The Rosen effect..........

Kamelion4291

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Fact remains: He's not been cut or traded when the time for doing that has long past. Something is not adding up here between your evaluation and our coachs' evaluations of Rosen. I'm curious what that tells you? Are you suggesting our coaches can't evaluate young QB prospects effectively? Maybe our coaches are actually taking into account the circumstances Rosen's experienced during past NFL opportunities to start, while you do not? Is that wise of you, or any effective evaluator?

As for excuses, no one is asking for them. But several of us are certainly looking at the big picture, rather than only at a few stats.

IMO, while it's true that stats matter a lot, they don't mean everything. I certainly would prefer a coaching staff that considers all sides of an issue. Not just the low hanging fruit as some seem to want to do.
If you ask me, sweeping everything he's done under the rug due to circumstances and not looking deeper into the issue is what I would call dealing with the low hanging fruit.
 

fansinceGWilson

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I'm not blaming Rosen for losing. That's a team statistic. I'm blaming him for playing poorly. That's a big difference and I'm not quite sure why you're trying to go in this particular direction with the conversation because I never implied anything like this.
Playing poorly is partly on the individual player, partly surrounding talent, partly on coaching. sadly, Fin fans have lived with all 3 for far too long. And Rosen played poorly. I doubt even his biggest supporters deny that. The debate seems to be attributing percentages to Rosen, players, coaches. I suspect our biggest disagreement is in the percentages.

My "direction" was based on "Stop using surrounding talent as an excuse." If surrounding talent isn't "an excuse," it isn't an "excuse" for any player, on any team, in any era. Again, I'm not arguing good or bad. There is no comparing any Miami QB (including Rosen) to Marino. The disagreement seems to be percentages. Playing poorly is a subset of 'not good enough.'
 

Pachyderm_Wave

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It doesn't matter if you're throwing to Larry Fitzgerald or Allen Hurns, you should be able to hit them in stride
Yessir. He definitely hit Hurns in stride though. Unfortunately, so did the safety.

Don't throw your guy up the seam when the safety is guarding the hash. Especially when they're able to just sit back there and read your eyes.
 

Kamelion4291

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Playing poorly is partly on the individual player, partly surrounding talent, partly on coaching. sadly, Fin fans have lived with all 3 for far too long. And Rosen played poorly. I doubt even his biggest supporters deny that. The debate seems to be attributing percentages to Rosen, players, coaches. I suspect our biggest disagreement is in the percentages.

My "direction" was based on "Stop using surrounding talent as an excuse." If surrounding talent isn't "an excuse," it isn't an "excuse" for any player, on any team, in any era. Again, I'm not arguing good or bad. There is no comparing any Miami QB (including Rosen) to Marino. The disagreement seems to be percentages. Playing poorly is a subset of 'not good enough.'
Frequency matters though. If the surrounding cast is poor, I wouldn't expect even Peyton Manning to end the season looking very good statistically, but is it enough to stop him from having a Peyton Manning-esque game every now and then throughout that season? I don't think it would at all. When the frequency shows that Rosen has NEVER had a good game, then I lean more towards the fact that he just isn't good enough because no amount of talent deficiency has ever stopped a good QB from having a single good game, and Rosen isn't the first unlucky soul to disprove that theory.
 

fansinceGWilson

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Frequency matters though. If the surrounding cast is poor, I wouldn't expect even Peyton Manning to end the season looking very good statistically, but is it enough to stop him from having a Peyton Manning-esque game every now and then throughout that season? I don't think it would at all. When the frequency shows that Rosen has NEVER had a good game, then I lean more towards the fact that he just isn't good enough because no amount of talent deficiency has ever stopped a good QB from having a single good game, and Rosen isn't the first unlucky soul to disprove that theory.
Here we agree to a degree. The good news is I've not given up on him and, to date, neither has Flo. The bad news is his good plays have been few the bad plays have been eye-sores. Don't know you're opinion, but, IMO, it looks like processing speed. Can it be coached up? some, yes. I'd still like to see him behind a good OL and get a general idea of his 'best' play.
 

Kamelion4291

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Here we agree to a degree. The good news is I've not given up on him and, to date, neither has Flo. The bad news is his good plays have been few the bad plays have been eye-sores. Don't know you're opinion, but, IMO, it looks like processing speed. Can it be coached up? some, yes. I'd still like to see him behind a good OL and get a general idea of his 'best' play.
Processing speed has definitely been the biggest issue for him since college. It's why he consistently takes a ton of sacks and had multiple concussions at UCLA. A "good" OL is still going to look average at best because he just holds the ball too long. He needs a Dallas Oline if the idea is that he gets to sit there without worry.
 

fansinceGWilson

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Processing speed has definitely been the biggest issue for him since college. It's why he consistently takes a ton of sacks and had multiple concussions at UCLA. A "good" OL is still going to look average at best because he just holds the ball too long. He needs a Dallas Oline if the idea is that he gets to sit there without worry.
Again, no disagreement. Let me rephrase. 'I'd still like to see him behind a good an average OL and get a general idea of his 'best' play.' I suspect it's 'backup,' but, until then, he is still an unknown to me.
 

