Tua Versus Allen

[SF Dolphin Fan]

Eventually this needs to be discussed. Currently, Tua ranks higher than Josh Allen in QBR. Granted, Allen has played every game while Tua has missed time due to injuries.

Let's start with the obvious. I think even Buffalo fans would agree with this. I could pull stats if need be.

Tua's rookie year >Allen's rookie year
Tua year two > Allen's year two

I don't think that's debatable. I don't think it's that close even.

Now, I think this is a little closer.

Allen year three > Tua year two

Fantastic year for Allen. No doubt an elite year. Tua has had a really good second year, with obviously more games to play. If he continues hitting close to 80 percent of his passes down the stretch, maybe this becomes a legitimate discussion.

Here's what's interesting.

Tua year two = Allen year four.

Allen has clearly regressed. His advantage over Tua this year is durability. Other than that, I think Tua has been the better quarterback. Allen has actually cost Buffalo a few games.

I'm not sure why the media isn't dissecting Allen's meltdown versus New England on that last drive. No doubt, the media is all over that if it were Tua.

To me, that drive epitomizes where Allen is as a quarterback. He makes a fantastic throw to Diggs to start the drive. Buffalo moves the ball into scoring position and then...

Allen misses an open receiver in the endzone. The ball sails on him. Granted that was the windy side of the field, so maybe he gets a pass there.

Then, under pressure, Allen turns his entire body around, his eyes facing the opposite end zone. Once he turns back around, his eyes are still looking down. He doesn't see a wide open Diggs inside the 10-yard line.

We've seen Tua under pressure, not only avoid the rush, but keep his eyes down field, and making plays. The Hollins reception as an example.

Final play of that dive, an all-out blitz by NE. As a fourth year quarterback, Allen has to recognize that the middle of the field will be open. There was a receiver wide open. Instead, Allen essentially throws into double coverage and the pass is knocked down.

I know that's one drive, but a lot went wrong there. Allen makes one of those three plays and Buffalo likely wins and advances to 8-4. New England would be 8-5.

I know I'm a Miami fan, but I think this is a legit discussion.

 

[PhinFan1968]

Lot to unpack there.

Allen’s better than Tua in:
- Physicality and running. He can shed tacklers and is deadly on the run. Also very good at throwing on the run, Tua not-so-much yet.
- Armstrength. Allows him to make some throws Tua will likely never be able to make.
- Busted plays. He can improvise busted plays better than Tua.

Tua’s better than Allen in:
- Accuracy. Not simply completion %, but overall ball placement and catchability.
- Pocket awareness. As you referred, he’s more fluid and steadfast in pocket movement.
- Unflappability. Allen has a steady history of failing plays when in a crunch time type situation…Tua stays the same, and improves late-game.

That’s just some quick thoughts off the top of my head. There’s a lot more I’m sure…those just stand out IMO.

I‘d agree with your seasonal comparisons, but good luck getting a Bills fan to agree lol.

Great thread idea, looking forward to it.

 

[SF Dolphin Fan]

Lot to unpack there.

Allen’s better than Tua in:
- Physicality and running. He can shed tacklers and is deadly on the run. Also very good at throwing on the run, Tua not-so-much yet.
- Armstrength. Allows him to make some throws Tua will likely never be able to make.
- Busted plays. He can improvise busted plays better than Tua.

Tua’s better than Allen in:
- Accuracy. Not simply completion %, but overall ball placement and catchability.
- Pocket awareness. As you referred, he’s more fluid and steadfast in pocket movement.
- Unflappability. Allen has a steady history of failing plays when in a crunch time type situation…Tua stays the same, and improves late-game.

That’s just some quick thoughts off the top of my head. There’s a lot more I’m sure…those just stand out IMO.

I‘d agree with your seasonal comparisons, but good luck getting a Bills fan to agree lol.

Great thread idea, looking forward to it.

Agree with this.

From my vantage point, comfortably on my couch, Tua is starting to win games for Miami. He is playing well with far less talent than Allen has.

Better quarterback play and I think Buffalo is 9-3. But I do recognize that Allen has tantalizing physical abilities.

