that washed out that were drafted in those rounds too.
 
im all in for a tackle that can move in to guard at 8 overall. So many injuries, we also need a late round development center/guard. Anyone that thinks pouncey and Albert made the probowl other than there popularity is a moron. Our best player this year didn't make the probowl..
 
im all in for a tackle that can move in to guard at 8 overall. So many injuries, we also need a late round development center/guard. Anyone that thinks pouncey and Albert made the probowl other than there popularity is a moron. Our best player this year didn't make the probowl..

Stanley at 8 is logical. Depressing, but logical.


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Do you really think 10th or 15th best guard in the draft is what Miami needs to solve it's o-line issues. Sure you can get lucky and find linemen later in the draft, but the same is true for, running backs, dbs and receivers too. If you wait until the fourth, fifth or sixth round to try and find a quality starting guard the odds are in favor of of you failing. For every one that works out there are several no-name guards that washed out that were drafted in those rounds too.

No, I don't think a 5th or 6th round guard will fix our OL. Problem is I don't think a 1st or 2nd round guard will either. It's Groundhog Day in here and I'm pushing back on the idea that never goes away- a high pick on a guard is not a smart thing to do, it offers little value, there's almost always someone on the board with more potential and ability who plays at a position of at least equal need.

If you take a guard in rounds 1-4 you give up the chance to draft a pass rusher, cover guy or better LB or FS. We have such critical and so many needs on defense that this is the year this "OL first, last and always" has to go away.

Look at the guards on the Final Four teams, they are made up of free agents and lower round picks. Problem for us is Panthers get Trai Turner we get Bill Turner. It is foolish to waste a high pick on a largely disposable position and one that can be filled by a GM and HC with half a brain.

Fix the line with a free agent guard and a head coach and OL coach who understands football better than the buffoon Philbin did. Philbin had to have a guard every year in the third or fourth round and it yielded the worst get of guards in the league. Blame should go on the guy who can't spot talent or apparently develop it not on the fact that Turner or Thomas weren't higher picks.
 
The problem is that the team doesn't draft well and is especially poor at assessing OL talent. I don't care if we draft OL in the 1st rd, 7th rd, anything in between and hopefully at least two picks imo, the trick is drafting well. This organization is pathetic at drafting OL other than slam dunk high first round picks. But no matter you cut it, quality and depth at OL especially OG are huge problems.
 
We need to move jamil douglas back to LG and sign Kelechi in FA, 7 to 8.5 mil, but we need him. We also need to draft a swing tackle in the 3rd round, who can take over for Albert in a year or two. A 4th round RG to compete with Turner and use one of our 7th rounders to get a backup center. Now Tannehill is ready to play QB.
 
A couple major factors that youre missing out on with this thread.

- All the teams you mentioned have QB's that get the ball out quickly.
- Those QB's also have great pocket presence and awareness.
- They have coaches that design plays that get WR's open.
- They don't abandon the run.
- They didn't have Jeff Ireland

Keep in mind, Tom Brady and Peyton Manning have been making other players look good for years. That's why they're great and they wins games. They could even make Dallas Thomas look good.
 
A couple major factors that youre missing out on with this thread.

- All the teams you mentioned have QB's that get the ball out quickly.
- Those QB's also have great pocket presence and awareness.
- They have coaches that design plays that get WR's open.
- They don't abandon the run.
- They didn't have Jeff Ireland

Keep in mind, Tom Brady and Peyton Manning have been making other players look good for years. That's why they're great and they wins games. They could even make Dallas Thomas look good.

Dallas Thomas would not be the starter for very long on a Brady/Manning team. They absolutely would not allow a starting offensive lineman that gets beat immediately to be protecting them! They seem to hold accountable! Brady especially doesn't look like he would stand for that non-sense.
 
That philosophy worked well for Jimmy Johnson. I do tend to agree, but there are exceptions when a player is a standout and the best available at that position.

Miami has spent a lot of resources and high draft picks on the offensive line and the unit is still among the worst in the NFL. I think it has a lot to do with the coaching and, as others have said, quarterbacks who can get the ball out quickly.
 
We need to move jamil douglas back to LG and sign Kelechi in FA, 7 to 8.5 mil, but we need him. We also need to draft a swing tackle in the 3rd round, who can take over for Albert in a year or two. A 4th round RG to compete with Turner and use one of our 7th rounders to get a backup center. Now Tannehill is ready to play QB.

So we're going to spend 3 of our 8 picks on OL including picks for a RG and a backup center and potentially waste another 3rd rounder on swing tackle?

