The Rosen effect..........

Kamelion4291

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Eh he only fully started for 2 losses which were the Cowboys and the Chargers. I doubt we beat the Cowboys even with Fitzpatrick and the Chargers are debatable.
We most likely would have beaten Washington if Fitz had started the game which means we fall behind the Chargers who would have then taken Tua.
 

NBP81

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To me, playing QB is a big sequence of if/then's in which actually throwing the football is only the last event in the decision tree. You can analyse arm strenght and accuracy all you want but if the player can't absorb the decision tree AND go through it at an unbelievable rate AND throw the ball accurately using the right trajectory, you've just got yourself a run of the mill NFL QB.

Some guys can throw with accuracy and strenght but they freeze after a couple options, some will do extremely well when put in a situation where they're only required to account for a couple of reads per play(often the case in college it seems) but every tick they lose at each decision point gets them into trouble and they simply cant recover. This is exactly when fans go WTF just happened.

Rosen IMO can absolutely absorb the decision tree, get him on the white board and he'll tell you where the ball should go probably always, he'll also throw that ball perfectly every single time in a controlled environement, problem is when real bullets fly, he's losing alot of ticks between decisions and seems to panic which gets him into trouble. Script him a play where the 1st read is open and the defense did exactly what he thought it would do and you'll get a good play out of him but thats not a frequent occurence in the NFL.

Im not sure how much you can improve that processing speed to be honest... Alot of guys were drafted on arm talent alone by teams hoping it would click at some point. Alot of fans refer to "it" when talking about QBs, I just believe "it" is processing speed and that it's the hardest thing to coach in a QB if it's even doable...
 
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fins317

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Something no one has mentioned anywhere. I wasn't for drafting TUA but now that hes a Dolphin I'm 100% behind him, even got a #1 Jersey on the way for my boys. I find it amusing here and everywhere that people everywhere are just convinced that TUA is going to be the starter and will be in the RING OF HONOR in the stadium and eventually the HOF. Guy hasnt even attended a team meeting yet let alone a practice. What if........WHAT IF.......Rosen does a Tannehill this year behind a competent Oline and running game? Is there any scenario where we keep Rosen over TUA or is the Hype factor and the whole personna surrounding the kid too great? Does PR win over whats best for the team? Competition is good.......but is really any? Think Rosen is just playing to up his trade stock to a different Team?

My Point.....if Rosen plays amazing , shows promise do we still Take TUA with his injury history? Guess the answer is yes because the front office thought enough of him to take him at #5. And Rosen has to actually prove himself more then TUA does at this point. Just a thought...................
Okay,
I was higher on Rosen last year and thought he would supplant Fitz. I was wrong. Fitz has leadership and clearly Rosen does not. Tua also has leadership and lets hope that he can sustain a full NFL career and not be like Mariotta. I agree that we keep Rosen and see if he develops. I also think we should give Tua time to heal and learn the offense. No matter how good you are, speed is different in the NFL from College. The other thing that needs to happen is to let the Offensive line (revamped) come together. When Healing plus O-line experience develops see if Tua is ready. I am probably in the minority, but I liked Chad Henne coming out of college. The problem is we destroyed him as he was running for his life in Miami.
 

gregorygrant83

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Okay,
I was higher on Rosen last year and thought he would supplant Fitz. I was wrong. Fitz has leadership and clearly Rosen does not. Tua also has leadership and lets hope that he can sustain a full NFL career and not be like Mariotta. I agree that we keep Rosen and see if he develops. I also think we should give Tua time to heal and learn the offense. No matter how good you are, speed is different in the NFL from College. The other thing that needs to happen is to let the Offensive line (revamped) come together. When Healing plus O-line experience develops see if Tua is ready. I am probably in the minority, but I liked Chad Henne coming out of college. The problem is we destroyed him as he was running for his life in Miami.

Some of those leadership skills come with experience, failures and success. I doubt Fitzpatrick was the leader he is tday at age 23. Not saying that Rosen will or won't get there, but it seems like an area that going to take some time and experience to realy tell if he's growing or not.
 

BigNastyFish

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Rosen IMO can absolutely absorb the decision tree, get him on the white board and he'll tell you where the ball should go probably always, he'll also throw that ball perfectly every single time in a controlled environement, problem is when real bullets fly, he's losing alot of ticks between decisions and seems to panic which gets him into trouble. Script him a play where the 1st read is open and the defense did exactly what he thought it would do and you'll get a good play out of him but thats not a frequent occurence in the NFL.
Frankly I find this kind of evaluation of Rosen to be (forgive me) rubbish. For example, take a Joe Montana

and watch a play develop as he throws on rhythm with ample protection and clear lines of sight to

highly polished receivers like Jerry Rice. Now transpose that image into what Jim Burt did to Montana

in the playoffs and ---------- end of story! Joe ain't so great when he's pummeled and his OL is

over-matched physically. Or let's take another rhythm passing example -- Brady and the

never ending pocket he had ------ except when the Giants over-matched his OL and

*shocking* Brady just ain't so great anymore! Point is -------- REALLY SIMPLE

most QBs need time/protection and rhythm to be consistently effective -- let alone

get their PRO career up and running. So (perhaps and consider) before we make absolute

determinations about Josh Rosen and his ability to "process" -- how about some TIME and rhythm?

