Was Gary Stevens considered a good OC?

[dlockz]

Yes, Marino being Plan A, B, and C doesn’t mean that literally they never tried anything else. It means that nothing else worked when they tried it and so Marino had to win games or the defense and (lack of) running game would lose them.

The talent on the Dolphins between 1986-1988 absolutely fell to pieces. And the rebuild beginning in 1989 was a good step, but it wasn’t successful enough. The defense got better, but it wasn’t elite or dominant; on its best day it was pretty good. And the running game was never solved under Shula post-1985, ever (arguably it wasn’t solved until 2002 and trading multiple first rounders for Ricky Williams). The Dolphins teams post-1985 and through 1999 were only going to go as far as Marino carried them— period.

It was sad looking at numbers, we have not had a top 10 offense since 1995 and only one offense that scored in top 8 since that time. Not sure any nfl can touch that streak

 

[H.P. Lovedrafts]

Gary Stevens' resume was padded significantly by having Dan at QB, similar to how Adam Gase's was padded by having Peyton Manning in Denver. Blaming his players and basically calling them "chickenshit" instead of taking responsibility for his predictable and unimaginative play calling was a douchebag move. Kippy Brown was able to get a much better performance out of the offense in 1998 with basically the same offensive roster, and Brown isn't considered an offensive genius.

 

[dlockz]

Gary Stevens' resume was padded significantly by having Dan at QB, similar to how Adam Gase's was padded by having Peyton Manning in Denver. Blaming his players and basically calling them "chickenshit" instead of taking responsibility for his predictable and unimaginative play calling was a douchebag move. Kippy Brown was able to get a much better performance out of the offense in 1998 with basically the same offensive roster, and Brown isn't considered an offensive genius.

By what metric was a much better performance ut of the offense then 1997. The 97 team scored more points, had more yards, had more first downs.

They did have 200 more yards rushing by 200 less yards. 42 less first downs 400 more passing yards 18 more points scored

13th ranked in scoring and 11th ranked in yardage vs Kipp 16 and 16. defense was the big difference in 98.

 

[H.P. Lovedrafts]

By what metric was a much better performance ut of the offense then 1997. The 97 team scored more points, had more yards, had more first downs.

They did have 200 more yards rushing by 200 less yards. 42 less first downs 400 more passing yards 18 more points scored

13th ranked in scoring and 11th ranked in yardage vs Kipp 16 and 16. defense was the big difference in 98.

The improvement in offense from 1997 to 1998 wouldn't look absolutely remarkable if you were looking just at statistics, although Dan Marino did throw for more TDs in 1998, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar ran for more yards. The biggest critique of Gary Stevens' offense in 1997 was it was ridiculously simple to figure out, yet it was very complicated for new and young players to learn...a recipe for disaster. In a week 17 showdown with the Patriots (at home with the division title on the line), the Patriots figured out most of Miami's audibles and won. The next week, the Patriots hosted Miami in a Wild Card game, and since they knew most of Miami's plays and audibles (especially the audible "46"), they made the afternoon hellish for Dan and the offense. It had become evident earlier in the season (after an audible lead to a pick-6 vs. Detroit) that defenses had figured out Miami's offense. After this, Coach Johnson had instructed Gary Stevens to change the audible terminology, but what Stevens came up with caused more confusion for the offense than it did for opposing defenses.

 

[Dolphins3]

Funny, but I keep reading the ‘plan a, b, c’ thing lately. It’s not true.

I’ve been re-watching a ton of games from that era, specifically 84-87, and they ran the ball a lot more than you’re led to believe. I should say ‘tried to run the ball’ because it wasn’t typically very successful.

That‘s precisely why they started slinging it more and more as years dragged on. Because when they tried to run, they consistently found themselves in 2nd and 3rd and long situations.

Those teams just couldn’t run the ball well. At all. They churned through RB’s left and right. Problem was they just didn’t have run blocking maulers. Not until Jimmy Johnson started trying to change that and even then they were never dominant in that aspect of the game until the Wannstedt era with Ricky Williams in 2002.