This is like Washington telling citizens they need more tax revenue for government programs. Whole lotta resources for a whole lotta nothing in return.

We have needs at CB, FS, OLB, ILB and quite possibly RB, TE and def. DE. How do those holes get filled?
 
A couple major factors that youre missing out on with this thread.

- All the teams you mentioned have QB's that get the ball out quickly.
- Those QB's also have great pocket presence and awareness.
- They have coaches that design plays that get WR's open.
- They don't abandon the run.
- They didn't have Jeff Ireland

Keep in mind, Tom Brady and Peyton Manning have been making other players look good for years. That's why they're great and they wins games. They could even make Dallas Thomas look good.

Nobody could make Dallas Thomas look good. not even Jason Fox. These points do not help make any argument against NOT wasting 1-3 rounders on GUARDS. No guard prospect will help Tannehill's pocket awareness or get receivers open or encourage dopes like Philbin and Lazor to run the ball like a professional team does.

The point here is that good GM's do not continue to squander high picks on guards and right tackles. Good coaches don't encourage GM"s to keep drafting disposable positions this high every year. It's why we're a bad team.

it's like building a house and deciding to spend 20% of the budget on the deck or the driveway.

This is about why some GM's and HC's thrive and others Failbin. You can't keep throwing resources at a problem and expect it to get better. It's up to Gase and Grier to identify the right FREE AGENT guard, bring him in and make OL an afterthought in the draft as it should be

Here's what people in here are missing. You can draft a top tackle prospect like a Tunsil and get him to play guard but you're giving up the chance to get a better player at an impact position. Draft picks are a chance to get a cheap player for 4 years you can plug in and develop. I would expect a reasonable chance to bring in a combo of DE, LB and DB with first three picks and have at least 2 of 3 play prominent roles in fixing this defense.

Is there really a GUARD prospect you expect the same with? don't give me first round tackles because that's not fair and you're again wasting resources when you do that.

That system for guards just doesn't work and won't work.
 
Every year this site is filled with "We Need OL In this Draft" or "It all Starts with the OL" or "We Need to take this Guard in Second Round"

I'm going to tell you why this ignores history and ignores what the successful teams have done to build their teams and OLs.
It seems like way too many fans want an entire line full of first and second round picks and the swing tackle to be a high pick as well. It's gotten so ridiculous it's almost become a parody of crazy fans. This morning a fan texted the Joe Rose show that our draft should go OL. OL, OL, OL, OL, OL and then maybe a DE in round 7.

This would be funny if I knew the guy and many fans weren't dead serious about doing this. It's like a broken record that says the wrong thing year after year,

Let's look at why it's a counterproductive thing to do on most years. If you need a LT and are picking in top 10 or one slides to you then by all means draft one in Round 1. We're not in that situation. We're talk about a line that needs a guard and a swing tackle and far better coaching (more on that later)


Look at the OL's of the four remaining teams in playoffs

They aren't full of first and second rounders. The Pats have two high round tackles who aren't healthy but have managed to fill in their interior lineman spots with college free agents like David Andrews and fourth rounders like Tre Jackson and Bryan Stork.

Carolina has Ryan Kalil who was a first rounder but is also full of guys like fourth round All Pro Trai Turner and some late round picks. Oher, Turner, Norwell, Kalil and Remmers was not built through the first two years of Panther drafts

Denver has a line full of free agents and low rounders (remind me again why we didn't sign Evan Mathis) The line of Vasquez, Mathis, Harris, Schofield and Paradis did not cost the Broncos any high draft picks.

Arizona has a line with a mixture of guys but I can't remember a high round pick that starts. Iupati and Veldheer were free agents and Larsen, Massie and Sendlein were lower round guys.

The final four offensive lines are good for several reasons , highest among them I would think is that their FO's and coaches are great at identifying the right players for their systems and then getting them through free agency or on days 3 and 4 of the draft.

We had an absolute disaster of a HC who was labeled an OL coach who was a big proponent of this philosophy of drafting OL high every year. Where did that get us? We may have wasted two thirds and a fourth on guards taken in the last three drafts. The biggest disaster may be the guy that Joe Philbin went to go see in the Senior Bowl three years ago and pounded the table to take with a third round pick that should have been spent on a player, any player, who could have provided a bigger impact.

That player, of course, was LG Dallas Thomas, who is the worst guard I've ever seen and based on his play shouldn't be on this roster one second more.
I don't blame him as much as I do Philbin and Ireland who had the arrogance and stupidity to think they have to have a slug like Thomas who should have not even been drafted. the fact that they took him with a shoulder injury in the THIRD round was a joke.

