The X-factor In The Patriots Super Bowl Win Was... Brian Flores | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

The X-factor In The Patriots Super Bowl Win Was... Brian Flores

Belichick took over a Cleveland team that was outscored by 234 the year before he got there and had a positive 68 point differential while he was there.

Kosar was 3-10 the year before belichick. He was obviously past his prime

Brady did have a lot of drive to be great but belichick is the main driver.

Brady is 5-0 in the playoffs when he doesn’t throw a td pass. I wonder how they won those games.
Schotenheimer left two years before Belichick took over as Kosar was playing under Bud Carson who went 9-6-1 in year one and then got fired after 9 games, deservedly at 2-7. Jim Shofner took over and went 1-7 to finish the year. Obviously neither were HC material and the Browns were their only opportunities as HC.

It also took Belichick until his 4th season to have a winning record. Then his 5th season the team started 3-1 only to lose 10 of the last 12 games.

Should it really take the greatest HC of all-time 4 years to turn a team into a winning team when they still had Kosar who was only 29 years old when Belichick became HC? And Cleveland had been to the playoffs 5 of the previous 6 years.

My experience when I watch Brady play is he can still be effective without having to throw a TD pass which he usually does. He's able to sustain long drives and convert 3rd downs on a regular basis. And when the game is on the line in the 4th quarter he is at his best most of the time. Who cares if it was a RB that scored rather than a receiver by a pass.

I'm not denying it's a team game and Belichick is has been a great coach with Brady at QB. The two are a great fit.

But why is the "main driver" only 17-18 with NE and 54-63 overall when Brady is not playing and 237-70 (including playoffs) and 6-3 Super Bowls when he is?
 
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And Kosar was playing under Bud Carson who got fired after 9 games and Jim Shofner who went 1-7 to finish the year. Obviously neither were HC material and the Browns were their only opportunities as HC.

It also took Belichick until his 4th season to have a winning record. Then his 5th season the team started 3-1 only to lose 10 of the last 12 games.

Should it really take the greatest HC of all-time 4 years to turn a team into a winning team when they still had Kosar who was only 29 years old when Belichick became HC? And Cleveland had been to the playoffs 5 of the previous 6 years.

My experience when I watch Brady play is he can still be effective without having to throw a TD pass which he usually does. He's able to sustain long drives and convert 3rd downs on a regular basis. And when the game is on the line in the 4th quarter he is at his best most of the time. Who cares if it was a RB that scored rather than a receiver by a pass.

I'm not denying it's a team game and Belichick is has been a great coach with Brady at QB. The two are a great fit.

But why is the "main driver" only 17-18 with NE when Brady is not playing and 237-70 (including playoffs) when he is?

New England is 14-6 without Brady in the 20 most recent games. Yes they struggled when belichick first took over, but that usually happens when you take over a team and bring in your own system.

Cleveland gave up a league worst 462 points the year before he got there and scored a second worst 228 points.

Kosar wasn’t very good.


How did the Ravens do the following years after Belichick was fired? 5th,5th, 4th.
 
He went 11-5 with Matt effing Cassel as his QB. He can clearly win without Brady.
It was more of a "fluke" in the schedule in 2008 that allowed Cassel to lead NE to that record more than his stellar play or great coaching. It's the main reason Miami went from 1-15 to 11-5. Both the AFC West and NFC West were dismal in 2008.

In 2007 the AFC East was 16-24 in non-divisional games and that is with NE going 10-0. In 2008 the AFC East was 26-14 playing non-divisional games (without Brady playing) thanks to playing against AFC West and NFC West. In 2010 the AFC East was 20-20 in non-divisional games.
 
I don't know if Flores was the "X Factor" or not, but he was dialing up some fantastic defensive calls.
 
He is the X-Factor.....time for us to get a little of that coaching. The proposed staff looks very intriguing!!
 
Yes they struggled when belichick first took over, but that usually happens when you take over a team and bring in your own system.
It took McVay the entire preseason with the Rams. It also took that long when Shula became the Dolphins coach. Gregg Williams just stepped in as the Browns HC mid season taking a team that was 3-36-1 the previous 40 games and went 5-3.

History if filled with coaches turning franchises around right away.

But for Belichick you're right. It took 4 years for his system to take effect in Cleveland. Then it only lasted for one year before collapsing.

Strange that when Belichick took over the Patriots the first year they went 5-11 under Bledsoe (a proven QB) and started the next year 0-2 and then when Brady took over for an injured Bledsoe and Pats went 14-3 the rest of the season and won the Super Bowl.

So you are saying it was just "coincidence" that when Brady took over as starting QB is when Belichick's system kicked in?