I've also been watching old games recently. The team did have a commitment to the running game. They just didn't have the horses to have an effective running game. They tried with Sammie Smith and Mark Higgs to really establish the run. in the early 90's.

Off the top of my head, I have a list of guys who, a one time or another, were featured ball carriers when Marino was in Miami (I will leave out fullbacks such as Byars and Tony Paige because they almost never ran the ball). David Overstreet, Tony Nathan , Woody Bennett, Anda Franklin, Pete Johnson (primarily short yardage), Lorenzo Hampton, Troy Stradford, Sammie Smith, Mark Higgs, Bobby Humphrey (didn't get used much), Terry Kirby, Bernie Parmalee, Irving Spikes, Karim Abdul-Jabbar, Lawrence Phillips, John Avery, Cecil Collins, and James Johnson. Not exactly a list of franchise guys (and I may have left out a few). I still think the lack of a great defense hurt more than the puny running game. The combination of the two was a death knell for long playoff runs.

 

[Etuoo33]

IMO the answer lies in he post Phins career...

 

[tcdrover]

What I always found funny was that Gary worked for Jimmy for 5 years when they were together on staff with the Hurricanes - Gary was Jimmy's OC when they won the national title in '87. Then Jimmy canned him for Kippy Brown after 2 years together with the Dolphins.

Jimmy believed Pete Carroll and the Patriots had figured out Marino and Gary's audibles after he threw two pick 6's to Jimmy Hitch**** and Larry Whigham in Foxboro during the Wild Card game. Miami only scored 3 points that day and lost because of those interceptions - on a day Trace Armstrong, Jason Taylor, Zach Thomas, Terrell Buckley and Sam Madison held Bledsoe to under 150 yards passing and the Patriots running game in check to barely 100 yards as a team.

It was the last straw for Jimmy as far as Gary was concerned. All Kippy did was come in and simplify the offense in an attempt to neuter Marino and put the onus on running backs like J.J. Johnson instead of allowing Marino to audible.

Well, I think it was Bruschi I could be wrong on the player, but they said they had Marino's audibles figured out.

There are interviews with this out, it is old news at this point.

JJ should have traded Marino right away, back when he was worth something.

Keeping Marino prevented him from actually building a NEW team.

 

[The Bopkin]

What I always found funny was that Gary worked for Jimmy for 5 years when they were together on staff with the Hurricanes - Gary was Jimmy's OC when they won the national title in '87. Then Jimmy canned him for Kippy Brown after 2 years together with the Dolphins.

Jimmy believed Pete Carroll and the Patriots had figured out Marino and Gary's audibles after he threw two pick 6's to Jimmy Hitch**** and Larry Whigham in Foxboro during the Wild Card game. Miami only scored 3 points that day and lost because of those interceptions - on a day Trace Armstrong, Jason Taylor, Zach Thomas, Terrell Buckley and Sam Madison held Bledsoe to under 150 yards passing and the Patriots running game in check to barely 100 yards as a team.

It was the last straw for Jimmy as far as Gary was concerned. All Kippy did was come in and simplify the offense in an attempt to neuter Marino and put the onus on running backs like J.J. Johnson instead of allowing Marino to audible.

This is a spot on account. The only thing I would add is that I remember for JJ, having to fire Stevens really hurt him and it tortured him all off-season.

 

[The Bopkin]

I've also been watching old games recently. The team did have a commitment to the running game. They just didn't have the horses to have an effective running game. They tried with Sammie Smith and Mark Higgs to really establish the run. in the early 90's.

Off the top of my head, I have a list of guys who, a one time or another, were featured ball carriers when Marino was in Miami (I will leave out fullbacks such as Byars and Tony Paige because they almost never ran the ball). David Overstreet, Tony Nathan , Woody Bennett, Anda Franklin, Pete Johnson (primarily short yardage), Lorenzo Hampton, Troy Stradford, Sammie Smith, Mark Higgs, Bobby Humphrey (didn't get used much), Terry Kirby, Bernie Parmalee, Irving Spikes, Karim Abdul-Jabbar, Lawrence Phillips, John Avery, Cecil Collins, and James Johnson. Not exactly a list of franchise guys (and I may have left out a few). I still think the lack of a great defense hurt more than the puny running game. The combination of the two was a death knell for long playoff runs.

