Want to keep Grant now. | Page 8 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Want to keep Grant now.

Dan13Forever

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An extra 4 yards... 29 times over 16 games...

Not very significant.
People are still thinking in 70s. It was run heavy offense. With the league props up passing game and high scoring, field position of cause still important, however its not like 70s.
 

Mach2

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People are still thinking in 70s. It was run heavy offense. With the league props up passing game and high scoring, field position of cause still important, however its not like 70s.
IDK if it's "70s" thinking, or just an outdated philosophy in general.

Many teams were still playing that game right up to the turn of the century.

I believe field position is still an important aspect, particularly if you are a conservative coach with a strong defense.

Having said that, the days of ball control through the "3 yds in a cloud of dust" are over.

More to the point, I would rather have an excellent punter, and average returner, than vice versa.

You can spin it any way you want, but 12 yds/gm difference on 4 punt returns is not a significant difference in field position.

Also, saying the returner alone is responsible for those yards, is completely dismissing the other ST players, and coach.
 

Feverdream

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People are still thinking in 70s. It was run heavy offense. With the league props up passing game and high scoring, field position of cause still important, however its not like 70s.
My biggest beef with the field position argument (and you saw this with the way he phrased his question) is that these guys assume that if we don't have Grant, we somehow don't have anyone else on the team who might also give us a bit more field position. As I KEEP POINTING OUT, Grant's EXTRA field position over a jag works out to 4-10 yards per game... and that just isn't very much in the totality of a football game.

They rant, "but Grant went to the Pro Bowl", as if somehow this equates to Mahomes going to the Pro Bowl. Other than long-snapper or kickoff return man, there isn't a less important position on the field.
 
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Dan13Forever

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IDK if it's "70s" thinking, or just an outdated philosophy in general.

Many teams were still playing that game right up to the turn of the century.

I believe field position is still an important aspect, particularly if you are a conservative coach with a strong defense.

Having said that, the days of ball control through the "3 yds in a cloud of dust" are over.

More to the point, I would rather have an excellent punter, and average returner, than vice versa.

You can spin it any way you want, but 12 yds/gm difference on 4 punt returns is not a significant difference in field position.

Also, saying the returner alone is responsible for those yards, is completely dismissing the other ST players, and coach.
You last sentence is right on.
 

royalshank

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An extra 4 yards... 29 times over 16 games...

Not very significant.
IDK know about that. That’s 29 drives you start 11.4 yards closer to the other teams EZ and 4.5 yards better than what a JAG would give you. Net punting average - which is the most important measure for a punter - going against Grant is terrible and that means Grant is not allowing other teams to tilt the field w punts. I think this is a more important statistic than you - I mean, we can agree to disagree. We don’t see eye to eye on Grant - I get that. And there’s nothing wrong w that either. I value ST return men who can score perhaps a bit more than the average fan as I recall the 20+ years of frustration where we didn’t return a KO for a TD. The scores, the long returns, doing it on both punt and KO + the occasional nice play in offense in space = I like Grant and think he warrants a roster spot. I get why fans are divided on him. I just happen to be in the pro Jakeem camp as the game has changed so much such that you need guys who can score from anywhere on the field and he can. If he’s cut, I’m not going to make a federal case of it either but I do hope he sticks. Go fins!
 

utahphinsfan

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My biggest beef with the field position argument (and you saw this with the way he phrased his question) is that these guys assume that if we don't have Grant, we somehow don't have anyone else on the team who might also give us a bit more field position. As I KEEP POINTING OUT, Grant's EXTRA field position over a jag works out to 4-10 yards per game... and that just isn't very much in the totality of a football game.

They rant, "but Grant went to the Pro Bowl", as if somehow this equates to Mahomes going to the Pro Bowl. Other than long-snapper or kickoff return man, there isn't a less important position on the field.

Disagree. LS is the fulcrum on which ST (1/3 of the game) turns.

LS is still around and not going the way of the dodo like FB
 

GhostArmOfMarino

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You can't just compare averages and say he's giving you 4 yards or 12 yards extra a game.