BTW, I saw an interview after the Patriots beat the heavily favored Rams in the their 1st Super Bowl win. Rams tie the game 17-17 with a 1:30 left in the game. Following the kickoff the Patriots have the ball at their own 17 with 1:21 left in the game. Belichick, Brady and Bledsoe are on the sidelines. Belichick tells Brady not to take any chances with the football. Belichick walks away and Bledsoe tells Brady "F... that sling it." (may not have been exact words, but that was the meaning. Brady follows the advice of Bledsoe and 1:21 later the Patriots are SB champs. Had Brady followed Belichick's coaching that game is being decided in OT.

And those Browns became the Ravens after Belichick closed out his coaching career in Cleveland losing 10 or last 12 and was fired. Had the greatest coach in history been able to sustain his system in Cleveland would there even be a Baltimore Ravens franchise?

And I repeat, that 14-6 (13-6 actually as Brady started the game injured in) record you referred to was mostly built on the softest non-division schedule in 2008 a division (AFC East) has probably ever seen. When the only team with a winning record out of the 8 had was 9-7 and that's b/c they were 6-0 in their division that is a cupcake schedule.

Adam Gase went 10-6 in 2016 under Tannehill and Moore because the AFC East again played a cupcake non-division schedule.

I guess that makes Gase a great coach too?
 
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Yes. Brady really sling it in that super bowl performance. 0 tds and under 150 yards.

Belichick first year he took a team that had a negative 230+ point differential the year before he got there and his first year brought it down to -5.

But yea. Brady was a real good qb his first year. He really slung the ball around and made a huge difference.
 
Is it possible to teach someone to be a successful HC? I don't think it is, I don't believe there is a secret sauce. I mean obviously you can learn a lot but there's no way to know what would Bill do in a particular situation because every football game is going to present it's own unique challenges.

If being a successful coach could be taught I gotta assume Don Shula woulda told his son Mike Shula his secret sauce. Mike Shula should right now be a successful NFL head coach since he had/has unlimited access to a top 3 coach of all time. But that's just not how it works all you can do is take what you learned and incorporate it into your own philosophies.

Agree 100%, either it's there for you, or it's not...At best, working for a successful HC will make you more knowledgable at how to go upon things, but it will not teach how to be successful, let along great.

Let us hope with Flores, we finally again found that rare leader that knows what he's doing, and when to do it, while willing to continue a student of the game and learn.
 
Yes. Brady really sling it in that super bowl performance. 0 tds and under 150 yards.

Belichick first year he took a team that had a negative 230+ point differential the year before he got there and his first year brought it down to -5.

But yea. Brady was a real good qb his first year. He really slung the ball around and made a huge difference.

So both defensive game plans were good but despite the poor numbers Brady is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than Jared "Ryan Tannehill" Goff. That's the biggest difference in the game IMO. Goff missed reads and was late when he made them. He was terrible. Jury's out as he's only a 3rd year player but Jared Goff is looking like the poster child of how a high draft pick doesn't always mean success. When you hold NE to 13 points you should win 90% of the time. I'm confident Matt ****ing Moore could have played better.
 
Yes. Brady really sling it in that super bowl performance. 0 tds and under 150 yards.

Belichick first year he took a team that had a negative 230+ point differential the year before he got there and his first year brought it down to -5.

But yea. Brady was a real good qb his first year. He really slung the ball around and made a huge difference.
Final drive 0 runs, 8 passes to set up game winning FG by a QB starting in his first year, a 1:21 left in the Super Bowl with a coach telling him not to take any chances. I call that slinging it.
 
Final drive 0 runs, 8 passes to set up game winning FG by a QB starting in his first year, a 1:21 left in the Super Bowl with a coach telling him not to take any chances. I call that slinging it.

To be fair 4 of his 5 passes were short of the sticks. He completed 1 pass to Troy Brown that traveled more than 10 yds in the air, I wouldn't really call that slinging it. Without that 1 pass to Brown and his y/a goes from 6.6 (which still isn't very high) to 4.3 which is lower than Marshall Faulks rushing avg of 4.5 in that game. To say he sligned it in that final drive is very generous.
 
To be fair 4 of his 5 passes were short of the sticks. He completed 1 pass to Troy Brown that traveled more than 10 yds in the air, I wouldn't really call that slinging it. Without that 1 pass to Brown and his y/a goes from 6.6 (which still isn't very high) to 4.3 which is lower than Marshall Faulks rushing avg of 4.5 in that game. To say he sligned it in that final drive is very generous.
LOL Alright, I'm very generous. Context. For that game it was. Game plan for Belichick seems obvious it was not to have Brady win the game, but to not lose the game. Brady had thrown a total of 19 passes before that drive for 92 in the previous 58:39 seconds of the game.

