Two things can be true about this team | Page 4 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Two things can be true about this team

Here are the two things I think

If we have tua all year we make wildcard and make playoffs third straight year. Which for this franchise is impressive. Please don’t tell me he wouldn’t beat titans and colts. I am not including Seahawks
So we be 7-5 and in great position. For wildcard

But

We would lose in the first round again

Now we are not going to make the playoffs this year.

This rebuild has topped out as a wildcard team.

Something else I think . This might piss off the time dolphin fans who think back to the 90s as great teams.

The team we have now is the team pretty much that we had in the 90s with Marino.

Always passing.
Oline not good at running
Defense mediocre
Couldn’t beat Buffalo

Only difference was Marino was hall of famer and won one round on the playoffs most years in the 90s. But he could not do more than that.

Tua is not a hall of fame player and his best is just getting us in playoffs (yea I know this year we won’t be in them because he was hurt )

When we had Marino
We got crushed so many times in the second round of playoffs because no running game or no defense to keep score low.

It’s the same thing now. Except tua isn’t as good as Marino so we are just stuck getting 7 or 6 seed and losing in playoffs.

But the teams from the 90s and now are focused on passing
Inconsistent defense or mediocre
Inconsistency with running game or none
Good receivers

It’s like watching same team and same problems I saw in the late 90s

How many cold weather games can we lose in the 90s and now? All because the teams are more physical. Then and now

This is so fixable but the guys they hire just won’t fix it. They think they know better
We suck in the trenches. Even when we made playoffs 7-out of 10 years in the 90s where we ever strong in the trenches?

These last three years with McDaniel . 2 making playoffs. Where we ever strong in trenches. No to both.

****ing so simple and these are making same mistakes that this franchise made in the 90s. Sorry but we usually were a wildcard team in 90s and would get killed in second round. Only getting there cause Marino. Tua is good enough to get us a 6 or 7 .seed. He isn’t Marino. But this coulda been addressed back then. And it shoulda been addressed with this current team.

Especially when you are trying to do the same exact thing but without a hall of fame qb. That is not a knock on tua. He is good enough to not be the problem. But against top teams he needs help to be part of Solution. .
Great post.

This team isn’t good enough to beat really good teams, and the QB isn’t good enough to overcome the team’s deficiencies. Marino was so good that he could often carry those teams to victory over good opponents, but as you pointed out, it still broke down when they faced that next level of opponent.

I fondly remember the 1990 and 1992 teams as being really good teams, but whenever I look back at their actually rankings, especially defensively, I’m always reminded that they really weren’t great teams that fell short, but rather decent teams with lots of flaws and a great QB, that were nowhere near as good as the top tier teams. Though had that 1993 team stayed healthy they may have actually been a really good team.
 
“ Why did they tank for a QB and then fail to build an offense around their young QB in 2020 and 2021?”

Umm… Grier? The Dolphins certainly invested considerable resources in 2020-2021 to build an offense around Tua, Grier just didn’t hit on enough players.

2020
Rd 1 - Austin Jackson OT
Rd 2 - Robert Hunt OG
Rd 4 - Solomon Kindley OG

2021
Rd 1 - Jaylen Waddle WR
Rd 2 - Liam Eichenberg OT/OG
Rd 3 - Hunter Long TE

That's not nearly enough when building from scratch. A QB should not have been "added" to what we had in 2020. We didn't have the Coaching, the OL, the running game or the receiving options to sustain a developing QB.

Good organizations add young QBs to teams that are already strong. It's almost always an embarrassingly bad decision to throw a young QB into a horrible situation. The best you can usually hope for when doing that is the QB maybe makes it out and has success somewhere else.

Here were the weapons we had between '20-'21:

RB
Salvon Ahmed
Matt Breida
Myles Gaskin
Patrick Laird
DeAndre Washington
Duke Johnson
Philip Lindsay

WR
Lynn Bowden
Isaiah Ford
Jakeem Grant
Mack Hollins
DeVante Parker
Malcolm Perry
Preston Williams
Allen Hurns


Adding a rookie Jaylen Waddle to that in year #2 doesn't change very much. He was instantly the best option and that's just pathetic.

We had young, developing pieces like Ajax on the OL with veterans like Jesse Davis featuring as starters (who eventually got Tua's ribs broken against the Bills!).

Eichenberg was added in year #2 as a R2 rookie. Big whoop. He would've needed grooming too even if he was destined for future success. Twisting the knife even further, he obviously turned out a failure. And Solomon Kindley was just a big fatso taken in R4. It's not like anyone would've expected he was going to be awesome immediately upon being installed.

Many of the pieces we needed to contribute didn't. That's correct, but Ajax was the best OT we could've added (after using #5 on Tua) and it would've been utterly inconceivable for the Dolphins not to have taken an OT in 2020.