Yesterday I watched Week 3 of 1985, vs Chiefs, and the announcer said that the o-line claimed they wanted to run the ball more, and they thought they were good run blockers, but that they(oline) claimed they(the offense) rarely practiced running the ball in practice. 90% pass practice.

 

[NY8123]

What I always found funny was that Gary worked for Jimmy for 5 years when they were together on staff with the Hurricanes - Gary was Jimmy's OC when they won the national title in '87. Then Jimmy canned him for Kippy Brown after 2 years together with the Dolphins.

Jimmy believed Pete Carroll and the Patriots had figured out Marino and Gary's audibles after he threw two pick 6's to Jimmy Hitch**** and Larry Whigham in Foxboro during the Wild Card game. Miami only scored 3 points that day and lost because of those interceptions - on a day Trace Armstrong, Jason Taylor, Zach Thomas, Terrell Buckley and Sam Madison held Bledsoe to under 150 yards passing and the Patriots running game in check to barely 100 yards as a team.

It was the last straw for Jimmy as far as Gary was concerned. All Kippy did was come in and simplify the offense in an attempt to neuter Marino and put the onus on running backs like J.J. Johnson instead of allowing Marino to audible.

This.

 

[Dolphins3]

Well, I think it was Bruschi I could be wrong on the player, but they said they had Marino's audibles figured out.

There are interviews with this out, it is old news at this point.

JJ should have traded Marino right away, back when he was worth something.

Keeping Marino prevented him from actually building a NEW team.

Dan le Batard referenced this in the Dan Marino Sportscentury episode. I think Jimmy wanted to trade Marino (if he had, he would have been the most hated man in South Florida). Le Batard's comment was something along the lines of "Jimmy was used to treating players with heartless precision. Nobody treats marino that way. Not in this town, not ever." I don't recall the exact quote but that was pretty close. He then said "For the first time in his career, Jimmy had a player whose aura was bigger than his own."

 

[Finsfan1984]

I remember the audible situation, and it was always strange to me as to why they just didn’t change their system. Seems like a fairly simple change, just requires a little time. But it’s not like changing a complete offensive system.
Regardless of all this, GS was not the problem, the lack of overall talent always was the problem. Miami always had just enough talent to take them to the edge, but not enough to go beyond. It wouldn’t have mattered who we had as OC.

 

[Finsfan1984]

Dan le Batard referenced this in the Dan Marino Sportscentury episode. I think Jimmy wanted to trade Marino (if he had, he would have been the most hated man in South Florida). Le Batard's comment was something along the lines of "Jimmy was used to treating players with heartless precision. Nobody treats marino that way. Not in this town, not ever." I don't recall the exact quote but that was pretty close. He then said "For the first time in his career, Jimmy had a player whose aura was bigger than his own."

That’s pretty much the exact quote as I remember it too, and IMO entirely accurate of the situation at the time.

 

[tcdrover]

Dan le Batard referenced this in the Dan Marino Sportscentury episode. I think Jimmy wanted to trade Marino (if he had, he would have been the most hated man in South Florida). Le Batard's comment was something along the lines of "Jimmy was used to treating players with heartless precision. Nobody treats marino that way. Not in this town, not ever." I don't recall the exact quote but that was pretty close. He then said "For the first time in his career, Jimmy had a player whose aura was bigger than his own."

You know how the saying goes...

Hindsight is 20/20.

Danny MIGHT have a ring today if he was traded to the Steelers....

AND JJ might ALSO have some more rings if he built a run first team with a strong defense like he....

REALLY WANTED TO

 

[royalshank]

Mixed feelings about Stevens. He had Marino in his prime so anyone would look competent. As others pointed out - we tried to run more than you think. We just weren’t good at it. The backs weren’t great and even our best o linemen in Webb and Simms weren’t very good run blockers. Now had we found a great back who knows, it may have looked different. By the time JJ came to the team, Stevens may have passed his sell by date. Kippy Brown was way worse though.