 

[MARINO1384]

Only reason Allen is so hyped up is due to what could be. He’s yet to show that ability with consistency.

 

[The Bopkin]

A big question that occurs to me- was Allen's year three, that great year, an anomaly? Or is this regression year an anomaly?
If Year 4 for him looks a lot like years 1 and 2, can we say that's who he really is, and maybe he just had some magic in year 3?
I don't know, the sample size to discuss his seasons and who he is, is still small.
He has such physical gifts, he is going to continue to be cut slack until he just fizzles out- or becomes Brett Favre.
He is like so many players that have great physical gifts- they get chance after chance, get excused and excused, because of their physical abilities.
Joe Montana, Tom Brady, among others, aren't physical specimens. Zach Thomas wasn't a physical specimen, but there's no arguing those guys are players.
At the end of the day, who can play consistently? Jury's still out, but great topic for debate for fun.

 

[finmann]

Not a fan of Allen at all, he's got the pieces around him right now to make a SB run, and yet he has regressed. If I might be so bold, I would say the only thing holding back Buffalo is the play of their QB. Tua on the other hand has done more with alot less for sure.....give me Tua any day.

 

[67Stang]

The jury is still out on Allen. While he made a huge jump last year and the beginning of this year, Jacksonville showed a formula of how to make him very beatable. He is not a very good pocket passer. Keep him in the pocket, eliminate his big throws when breaking the pocket, and try to limit his runs. He is going to get a few runs in, just by the nature of the game. That is fine. It is very similar to why Kaepernick had less success after 2013 and did not win nearly as many games. When you force athletes to be pocket QBs, they are not nearly as effective. Also those skills diminish over time, and more often than not land you on the injury report. Pure pocket passers have longer success and stay in the league much longer as well.

 

[srdnaty]

A big question that occurs to me- was Allen's year three, that great year, an anomaly? Or is this regression year an anomaly?
If Year 4 for him looks a lot like years 1 and 2, can we say that's who he really is, and maybe he just had some magic in year 3?
I don't know, the sample size to discuss his seasons and who he is, is still small.
He has such physical gifts, he is going to continue to be cut slack until he just fizzles out- or becomes Brett Favre.
He is like so many players that have great physical gifts- they get chance after chance, get excused and excused, because of their physical abilities.
Joe Montana, Tom Brady, among others, aren't physical specimens. Zach Thomas wasn't a physical specimen, but there's no arguing those guys are players.
At the end of the day, who can play consistently? Jury's still out, but great topic for debate for fun.

He's regressed but not to year 1-2 levels.
Last year he threw for 4,500 with 39 td and 10 picks. Rating of 107.2. QBR of 76.6. Completion % 69%.

This year he's on pace for 4,300 with 35 td and 13 picks. Rating of 97.5. Completion % 66%.

He's regressed but he's playing much closer to last year than his first two years.

Comparing him to Tua is ridiculous at this point.

Allen can put up 30 consistently and has won playoff games. Let's wait to see once this line immproves to see what Tua can do.

Jury is still out on both but Allen has a better resume at this point.

Let's all take a deep breath.

 

[claytonduper]

Agree with this.

From my vantage point, comfortably on my couch, Tua is starting to win games for Miami. He is playing well with far less talent than Allen has.

Far, far less talent across the line, running game and available receivers. What about our great O-line coaches?? How can one compare apples to oranges?? How about the outside noise of numerous critics and even his own FO/owner/coach.

 

[juniorseau55]

Lot to unpack there.

Allen’s better than Tua in:
- Physicality and running. He can shed tacklers and is deadly on the run. Also very good at throwing on the run, Tua not-so-much yet.
- Armstrength. Allows him to make some throws Tua will likely never be able to make.
- Busted plays. He can improvise busted plays better than Tua.

Tua’s better than Allen in:
- Accuracy. Not simply completion %, but overall ball placement and catchability.
- Pocket awareness. As you referred, he’s more fluid and steadfast in pocket movement.
- Unflappability. Allen has a steady history of failing plays when in a crunch time type situation…Tua stays the same, and improves late-game.