But we were always a bad team, even on paper. Nothing about the 2020 team's offensive staff / roster was anything but trash and year #2 was mostly the same: Co-OCs, a OL Coach way out of his depth (Lemuel Jeanpierre), a smattering of overrated WRs who contributed nothing (Hurns, Wilson, Fuller, etc.), etc.

It's all a lesson in why tanking (for a QB) is stupid.
 
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Sadly I've been in this turmoil and anguish a little longer than you. Im 57. I remember sitting in Jacksonville thinking we were going to run the table and go to the superbowl. 62-7 drubbing. I couldnt move. I literally couldn't stand up to leave the stadium. I was heartbroken when we lost to the chargers in the 95. That 94 team was stacked and we were on our way ( again). Yes- i thought for sure 13 would bring one home for us.

The Phins have taken years off my life. As I tell my wife, next year is our year, and she always says yep, next year......
That 1994 team that blew the 21-6 lead in the divisional round .vs the Chargers was one of my favorite Dolphins teams, but they were probably far more fun than they were good. Their run defense had good numbers, but that was partly because they were one of the worst pass D’s in the league so everyone threw against them, and they were in the bottom half of the league in most points allowed. At the very least, they were going to get murdered by the 49ers in the Super Bowl.

But, that Stoyanovich missed FG as time expired at the end of 1994 Divisional game was the last time I truly lost my **** after a Dolphins loss.
 
For most of them I think we can all agree, we have no clue. And I dont think Grier did either.

Id speculate an answer to the first question , which brings up another question that coincides with some of the other questions.

Yes, we were in a rebuild, but I think that the original plan in Griers mind was that Josh Rosen would be our next QB. We traded away a valuable pick for the kid, but then didnt build the team around him. Threw him to the wolves and Flores wrote the kid off as a flop (As we all know, Flores is the end all be all of QB evaluations)

We ended up tanking and drafting a QB. Ok, I see people saying Flores didnt want Tua. Im not buying that one bit. If Flo was pounding the table for another QB do you really think Grier would have told him to go to hell, live with the one Im getting you? I call bullshit there. Grier doesnt have those kind of balls. (If he has any at all)

Yes, this was the START of the rebuild. All of the other questions you pose are legit, and hell, we all wonder the same damn thing.

The answer to all of them is easy.

Grier has no vision, doesnt know what it takes to build a championship team, is horrible evaluating talent at Oline and linebackers (But admittedly great at finding RBs and decent on DBs)

We need a new GM that knows what he wants and makes it happen.

Good thoughts!

I actually think it's more grim than that. Grier isn't on the hook because he does what the Owner wants and in this case, we're an organization whose primary goal for the last 2.5 decades has been to find a QB. With the Dolphins organization having sat through the entire era of statue-esque pocket passers between the late '90s on into the early 2010s without anything like one of our own, Ross' #1 goal was to bring a Franchise QB to Miami.

I think Grier took a shot on Josh Rosen because...why the heck not?! If your Owner wants a QB, you turn over every stone. A R2 pick isn't worth as much as a look at someone with an elite arm who was taken Top-10 the year before.

The "tank" was one of the stupidest things ever. No franchise ever builds a winning culture by trying to hack the draft and purge their roster. It actually drove players away rather than building the kind of winning culture they should've been looking to instill. That kind of strategy was antithetical to what the better teams actually do anyway.

The tank was always going to create as many problems as it did draft picks / dollars anyway. It was focused only on providing the necessary draft capital to go and get the QB they wanted (which itself turned out to fail when they couldn't pry the #1 pick away from the Bengals to select Burrow).

You only get excited about hacking the draft if you think you can take a quantity-over-quality approach. That's not a good strategy when critical decisions shape a franchise. It's those critical decisions that separate you, not having a few more draft picks.

You'd never want to put your young QB in such a bad situation anyway. You'd never saddle your HC with such limitation. It's fundamentally a bad idea and Miami's still living in its aftermath.

Still though, the only real goal Ross has (and has ever had) is to bring a QB to Miami. It's no surprise that they've moved heaven and Earth to try and build everything they can around Tua to support him. Problem is, they think WRs are the answer when in reality it's always been the other way around. You can't short-change the OL. This team was its best when it was a physical football team in the early-70s. Until they start playing strong defense and running the ball nothing much will really matter.

Adding Tua's strengths to that kind of team would be incredible but they should've tried to build that first and add the QB second like so many of the great teams have.

Most all Super Bowl contenders in the last 15 years are good teams that added the QB later (Purdy, Mahomes, Stafford, Hurts, Wilson, etc.). It's an incredibly short list of teams who add a Joe Burrow after a terrible year and end up rebuilding into instant success. Even then, it usually falls apart quickly.
 