>>> Now if you're going to rebut with a dude like Mahomes --- well good luck getting one of those!

But *shockingly* he certainly seemed to benefit from the redshirt and surrounded by a cast

I'd say is just a tick or two better than we surrounded Rosen with!

:lol:
 

NBP81

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Frankly I find this kind of evaluation of Rosen to be (forgive me) rubbish. For example, take a Joe Montana

and watch a play develop as he throws on rhythm with ample protection and clear lines of sight to

highly polished receivers like Jerry Rice. Now transpose that image into what Jim Burt did to Montana

in the playoffs and ---------- end of story! Joe ain't so great when he's pummeled and his OL is

over-matched physically. Or let's take another rhythm passing example -- Brady and the

never ending pocket he had ------ except when the Giants over-matched his OL and

*shocking* Brady just ain't so great anymore! Point is -------- REALLY SIMPLE

most QBs need time/protection and rhythm to be consistently effective -- let alone

get their PRO career up and running. So (perhaps and consider) before we make absolute

determinations about Josh Rosen and his ability to "process" -- how about some TIME and rhythm?

>>> Now if you're going to rebut with a dude like Mahomes --- well good luck getting one of those!

But *shockingly* he certainly seemed to benefit from the redshirt and surrounded by a cast

I'd say is just a tick or two better than we surrounded Rosen with!

:lol:
Im not telling you surrounding cast doesnt matter, but Rosen is absolutely under performing his... Hell David Carr played behind some notoriously bad OLs on his rookie contract but still managed 62, 69, 83 ratings. Not good but still manageable for a rookie compared to Rosen who just posted a 52 following on 66 just last year in Arizona... Kyler Murray with a similar cast just posted an 87... Do you think the Cards improved so much in one offseason to up their QB 20 points? Ryan Tannehill's rookie season had him targeting the likes of Legadu Nanee, Davone Bess and Brian Hartline, still managed a 76 rating, following season with a similar cast got sacked 58 times and still managed to throw for 24 TDs 17 INTs with a 81 rating...

2 coaching staffs have had their hands on Rosen now and both thought the position need was urgent enough to use a top 10 pick to upgrade. Actions speak louder than words and looking at Rosen's career path as of right now, if he ever becomes a decent back up it will be a miracle.
 

fansinceGWilson

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Im not telling you surrounding cast doesnt matter, but Rosen is absolutely under performing his... Hell David Carr played behind some notoriously bad OLs on his rookie contract but still managed 62, 69, 83 ratings. Not good but still manageable for a rookie compared to Rosen who just posted a 52 following on 66 just last year in Arizona... Kyler Murray with a similar cast just posted an 87... Do you think the Cards improved so much in one offseason to up their QB 20 points? Ryan Tannehill's rookie season had him targeting the likes of Legadu Nanee, Davone Bess and Brian Hartline, still managed a 76 rating, following season with a similar cast got sacked 58 times and still managed to throw for 24 TDs 17 INTs with a 81 rating...

2 coaching staffs have had their hands on Rosen now and both thought the position need was urgent enough to use a top 10 pick to upgrade. Actions speak louder than words and looking at Rosen's career path as of right now, if he ever becomes a decent back up it will be a miracle.
We agree. I've posted elsewhere, the debate is allocating percentages. The problem wasn't 100% Rosen's, but it wasn't ZERO percent either. To give him the benefit of the doubt, he played behind one of the league's historically bad OLs, but no casual observer can deny he played poorly on an individual level. This is either/or, it's both.
 

Swollcolb

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It’s an interesting argument and i think there is at least some relevance. But Tua is a far superior prospect, and will get an opportunity to fail or succeed like Rosen did last season. It probably won’t be until late in this season or next. I think Rosen is still a valuable asset/prospect. I think having Rosen on the roster may have helped ease the FO in drafting Tua. With Tua’s uncertainty with health and injuries having another young top qb prospect to develop gives us another option should Tua sustain a serious injury or fail. I think Rosen learning from Fitz, having stability in a Coach, having a simplified RPO style passing attack with more college philosophies will simplify the game, having an improved OL, and just the natural progression and experience will all have a major impact and allow Rosen to take the next step. With all that being said I still don’t think Rosen is even close to being on Tuas level based off what I’ve seen on tape from both at the collegiate level. Rosen is/was not the same caliber prospect IMO. But Rosen easily is the most exciting QB3 I can remember Miami ever having. And for a team that hasn’t had a QB in like multiple decades it’s refreshing to see a loaded QB room with 2 high level young prospects
 

BigNastyFish

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But Tua is a far superior prospect, and will get an opportunity to fail or succeed like Rosen did last season.
Pardon me! But that's ridiculous! Ain't no way under the sun they'd subject Tua to the same horrible circumstances

that Rosen was "allowed to participate in" last year!