That’s just some quick thoughts off the top of my head. There’s a lot more I’m sure…those just stand out IMO.

I‘d agree with your seasonal comparisons, but good luck getting a Bills fan to agree lol.

Great thread idea, looking forward to it.

Allen this year isn't playing nearly how he was last year. If we compare Tua to how Allen played last year then Tua has long way to go. This season both Qb's have the same qb rating so arguing who is better this season isn't really much of an argument.

 

[fansinceGWilson]

Allen this year isn't playing nearly how he was last year. If we compare Tua to how Allen played last year then Tua has long way to go. This season both Qb's have the same qb rating so arguing who is better this season isn't really much of an argument.

First question is which year is the 'real' Allen?

 

[juniorseau55]

First question is which year is the 'real' Allen?

G at this moment it is hard to tell. He is on pace on beating his interception record at the moment if he keeps it up, but he's completing above 65% of his passes however. I really don't want to talk bad about Allen since he averages over 2 td's and almost throws for 400 yards in each and every game he plays against us lol.

 

[danstilldaman]

First question is which year is the 'real' Allen?

Exactly this, but that's not been the story that's been portrayed over the past year so all we hear are crickets when it comes to his whole body of work. Because he's given the benefit because of his physical presence and so called potential unlike quarterbacks not to be named.

 

[rafael]

I'm not a fan of Allen's game. Personally, accuracy and more specifically consistent accuracy, has always been what I consider one of the most important QB traits. IMO it is one of the traits that you'll see in those QBs that have long careers at the top. I value QBs with long careers playing at a high level b/c it gives your team multiple chances to win championships. Guys with inconsistent accuracy, but plus physical traits tend to have huge individual years but not as many years of high level play. I think of a guy like Cam Newton. He was NFL MVP caliber player for a short stint, but rather quickly became the guy that wasn't quite good enough. Guys like Allen and Lamar Jackson could easily have a Newton type career.

Now I get the impression that Allen and Jackson work at their craft in a more dedicated manner then Newton ever has so I think their chances of becoming that HOF level QB are better. But I see consistent accuracy as one of those things that is really tough to develop in the pros. QBs tend to either have it or they don't. IMO both Allen and Jackson have both improved b/c of how hard they work. I respect that about them, but I think their ceiling in terms of consistent accuracy is limited. I've been impressed by Allen's 65% completion % this season. I expected him to drop more into that 62%-63% range. I think it's a testament to the work he's put in that it's as high as it is. If he can end up with a career completion % of 65% or greater than it bodes well for him. If he regresses down to that 62%-63% range then I think he's more likely to have one of those careers where he's always good, but just falls short.

I know people look at QBs with size, speed and arm strength and think of them as having higher ceilings, but IMO the highest ceiling is in players with consistent accuracy, fast processing speed and drive to be the best. I think that Allen, Jackson and Tua all have that drive so I find them easy to root for individually. But IMO there is no defense for the perfect pass and I believe that over their careers that Tua is more likely to throw that perfect pass more often. And throwing that perfect pass more often makes it more likely to happen in those key moments. The one caveat is the durability questions surrounding Tua, but my impression is that Tua has done a much better job of protecting himself of late. If he can continue to do that then I like his odds of avoiding big hits and injuries.

 

[KingHydra]

Lot to unpack there.

Allen’s better than Tua in:
- Physicality and running. He can shed tacklers and is deadly on the run. Also very good at throwing on the run, Tua not-so-much yet.
- Armstrength. Allows him to make some throws Tua will likely never be able to make.
- Busted plays. He can improvise busted plays better than Tua.

Tua’s better than Allen in:
- Accuracy. Not simply completion %, but overall ball placement and catchability.
- Pocket awareness. As you referred, he’s more fluid and steadfast in pocket movement.
- Unflappability. Allen has a steady history of failing plays when in a crunch time type situation…Tua stays the same, and improves late-game.

That’s just some quick thoughts off the top of my head. There’s a lot more I’m sure…those just stand out IMO.

I‘d agree with your seasonal comparisons, but good luck getting a Bills fan to agree lol.

Great thread idea, looking forward to it.

Well said. They are 2 completely different types of players.