Having a returner who can go the distance creates pressure on a Punter which can result in blocks, shorter kicks with more air time, punts out of bounds, so on.

Its not as simple as people make it out to be. I'm not saying we should or shouldn't keep him, im just seeing a lot of people with no understanding of how ST works.
 

royalshank

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You can't just compare averages and say he's giving you 4 yards or 12 yards extra a game.

Having a returner who can go the distance creates pressure on a Punter which can result in blocks, shorter kicks with more air time, punts out of bounds, so on.

Its not as simple as people make it out to be. I'm not saying we should or shouldn't keep him, im just seeing a lot of people with no understanding of how ST works.
Very good points. Punters try to angle the ball away from dangerous returners, or try to hurry etc and make mistakes. We’ve blocked some punts in recent years including a big one last year. When your returner is slow (for a return man) and uninteresting, fewer exciting things seem to happen on ST in your favor.
 

Mach2

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And all this time I thought that the FB was making a comeback - LOL
The role never really left. It just moved to the TE area of the field.

It was a completely natural progression, given the proliferation of WC principles into most offensive systems.

The only advantage in that role coming from the backfield was negated and it's now more efficient to have a move TE with a similar skillset to the "archaic" FB position.
 

GhostArmOfMarino

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The role never really left. It just moved to the TE area of the field.

It was a completely natural progression, given the proliferation of WC principles into most offensive systems.

The only advantage in that role coming from the backfield was negated and it's now more efficient to have a move TE with a similar skillset to the "archaic" FB position.

I disagree with this for the simple fact that 99% of old school FB could absolutely NOT play the TE position.

The TE position has evolved to encompass the remaining FB responsibilities that still matter, but you cant just say the role is the same. Its really an entirely different skill set that most FB couldn't do.

Its basically an entirely new position, not just an evolution of one.
 

Mach2

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I disagree with this for the simple fact that 99% of old school FB could absolutely NOT play the TE position.

The TE position has evolved to encompass the remaining FB responsibilities that still matter, but you cant just say the role is the same. Its really an entirely different skill set that most FB couldn't do.

Its basically an entirely new position, not just an evolution of one.
Of course the overall required skillset has changed. That's what "evolved" means. One trait that is no longer required is replaced by one more benificial to an entitie's new environment.

When I allude to "role", it is in the context of scheme and design, not player skill specific.

I think we basically agree, other than semantics.
 

KTOWNFINFAN

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Miami’s is 3-2 when Grant scores a ST TD.
what is our record when he fumbles a punt or kick off ?? I would imagine he fumbles more than he scores, he scares me every time he is back there. I would rather have someone who catches 99% than someone who returns 1 or 2 for a score in a season, but fumbles one in 10. You have to include his entire skillset, both the good AND the bad.
 

NY8123

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People are still thinking in 70s. It was run heavy offense. With the league props up passing game and high scoring, field position of cause still important, however its not like 70s.

IDK if it's "70s" thinking, or just an outdated philosophy in general.

Many teams were still playing that game right up to the turn of the century.

I believe field position is still an important aspect, particularly if you are a conservative coach with a strong defense.

Having said that, the days of ball control through the "3 yds in a cloud of dust" are over.

More to the point, I would rather have an excellent punter, and average returner, than vice versa.

You can spin it any way you want, but 12 yds/gm difference on 4 punt returns is not a significant difference in field position.

Also, saying the returner alone is responsible for those yards, is completely dismissing the other ST players, and coach.
It's not outdated thinking but with today's "throw it up on 3rd and long and hope for the flag", field position isn't what it used to be, that much is certain.
 

1972forever

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He's an all pro return specialist...He's absolutely worth 2-3 million.
His cap hit is $4.6 million. He has NEVER been an all pro returner and he is a below average WR. The Dolphins can save $3 against the cap by cutting him. They should see if they can trade him for a 7th round pick but if they can’t, I just don’t see him making the final 53 next season.
 
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