It's what Brady does better than any other QB in history. Spreads the ball around, makes the right reads, accurate, methodically drives them down the field. And then hits the big play. Like Sunday when he hit Gronkowski to get down to the one. Doesn't get credit for TD pass, but that was one of the best passes I've seen given the context.
 
Is it possible to teach someone to be a successful HC? I don't think it is, I don't believe there is a secret sauce. I mean obviously you can learn a lot but there's no way to know what would Bill do in a particular situation because every football game is going to present it's own unique challenges.

If being a successful coach could be taught I gotta assume Don Shula woulda told his son Mike Shula his secret sauce. Mike Shula should right now be a successful NFL head coach since he had/has unlimited access to a top 3 coach of all time. But that's just not how it works all you can do is take what you learned and incorporate it into your own philosophies.
I'm not sure there is a conclusive answer to that one. But it is definitely possible to share information, and that's got to be the first step. It doesn't seem like Belichick shares the information upon which he is making decisions, so his coaches observe the decision but not necessarily understand the full dynamics being considered.

Most coaches share that entire process, and it's easier to put the observations into context with that information. That certainly facilitates the learning because the young coach can then assess those valuable bits of information and make informed decisions based upon the correct criteria. But if they are never told, it's more extrapolation, where they guess what they think are the important variables, and they may miss some of the important ones and not consider their impact. These muscles get flexed and now there is a muscle memory of making incomplete analyses. IMHO, that's why Belichick's coaches have been unimpressive. They make the usual amount of inaccuracies and the other coaches are so compartmentalized that the teaching isn't happening. When the older coach says it is these 5 factors you need to balance, the younger coach probably recognized 4 of them, but learning there is a 5th factor he didn't consider helps him correctly assess that situation in the future and helps him learn how to make fully informed decisions.

With Belichick's coaching tree record, it puts enormous pressure on the young coaches to know everything independently … and no one can do that. This is my fear, that Belichick has so fiercely protected his method that it stunts the learning process, which is my theory on why his coaching tree has been so unimpressive … the Belichick compartmentalization system limits and discourages teaching. He doesn't share the secret sauce. But who knows, that's my $0.02, and I could easily be wrong.
 
Is it possible to teach someone to be a successful HC? I don't think it is, I don't believe there is a secret sauce. I mean obviously you can learn a lot but there's no way to know what would Bill do in a particular situation because every football game is going to present it's own unique challenges.

If being a successful coach could be taught I gotta assume Don Shula woulda told his son Mike Shula his secret sauce. Mike Shula should right now be a successful NFL head coach since he had/has unlimited access to a top 3 coach of all time. But that's just not how it works all you can do is take what you learned and incorporate it into your own philosophies.
I'm not sure there is a conclusive answer to that one. But it is definitely possible to share information, and that's got to be the first step. It doesn't seem like Belichick shares the information upon which he is making decisions, so his coaches observe the decision but not necessarily understand the full dynamics being considered.

Most coaches share that entire process, and it's easier to put the observations into context with that information. That certainly facilitates the learning because the young coach can then assess those valuable bits of information and make informed decisions based upon the correct criteria. But if they are never told, it's more extrapolation, where they guess what they think are the important variables, and they may miss some of the important ones and not consider their impact. These muscles get flexed and now there is a muscle memory of making incomplete analyses. IMHO, that's why Belichick's coaches have been unimpressive. They make the usual amount of inaccuracies and the other coaches are so compartmentalized that the teaching isn't happening. When the older coach says it is these 5 factors you need to balance, the younger coach probably recognized 4 of them, but learning there is a 5th factor he didn't consider helps him correctly assess that situation in the future and helps him learn how to make fully informed decisions.

With Belichick's coaching tree record, it puts enormous pressure on the young coaches to know everything independently … and no one can do that. This is my fear, that Belichick has so fiercely protected his method that it stunts the learning process, which is my theory on why his coaching tree has been so unimpressive … the Belichick compartmentalization system limits and discourages teaching. He doesn't share the secret sauce. But who knows, that's my $0.02, and I could easily be wrong.
I'm not going to argue that Belichick is not a good coach. However, without Brady at QB, Belichick has been a below average HC. Bill Parcells, Pete Carroll, Marty Schotenheimer along with others have fared better with QBs other than Brady that Belichick has coached. And of course Brady has not played under any other HC other than Belichick.

The 2008 season had mostly to do with the AFC East getting to play a cupcake schedule being matched up against the AFC West and NFC West.

Out of those two divisions only the Cardinals had a winning record at 9-7 and that is because they went 6-0 within their division which was horrible. Those two divisions were so bad the NFC West went 13-33 in games outside of their division and the AFC West went 14-32; combined those two divisions went 27-65 outside of their division.