:lol:

So let's at least be remotely honest here. And beyond that --- have a legit competition which supposedly ALWAYS

produces a superior product! But stop the nonsense otherwise...

My opinion. Of course.
 

Swollcolb

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Pardon me! But that's ridiculous! Ain't no way under the sun they'd subject Tua to the same horrible circumstances

that Rosen was "allowed to participate in" last year!

:lol:

So let's at least be remotely honest here. And beyond that --- have a legit competition which supposedly ALWAYS

produces a superior product! But stop the nonsense otherwise...

My opinion. Of course.
He did get an opportunity, I know the supporting cast was suspect, the OL was horrible. But a lot of Rosens issues were self inflicted. Not being able to ID the mike, or grasp the offense that stuff took him off the field quicker than his poor play. And it’s never an open competition when you take a QB top 5 that guy is always gonna get a legit chance when you make that kind of investment. That’s for every single team in the NFL not just Miami
 

fansinceGWilson

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To me, playing QB is a big sequence of if/then's in which actually throwing the football is only the last event in the decision tree. You can analyse arm strenght and accuracy all you want but if the player can't absorb the decision tree AND go through it at an unbelievable rate AND throw the ball accurately using the right trajectory, you've just got yourself a run of the mill NFL QB.

Some guys can throw with accuracy and strenght but they freeze after a couple options, some will do extremely well when put in a situation where they're only required to account for a couple of reads per play(often the case in college it seems) but every tick they lose at each decision point gets them into trouble and they simply cant recover. This is exactly when fans go WTF just happened.

Rosen IMO can absolutely absorb the decision tree, get him on the white board and he'll tell you where the ball should go probably always, he'll also throw that ball perfectly every single time in a controlled environement, problem is when real bullets fly, he's losing alot of ticks between decisions and seems to panic which gets him into trouble. Script him a play where the 1st read is open and the defense did exactly what he thought it would do and you'll get a good play out of him but thats not a frequent occurence in the NFL.

Im not sure how much you can improve that processing speed to be honest... Alot of guys were drafted on arm talent alone by teams hoping it would click at some point. Alot of fans refer to "it" when talking about QBs, I just believe "it" is processing speed and that it's the hardest thing to coach in a QB if it's even doable...
I remember year ago watching a game with Jaws as color guy. For a while he would show a replay and show one of the QBs with a comment like 'that ball came out half a second too late.' After a while, he'd just say 'late throw. To me, that's where Rosen has been to date. All the talent, but one tick too late.

The flip side, every QB slows down mentally when he's been hit/sacked an entire game. I'm not sure Rosen can excel unless he's protected like Brady - I'm cautiously optimistic, which is why I want to see hm with a decent OL - but, I know of no way to teach mental quickness.
 

Smokedogg1973

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Some of those leadership skills come with experience, failures and success. I doubt Fitzpatrick was the leader he is tday at age 23. Not saying that Rosen will or won't get there, but it seems like an area that going to take some time and experience to realy tell if he's growing or not.
Leadership can't be taught. You either have it or you don't. I don't ever see Rosen developing it. He kind of reminds me of Ryan Leaf as far as being aloof and not having any real leadership qualities. Tua seems to have those leadership qualities about him in spades and it comes natural to him. That will make a huge difference to this team. Players will want to play hard for Tua and I don't think that was the case when Rosen played last year. They seemed to play a lot harder for Fitzpatrick. Just look at Russell Wilson and Dak Prescott who were drafted in the 3rd and 4th round. Part of the reason they have both been successful in the NFL is because they have those leadership qualities you want in a QB. They have the IT factor that you can't teach. Tom Brady had it coming out of Michigan. That deep desire to succeed while being a leader. That's what separates the top QB's from the rest. I really believe that Tua has all those qualities too. Talent can only take you so far. You need the intangibles as well.
 
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royalshank

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Could be me but I didn’t see any difference between Fitz and Rosen in those first 6-7 games. Both stunk and neither could put up more than 5 PPG.

Not defending Rosen but I suspect he’d have looked better at the end of the year once some stability in the football program kicked in. I don’t think we would have won 5 games though. Some of the decisions Fitz made to tuck and run for example were veteran moxie - and they helped us win a game or 2. I still think Fitz sucks *** and really don’t want to watch him again unless he’s coming off of the bench for a play or two while Tua has his cleats changed.

Or Rosen pulls a Drew Brees who looked so bad for a couple of years the Chargers drafted Eli w the first pick they had given up on him. Then he went off. You never know.
 

greasyObnoxious

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We most likely would have beaten Washington if Fitz had started the game which means we fall behind the Chargers who would have then taken Tua.
and we would have beaten the Redskins if Kenyan Drake hadn't dropped the 2PC pass like a hot potato as well
 
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