Very tough call facing Miami Dolphins as the DeVonta Smith/Ja’Marr Chase debate rages | Page 17 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Very tough call facing Miami Dolphins as the DeVonta Smith/Ja’Marr Chase debate rages

Mach2

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Im still having a hard time with people complaining about his weight, nevermind history or projections. What difference would 10-15 pounds really do over a 6'1" frame that'd make him so much more likely to do well in the NFL?
I don't mean any disrespect, but have you ever competed against a guy who outweighs you by 20 lbs in an organized physical sport? Boxing, wrestling, football? I have.

It isn't impossible to overcome, but all other things being equal, you stand a good chance of taking a butt whoopin.

I realize these guys are not normal guys. They are some of the top athletes in the world, but don't completely dismiss the realities of physical competition.
 

Feverdream

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I don't mean any disrespect, but have you ever competed against a guy who outweighs you by 20 lbs in an organized physical sport? Boxing, wrestling, football? I have.

It isn't impossible to overcome, but all other things being equal, you stand a good chance of taking a butt whoopin.

I realize these guys are not normal guys. They are some of the top athletes in the world, but don't completely dismiss the realities of physical competition.
BINGO

In College, these smaller players tend to win battles against bigger players because those bigger players are just not very good athletes sometimes... they are younger, less talented... but in the NFL, this is rare.

You may be a really tough 165 lbs, but that other guy is a really tough 205.

Good luck.
 

NBP81

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I don't mean any disrespect, but have you ever competed against a guy who outweighs you by 20 lbs in an organized physical sport? Boxing, wrestling, football? I have.

It isn't impossible to overcome, but all other things being equal, you stand a good chance of taking a butt whoopin.

I realize these guys are not normal guys. They are some of the top athletes in the world, but don't completely dismiss the realities of physical competition.
How about DEs that go against LTs? There's much more than a 20 pounds difference there... and the physical confrontation is much more violent ...
 

Mach2

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How about DEs that go against LTs? There's much more than a 20 pounds difference there... and the physical confrontation is much more violent ...
True, but in that case all other things are not equal.

DEs are, generally, way better overall athletes, than OTs. Quicker, faster, etc. Look at a guy like Charles Harris, who was not a better athlete. He was overmatched.

That is certainly not the case with NFL DBs.
 

NBP81

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True, but in that case all other things are not equal.

DEs are, generally, way better overall athletes, than OTs. Quicker, faster, etc. Look at a guy like Charles Harris, who was not a better athlete. He was overmatched.

That is certainly not the case with NFL DBs.
It isnt, but if a guy dominated in that departement in the SEC, and by dominated I mean by being the best at it, I really dont see how NFL DBs are so much better that the guy goes from absolute best to not NFL viable...? Do you really think 15 pounds would really change anything here? Especially given that he really doesnt rely on strenght at all to beat press, he beats it with technique and quickness.
 

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I don't mean any disrespect, but have you ever competed against a guy who outweighs you by 20 lbs in an organized physical sport? Boxing, wrestling, football? I have.

It isn't impossible to overcome, but all other things being equal, you stand a good chance of taking a butt whoopin.

I realize these guys are not normal guys. They are some of the top athletes in the world, but don't completely dismiss the realities of physical competition.
By your logic all offensive lineman should just be as heavy as possible because getting outweighed by 20 lbs is a death knell, apparently.

We're not talking about two dudes going mano a mano every snap like a DE against an OT here. We're talking about the first 5 yards of a route and that's IF they can even get their hands on him to push him off his path. In reality it's more of a Rocky chasing a chicken scenario going on there which is why college DCs just gave up trying.

Maybe NFL corners will have more success, but by and large they suck at man press too for the most part.
 

Mach2

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It isnt, but if a guy dominated in that departement in the SEC, and by dominated I mean by being the best at it, I really dont see how NFL DBs are so much better that the guy goes from absolute best to not NFL viable...? Do you really think 15 pounds would really change anything here? Especially given that he really doesnt rely on strenght at all to beat press, he beats it with technique and quickness.
I've never said he isn't viable. In fact, I don't think I have ever said anything remotely negative about the guy.

My arguement has always primarily centered on positional value based on draft position for WRs in general.

I have also said there may be exceptions to that philosophy, based on physical traits (Calvin Johnson for example). Smith's stature is just a negative ancillary factor here for me.

If you believe his quickness is that much greater than NFL corners, that's fine. I don't happen to agree, but I'm not going to argue that, as it is debateable.

I also don't think, as some keep suggesting, that it is a binary outcome of elite or bust. There's a huge gap between the two.

I don't dismiss the positives out of hand. I just wish others wouldn't dismiss the other things to which I've pointed.

It's like there's no middle ground.
 

Mach2

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By your logic all offensive lineman should just be as heavy as possible because getting outweighed by 20 lbs is a death knell, apparently.