The soft schedule is how Miami went from 1-15 the year before to 11-5 that year. Miami went 7-1 against those two conferences 4-4 against everyone else. The Bills went 6-2 against those two conferences and 1-7 against everyone else.

New England went 7-1 against those two divisions, swept the Bills and split with the Dolphins and Jets to get to 11 wins. Two years later in KC, Matt Cassel put up the same starting record (10-5), made the playoffs and had a much better year passing than under Belichick.

Drew Bledsoe was 5-13 under Belichick at NE and was in his prime. Bledsoe was 32-27 under Parcells and and 26-20 under Pete Carroll in NE previous to Belichick. Bledsoe went to Buffalo and was 23-25 (14-18 under Gregg Williams; 9-7 under Mike Mularkey) as a starter and 12-10 in Dallas (under Parcells) after leaving NE.

Bernie Kosar was 30-17 under Marty Schottenheimer in Cleveland, 12-16-1 under Bud Carson and Shofner, and 11-18 under Belichick.

Vinnie Testaverde went 16-15 over while in Cleveland. Testaverde tenure with Jets that began 3 years after leaving Cleveland was 25-16 (12-2 under Parcells).

As for overall record with and without Brady...

Belichick with Brady at QB
207-60 (18 winning seasons; 0 losing seasons)
30-10 in playoffs (6-3 in Super Bowls)

Belichick without Brady at QB
54-63 (2 winning seasons; 5 losing seasons)
1-1 in playoffs (Wild Card win)

The problem may not be other coaches in Belichick's tree can't duplicate his system. The problem is they can't duplicate his QB, Tom Brady, that has brought him most of his success.
You will get no disagreement from me that Tom Brady is an elite QB and has been an invaluable part of the Patriots success. But, IMHO, those stats could be parsed out a bit to get even better information. For instance, pulling out the Cleveland stats together show a strong team building and ascent, and IMHO, that clearly supports one of our areas of agreement, that Bill Belichick is an extremely effective coach. But, that was when Belichick was a young coach starting out, and he was a better coach by the time Tom Brady came around, so I would put those years off to the side. Those Cleveland years he won this many games each season: 6, 7, 7, 11, 5. With the exception of the last year (1995) when everything fell apart, he was showing a pretty normal and average coaching ascent the first three years and a real breakthrough in year four … not too dissimilar to many coaches. But, part of that was getting the Browns to a different place roster-wise and mind-set-wise. Moving to Baltimore in the middle of the night was why he lost his job. But he learned.

Fast forward to when he became coach of the Patriots, and with the exception of his very first season of 5 wins, and his third season of 9 wins, he has had double digit wins every season from 2001 through 2018. So Tom Brady's first season was Belichick's second season, but that season started with Drew Bledsoe as QB for the first part of the year. It was the breakthrough 11 win season and glory ensued for both of them. So sure, there's a correlation with Brady, and I'm not denying that. But in 2008, the lone year of Dolphins glory, when QB Chad Pennington and HC Tony Sparano inexplicably led us to win the AFC East with an 11-5 record, the Patriots--without Brady all year from injury--also went 11-5. Using career backup Tom Cassel at QB Belichick managed to make the guy look great and keep the machine rolling. We may have won the AFC East on tiebreakers, but essentially we tied for the division crown with a Patriots team that suffered only a small dropoff in production without Tom Brady. To me, that's the only year we have to really compare Belichick and Brady, because we have data on both sides of it with similar talent.

That year, 2008, is a baseball statisticians dream because it's a great Wins Against Replacements (WAR) statistic. The year before (2007) they won 16 games, so a 5 game dropoff, and in the year after (2009) they won only 10 games, so another 1 game dropoff. This suggests the talent was declining. With a starting point of 16 wins (regular season perfection and the high mark ever for both Belichick and Brady) and an ending point of 10 wins (low water mark for Brady), the middle of that decline should have been 13 wins. It obviously doesn't work like that, because rosters and training rooms instantly change rather than steadily decline, but our expectation would have been somewhere in the neighborhood of those 13 wins expected. It looks like Tom Brady is worth at least 2 wins (possibly more). To have the team that Belichick built be operating at 11 wins with a backup QB who has been a backup QB his whole career even in college, seems like a tremendous feat.

Don't get me wrong, I'll be very happy when Tom Brady retires. But, I'll be even happier when Bill Belichick retires, and if one happens first, I'm hoping it's Belichick. There's no denying that they're both truly exceptional and together they're at a level we have been unable to reach.
 
AdamC13 killed it with that post. Bravo my friend

Brady is the only thing BB has that no one else has and may never have. Best Quaterback ever and it’s not even close.

cannot agree with this at all
 
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