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I did a lengthy study a few yrs back on teams that made it to the SB, not just winners, the previous 20 yrs. IIRC, almost ALL teams had at least 3 of 5 characteristics - top HC, top QB, top 10 OL, top 10 O, top 10 D. Yes, there is some overlap. Again, IIRC, only one team violated that rule - the Pats and they were just outside top 10 in 2 categories.

I like the idea....how did you define a "top HC?"

For that matter, what was the metric for QBs, passer rating?
 
disagree. I'm not going to debate Miami's OL/DL need upgrades. I'd lose that debate. But, I think there is enough talent on the team to be 7-5 or 8-6, *IF* the OC/DC were good at scheme/adjustments/and plain 'ol NFL basics, even WITH TT's absence.
Given that, I think fans have seen enough of Mcd to know he won't change without a gun to his head.
Sorry but I don't believe having a gm that hasn't done diddly for us a a bad head coach
Great post.

This team isn’t good enough to beat really good teams, and the QB isn’t good enough to overcome the team’s deficiencies. Marino was so good that he could often carry those teams to victory over good opponents, but as you pointed out, it still broke down when they faced that next level of opponent.

I fondly remember the 1990 and 1992 teams as being really good teams, but whenever I look back at their actually rankings, especially defensively, I’m always reminded that they really weren’t great teams that fell short, but rather decent teams with lots of flaws and a great QB, that were nowhere near as good as the top tier teams. Though had that 1993 team stayed healthy they may have actually been a really good team.
Sounds reasonable
 
I like the idea....how did you define a "top HC?"

For that matter, what was the metric for QBs, passer rating?

Fudged on those 2. I used 'top 10' as my definition for 'top HC' and 'top QB' using what I considered consensus. I realize that's fuzzy, but I Googled 'NFL top QBs' and took the avg of 3-4 sites. I found that the rankings at those sites were surprisingly consistent.
 
I didn’t take your reply as hate either. It’s just as simple as you stated: drafting & coaching.

I still enjoyed Bane’s comparison of the 90’s. These teams are just not built to win in December & beyond.

The problem is we seem cursed when it comes to timing. We get JJ who wanted to implement the ground game but does it by taking away audibles from one of the most brilliant QBs ever to play.

Parcells comes in & takes us from 1-15 to 11-5 but acquires a broken Pennington to save us & drafts a black White for the future. (Black White is just a play on words, people- no racism implication intended)

Last year seemed like we could outscore any team in the league but McD’s Tua intermediate pass game gets figured out & the McGenius turns out to be a McOne-Gameplan-Wonder/can’t adjust.

If it’s not a curse, it’s terrible luck. If it’s none of the above, the freckle-faced alien playing our simulation is one sadistic prick.
Miami has not had a complete team since the 70s. The '82 team was still good enough to nearly win the Super Bowl. Marino shattered records in '84 but lost the SB because the 49ers had a stronger overall team, and the team started going downhill.

Post Shula/Marino, from JJ to Parcells, the emphasis was mostly on the defense and the o-line, then RBs, WRs and TEs, with the QB position being mostly an afterthought. This resulted in teams occasionally being competitive with the top teams, but without enough talented offensive playmakers, they usually couldn't score enough to beat those good teams.

IMO, Ross had the chance to make this a complete team again and turn it into a contender, but he blew it. All he had to do was to hire a new GM that would add the offensive playmakers that the team desperately needed. That, plus possibly a new OC, could have helped them score more TDs instead of too many FGs. Sparano wasn't great, but the team played hard for him; he just needed a better offense.

But, Ross kept Ireland, fired Sparano, and hired Joe Philbin. Although Philbin was an offensive coach, he wanted finesse rather than old-school toughness and physicality, and Miami has been a weak team dominated by tough, physical teams ever since. And now, this current regime is even weaker and more finesse than Philbin's team. The team is now the complete opposite from when Ross took over. They have the passing game that Sparano was missing, but their o-line and defense is much worse.

Until Ross cleans house and hires a new GM who wants to build a tough physical team that's strong in the trenches, nothing will change. This finesse philosophy seems to work with other teams, but only because they add finesse to an already strong foundation. In Miami however, they've emphasized the finesse but ignored the strong foundation part.
 
That 1994 team that blew the 21-6 lead in the divisional round .vs the Chargers was one of my favorite Dolphins teams, but they were probably far more fun than they were good. Their run defense had good numbers, but that was partly because they were one of the worst pass D’s in the league so everyone threw against them, and they were in the bottom half of the league in most points allowed. At the very least, they were going to get murdered by the 49ers in the Super Bowl.

But, that Stoyanovich missed FG as time expired at the end of 1994 Divisional game was the last time I truly lost my **** after a Dolphins loss.
We also lost Kirby and Byers to injuries that year. They were killing it underneath
 
We also lost Kirby and Byers to injuries that year. They were killing it underneath
The David Woodley super bowl got me when Shula refused to insert Strock . And oh yes Kim Bokamper handing off to Joe Theisman
 
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