Opportunity Costs

Guards have no value in round 1-3 imo. Unless you want to dig up John Hannah, why would I take a guard in Round 2 or 3 when I can get one 2 days later or even as a college free agent? Bettter yet, get a guard in free agency who already knows how to play. There's no guarantee any of the OL you guys drool about can step in and play next year. If you get a top ten tackle, sure, your odds are better but look at all the rolls of the dice our 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounders have produced. Jon Martin, D Thomas, Jamil Douglas and Billt Turner have all been disasters, even in years 2 and 3 of their careers.

College centers usually don't usually give back high round value either. If you have multiple needs (ala fixing the entire Dolphin defense) it makes no sense to take a guard or a C or a RT over a position which could offer more impact like a LB, CB or RB/WR.

I like J'Wan James but there's no way he offers as much value as players picked behind him such as Brandin Cooks, Ha-Ha Clinton Dix, Kelvin Benjamin, or Deone Buchanon. especially if you look at the long term potential of those guys.

If you saw some of the players taken AFTER Dallas Thomas, you'd yak. I have and I have.

Hickey and Philbin got LOCKED into the idea that they HAD to have a RT in that draft and they reached big time, they panicked and when I read these fan pleas for more OL through the draft I hear the same panic and illogical thinking that has derailed many a Miami draft.

2004- Miami had many needs but at the top was OL in dopey Ricky Spielman's mind. He panicked, traded up one spot, while wasting a pick to do so, and picked a RT/G in Round 1. Vernon Carey had a solid but brief NFL career. The guy picked one pick behind him by the team that keeps winning Super Bowls was Vince Wilfork, who has had a long, productive Hall of Fame impact kind of a career. That's a big reason why they're where they are and why Miami fires GM's as often as Trump fires his barbers.

The facts support that good teams are taking impact players in rounds 1-3 and guards, RT's and centers later and through free agency. Miami is a team that needs more youth and speed and talent on defense. You get that in the draft. Good teams do not have MULTIPLE 1st-3rd rounders invested in their OL. Please no more, " we need the Stanford guard in round 2 (really, Jon Martin didn't turn you off to Stanford OL forever?) or the Marshall guard in round 3"

We need better OL coaching and a FA guard not more Flat Earth thinking that was the hallmark of the Failbin/Ireland administration.

When I first read your post, my initial reaction was to disagree. After taking some more time with it however, I think you make some valid points.

I think OT is a premium position because it is a rare athlete that has size, strength, and feet that are needed to stay in front of today's hyper-athletic pass rushers. I don't believe the same with OGs. I think the inside line positions can be capably filled with players that display toughness, intelligence, and TECHNIQUE above all else. It's the one position on the field I believe can be dramatically improved with good coaching to improve technique.

That's why I agree that the most important upgrade we can make is to the OL coaching staff. That's where the Patriots have gotten it right over the years and where teams like Shanahan's Broncos used to get it right. Good OL coaches can solve depth issues by making the available players more versatile and by providing detailed coaching points that help the OL game to game, and even series to series.

Fans are frustrated because we have watched Philbin, Ireland, and Hickey either destroy the Oline through poor coaching or inattention to problem positions. Perfect example is last year. La'el Collins is sitting there to be had with a late round pick. This is a first round talent. It would have been one thing if we decided not to touch Collins out of a sense of principle or team policy, but it looks more like the FO tried to prove how smart they were by waiting until the UDFA process to try and get Collins. Would it have killed us to spend a 7th round pick to make sure to lock up his rights for a year? Even if he didn't play for us, maybe we leverage a pick out of one of his preferred teams for his rights. It was one of the dumbest FO moves in a series of dumb FO moves over the last 5 seasons.
 
I still believe you build championship teams on the foundation of a great defense. All things being equal, you take the top defensive player on your board (assuming there is no elite QB prospect).
I'm no draft guru nor did I watch many all of the bowl games, but I recall reading an article on Stanley that he struggled in the bowl game with power/bull rushes. Apparently he has great feet (allegedly do did Jonathan Martin). This team does not need any finesse players on the Oline, especially since they play in the AFC East.
This team simply cannot gamble the 8th pick on an Olineman unless it's Tunsil (elite LTs are an exception). I've seen a few mock drafts with Stanley going to the Phins. Too big a risk IMO.
Picking 8th this team needs to go DB, LB or DE (if he's the highest graded defender). I wouldn't even consider Oline in this draft until 3rd rd at the earliest.
 
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