We're not talking about two dudes going mano a mano every snap like a DE against an OT here. We're talking about the first 5 yards of a route and that's IF they can even get their hands on him to push him off his path. In reality it's more of a Rocky chasing a chicken scenario going on there which is why college DCs just gave up trying.

Maybe NFL corners will have more success, but by and large they suck at man press too for the most part.
see post #244. It isn't as simple as all that.
 

NBP81

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I've never said he isn't viable. In fact, I don't think I have ever said anything remotely negative about the guy.

My arguement has always primarily centered on positional value based on draft position for WRs in general.

I have also said there may be exceptions to that philosophy, based on physical traits (Calvin Johnson for example). Smith's stature is just a negative ancillary factor here for me.

If you believe his quickness is that much greater than NFL corners, that's fine. I don't happen to agree, but I'm not going to argue that, as it is debateable.

I also don't think, as some keep suggesting, that it is a binary outcome of elite or bust. There's a huge gap between the two.

I don't dismiss the positives out of hand. I just wish others wouldn't dismiss the other things to which I've pointed.

It's like there's no middle ground.
Its not about being right or wrong or looking for a middle ground... I have yet to come across a valid reason why weight matters for WRs. Height used to be a big thing for QBs, picking a 6' QB in the 1st wasnt simply unheard of, hell Wilson went in the 3rd because of that... Teams have realized that height doesnt nearly matter as much as they thought and all of a sudden, you've got 3x 6' QBs getting picked in the top5 in 3 consecutive years...

I'll agree to disagree as much as you guys want, but still patiently waiting for some evidence that there's any correlation between WR weight and NFL success...
 

Mach2

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Its not about being right or wrong or looking for a middle ground... I have yet to come across a valid reason why weight matters for WRs. Height used to be a big thing for QBs, picking a 6' QB in the 1st wasnt simply unheard of, hell Wilson went in the 3rd because of that... Teams have realized that height doesnt nearly matter as much as they thought and all of a sudden, you've got 3x 6' QBs getting picked in the top5 in 3 consecutive years...

I'll agree to disagree as much as you guys want, but still patiently waiting for some evidence that there's any correlation between WR weight and NFL success...
I think what you really want is proof. That is not the same thing as evidence. History itself is evidence.

I know you know Wilson is an outlier, so you can use those examples all you want.

Let me know when 50% of top QBs are relatively small. Then we can revisit the debate.

Hopefully Tua will change the perception even more. I know we can agree on that.

Besides, I already told you my stance on drafting WRs, high rd1 irrespective of size.
 

Mach2

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Its not about being right or wrong or looking for a middle ground... I have yet to come across a valid reason why weight matters for WRs. Height used to be a big thing for QBs, picking a 6' QB in the 1st wasnt simply unheard of, hell Wilson went in the 3rd because of that... Teams have realized that height doesnt nearly matter as much as they thought and all of a sudden, you've got 3x 6' QBs getting picked in the top5 in 3 consecutive years...

I'll agree to disagree as much as you guys want, but still patiently waiting for some evidence that there's any correlation between WR weight and NFL success...
just as an addendum, it would be nearly impossible to find a corralation for successful 165 lb guys, because the sample size is nearly zero.

You also know things like that are not, necessarily, linear either. Plotting data points is not all that reliable when dealing with extremes.
 

NBP81

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Besides, I already told you my stance on drafting WRs, high rd1 irrespective of size.
I know your stance on that, but you're the one who quoted my post talking specifically about Devonta Smith's weight...
just as an addendum, it would be nearly impossible to find a corralation for successful 165 lb guys, because the sample size is nearly zero.
Smith is 175... I dont think it matters all that much but some seem to think 10 pounds makes a big dif, so thought I'd make the correction anyway.
 

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One thing I find interesting in this debate, is that you can almost guarantee that is the poster is a Smith fan, they want to go with his program weight of 175... even though they realize that almost all scouts scoff at this listing, and they know that Alabama has a history of lying about players weights and heights-- like they did with Tua.

It is VERY unlikely that Smith really weighs 175, and the fact that he refused to be weighed at the Senior Bowl was an excellent indicator of this. Ducking being weighed is pretty clearly a sign that something is being covered up.
 

Mach2

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I know your stance on that, but you're the one who quoted my post talking specifically about Devonta Smith's weight...

Smith is 175... I dont think it matters all that much but some seem to think 10 pounds makes a big dif, so thought I'd make the correction anyway.
First post I was addressing a general POV on why size makes a difference in competitive contact sports, and that it is not wise to dismiss it as a factor. I don't beleive (without looking) that I referenced Smith at all.

Not that it matters because your mind is made up that it makes absolutely no difference (illogical IMO but whatever), but even though Smith is listed by some @175, it's not uncommon to fudge such things, and there's plenty of speculation he's closer to 165.

I guess I'll just stop responding to your posts. You seem to be taking things out of the context in which they were intended, then try to force an issue that really doesn't exist. I don't usually mind our disagreements, because they are rational, and they get me to look at things from a different perspective.

Not in this case......

Have a great night brother.
 
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