Vision- Inate or Taught?

[enigmatics]

thank you

Thank you what? If he'd stop dancing in the backfield he wouldn't be having that problem.

 

[enigmatics]

First of all, Steve Nash and Magic Johnson are very good at what they do (or did). Nobody is saying that all professional players are completely equal. I said that all professional running backs have some measure of talent, though clearly some are better than others.

An interesting parallel to this argument would be to compare Magic Johnson or Steve Nash to guys like Larry Bird or David Robinson. All are great players, but they have very different talents. Larry Bird was great because he played to his talents, not to what somebody else thought his talents should be. He was an outside shooter - one of the best ever - though he could do just about everything.

The answer to this question is both. Vision, again, is something you define as basically being completely intangible. I'll consider it as basically raw talent, God-given gifts, or whatever. The NFL, as far as I know, doesn't have any Rudy-like players. Every running back has some measure of natural talent. However, every player gets better at what they do with experience. Confidence grows, they get better at pattern recognition, and they work better with their teammates.

I said before Ronnie Brown and Cadillac Williams are two different types of runners. Comparing two different runners on two different teams with two different offensive lines (VERY different) and two different offensive strategies is damn near impossible. If you look at their stats when they played on the same team - all things equal - their numbers are almost identical, with Brown's being a little bit better. Brown is capable of blocking and being a receiver.

If you ask me, put Brown on Tampa and he has similar (but probably less) yardage. Put Williams here, and he's got a lot less yards than Brown. There's no way he's mowing down Champ Bailey, or dragging John Abraham AND Jonathan Vilma.

No offense, but "If you ask me" is not by any means a debate clincher. It's a personal opinion, one which you're entitle to but that's about it. If you ask me :D I completely disagree with your assessment.

Secondly, why would I compare Larry Bird and David Robinson to Steve Nash and Magic? They played entirely different positions. I spoke of how those two see the court as point guards in relation to how Ronnie and Caddy see the field as RB's .......

 

[AZfinfan]

vision can't be taught, your right. But it will improve after seeing something time and time again. Ronnie doesn't have bad vision, he is inexperienced. Yes Caddy has better vision but give Ronnie a little more time and he will hit the holes harder without hesitation and will inturn become more productive. As a running back you have to see things over and over again then they become instictive. Look at the rookie seasons off nearly all the NFL's great runningbacks few put up pro bowl performances.

 

[FinsNCanes]

Ronnie's vision is fine. He's obviously dancing to much in the backfield and second guessing. I think he's trying to be TOO patient with the blocks and I honestly don't know how their line was at Auburn but I think he needs to get over doing that because obviously our line isn't the greatest. You can do that in college, not the NFL..and he'll soon realize that.

 

[HybridPHIN 23]

The biggest problem for Brown is the fact that the game needs to slow down for him.

Some people can adjust to the speed of the game faster than others. If you look at the top 6 runningback performances in their first two games, you will see that the list is not impressive at the least. Which goes to show that even the best of all time struggle to pick up the speed of the game.

EXACTLY
Vision CAN"T be taught... Ronnie already has above average vision, just not like Caddy. It's all about adjusting to the speed of the game. It takes me a little longer to pick some things up, but hell i can still dominate!! :evil:

 

[phinphan11]

EXACTLY
Vision CAN"T be taught... Ronnie already has above average vision, just not like Caddy. It's all about adjusting to the speed of the game. It takes me a little longer to pick some things up, but hell i can still dominate!! :evil:

Maybe he needs to slow down instead ... he's really fast running into a brick wall (our o-line). Vision could very well mean patience in waiting for the hole to develop.. if it ever does.

 

[BigDogsHunt]

I have read thru these posts and I am wondering something.

In football lingo "vision" isn’t defined as the ability to see clearly, its not eyesight related. As some posters have implied it’s not a question of improvement via glasses or contacts, correct?

Rather it’s a "feeling" a "sense" to allow almost subconscious muscle movements to put your body into a successful position to exploit the opponent.

A QB feels the pressure without having to see it! Its the "vision" to know where receivers are supposed to be and putting the ball there before they even make their final break in many cases. Its a few baby steps left, right, back or forward in the pocket to by a split second of extra time, or a duck move while his back is to the on rushing defensive player at the last moment to avoid the sack and release the ball. Marino was gifted at this even without great speed, but incredible quick feet and a hair-trigger release.

From a RB perspective "vision" is the ability to not necessarily see the field thats infront of you, but rather to "sense" where players are and thereby where "holes" exist. A cutback move is a clear example of this type of vision, sensing the hole without having to turn the head and see it with the eyes.

So sometimes its not a question of seeing holes in the D-Line that a truck could drive through, but rather finding gaps in space that his body can position itself into to make a positive gain where one wouldn’t normally have seen one.

Also and perhaps even more importantly, I think it’s the special ability to avoid a big hit by shifting ones body to take glancing blow vs. a direct hit. I think the three best I have ever seen do this were Walter Payton, Marshall Faulk, and Barry Sanders. They sensed the hit and seemed to shift at the last minute to take a glancing blow most of the time. Payton would on many occasion deliever a harder blow to the on coming tackler than vice versa.

I haven’t witnessed Ronnie's "inability" to do either of these. As a matter of fact, in the small sample we are dealing with when it comes to NFL speeds, he has found holes that didn’t otherwise exist (9 yarder vs. Jets) and he does avoid the big hit and takes glancing blows and from some college clips clearly can deliver a blow to finish the run.

Now can that type of "vision" be taught?

I would say, Yes, I think repetition teaches a talented athlete, a RB in particular, how to create space, make a hole, and when a hole that even a truck could drive through appears...to explode thru it and finish the run by avoiding punishment or dishing it out himself.

Now to be fair, Miami's OLine hasn’t created the latter, but hopefully soon. Certainly it’s possible.

Some Visual Scientists in the field have created machines to measure and improve athlete’s hand-eye coordination, thereby increase this type of vision. Athletes in all sports use and improve with these machines. I don’t know if you could extrapolate that to show "learned" vision in a Football sense, but maybe someone could.

Lastly, defining it as either innate or taught....i would add also learned.

Most humans learn even inate skills and pain. They learn how to maximize them. We may inately know how to breath and blink, but we learn there is a reason for this that is by design beneficial...we can learn to improve it and maximize it. The difference may be that we cant unlearn it, cant stop what is inate. We learn about pain and pain avoidence and or tolerance toward higher levels of tolerance. So even inate traits can be improved with knowledge.

So I think therefore a Football player can learn or be taught through past failures or successes the "vision" the "feel" the "sense" to create space to avoid the hit.

my 2 cents -