ATL_PHIN_FAN

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To me, the lack of surrounding talent argument lost credibility when Fitzpatrick came in under the same exact circumstances and completely out-performed him.
I think Fitz's long NFL experience accounts for most of the difference there. That experience gave Fitz knowledge, confidence and leadership that almost no 23 year old QB could possibly have. In a lot of ways, it was a perfect example of Fitz's value to any young NFL team struggling to find it's identity. Rosen, despite some gifts as a QB, was simply not ready to do that. It showed.
 

lurking

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Again, no disagreement. Let me rephrase. 'I'd still like to see him behind a good an average OL and get a general idea of his 'best' play.' I suspect it's 'backup,' but, until then, he is still an unknown to me.
People also seem to forget that Fitz was horrible behind this oline the first two games of the season and that’s why he was replaced with Rosen. Rosen being somewhat of a rookie himself did not fare any better, so he sucks.
Does he need to improve, hell yeah.
 

JCPHIN_PHAN

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The logic behind the Josh Rosen trade was always deeply flawed.

Even if he were a good football player, which he's not, he had virtually no shot of doing well enough in 2019 to prevent Miami using this 2020 pick to get a top tier quarterback. And once that guy is taken, he WILL be the starter at some point.

Spent a 2nd round pick for nothing. Could've had Erik McCoy if we'd not traded down, or Chase Winovich/Juan Thornhill after the trade down.
CK, i agree with what you said but we have to realize that if it wasn't for this trade...We wouldn't have TUA! Think of it like we traded a 2019 2nd round pick for TUA in 2020. Rosen's losses helped us.
 

Mudd

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Playing poorly is partly on the individual player, partly surrounding talent, partly on coaching. sadly, Fin fans have lived with all 3 for far too long. And Rosen played poorly. I doubt even his biggest supporters deny that. The debate seems to be attributing percentages to Rosen, players, coaches. I suspect our biggest disagreement is in the percentages.

My "direction" was based on "Stop using surrounding talent as an excuse." If surrounding talent isn't "an excuse," it isn't an "excuse" for any player, on any team, in any era. Again, I'm not arguing good or bad. There is no comparing any Miami QB (including Rosen) to Marino. The disagreement seems to be percentages. Playing poorly is a subset of 'not good enough.'
If we stop using surrounding talent as an excuse we should not need to wait for the oline to develop before we insert Tua?
 

Pachyderm_Wave

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CK, i agree with what you said but we have to realize that if it wasn't for this trade...We wouldn't have TUA! Think of it like we traded a 2019 2nd round pick for TUA in 2020. Rosen's losses helped us.

This is really just attempting to conflate good fortune and luck with competence. They're not the same thing.

One thing I tried to get across from the day they traded for Rosen was that in no way was it going to prevent Miami from taking a quarterback high in the 2020 draft. There was just no way that was ever going to happen unless the brass was truly more incompetent than even I believed they were.

I also tried to get the point across that the trade for Rosen was important for what it represented - a change in thinking that places the proper emphasis on the QB position - more than it was ever about Rosen the player. Rosen was always likely to be an irrelevant footnote in the big picture of the task at hand for the current regime. It seems these things must keep being repeated for some reason.

CK is absolutely correct that a kid like Erik McCoy or a Winovich/Thornhill combo was always a more proper demonstration of competence than trading for Rosen. McCoy would be instrumental in helping to construct an offensive line for a young quarterback. Whether it was Rosen, or now Tua. I know if I was Tua I'd like to know I was able to take the snap from Erik McCoy instead of sitting in meeting rooms with Josh Rosen.

J-doll attempted to hammer home the point that Miami should've been trying to build an offensive line last year in order to at least help give a kid like Rosen the best chance to come in and function to the best of his ability. They failed at doing that.

But in another stroke of good fortune, it's probably not going to matter anyway for Rosen in Miami, because they realize he isn't their guy whether they failed to address it or not.
 

superphin

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CK, i agree with what you said but we have to realize that if it wasn't for this trade...We wouldn't have TUA! Think of it like we traded a 2019 2nd round pick for TUA in 2020. Rosen's losses helped us.
Eh he only fully started for 2 losses which were the Cowboys and the Chargers. I doubt we beat the Cowboys even with Fitzpatrick and the Chargers are debatable.
 

Rev Kev

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Rosen is a John Beck-esque talent. Kid has potential, but got she’ll-shocked pretty early on...I guess JR isn’t 85 like Beck was when he started, but it is concerning.
When Rosen is moved for a 5th or 6th Rd pick possibly before the season starts the JR discussion will sort itself out
 

Dogbone34

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Hard to say how Rosen's future plays out.

Depending on how bad he wants to be a top NFL QB, he's clearly in a crossroads moment to shake things up.
 
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