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Watching Josh Allen and Mahomes

H.P. Lovedrafts

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We finally get rid of Brady in the division and now we have Allen to deal with for the next 15 years.

I thought about the same thing the other night. Buffalo was a joke for decades since Jim Kelly retired. The division was there for the taking with Brady moving on and we **** the bed.
 

GhostArmOfMarino

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Guy is a Monster, but I'm wondering if the Bills aren't perfect for him. They rotate their D line heavily. Flores doesn't do that as much. He'd be more exposed on the Dolphins for 'bad' plays. However, I'm violating my own rule that good players don't magically suck because they'd have to play for the Dolphins.

Anyways, some strange stats in this game. Allen only had 15 completions, but 315 yards. That's a 21 yards per pass average. Allen and Mahomes were both the rushing leaders for their teams. KC ran 77 plays! Bill ran 54.

To be fair you didn't say he would suck playing for us, you said he wouldn't fit our defense as well.
 

GhostArmOfMarino

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For people that still think rebuilding takes more than 1 or 2 off-seasons. Look what McDermott and Beane did since they got to Buffalo.

In 2017 they made the playoffs but must of realized their team had a low ceiling and tore it down. They got their QB and took their lumps with a 6-10 season. They've linearly progressed (playoffs, AFC Championship) since then and now look like the best team in the AFC.

To me there is no set amount of time, it really depends where you are starting from.

Some teams have legitimate talent but need a few pieces and good coach. Those teams tend to turn around fast.

When you tear the entire roster apart in my opinion 3 years is the minimum to start seeing the real results.
 

KingHydra

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We love Groot. He is playing so well. But lets not drag Phillips because of what Rousseau is doing, totally different situation was drafted as a DE to play what he is used to playing DE/DT. Phillips is a hand in the dirt DE drafted to be a standup LBer. I remember this going on with Shaq Lawson too, and it killed his growth he couldn't make the transition. Once he was put back into a hand in the dirt DE with McD, he performed.

I have been encouraged with what I have seen from Phillips lately, and you guys should too, he looks like he is still learning by alot, but is starting to play faster and getting more involved. I still think he will be a good one, just has to learn the position. If they would just put him at DE and let him do what he knows there would be more impact sooner. But that is not the path MIA laid out for him.
We should go to 4-3 and put Phillips at DE where he will shine. But, nope. Gotta do all the weird, silly, clever crap with personnel in the wrong spots to pretend we are The Patriots. With a young inexperienced team you need to get back to basics and stop trying to reinvent the wheel.
 

Rick Cartman

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To me there is no set amount of time, it really depends where you are starting from.

Some teams have legitimate talent but need a few pieces and good coach. Those teams tend to turn around fast.

When you tear the entire roster apart in my opinion 3 years is the minimum to start seeing the real results.

The Bills overhauled their roster in 2 off-seasons. Giving too much time in the era of free agency is setting up to fail.
Free agency, when utilized properly, was designed to help teams turn it around quickly. I don't think anyone can objectively say the dolphins have done well with their FA signings.
Additionally, players are entering college football and the NFL ready to play almost immediately, the days of letting picks (especially first and second day picks) marinate are mostly in the past.

Someone like Grier, who appears to operate in a fashion not to lose instead of playing to win, i'm sure loved the opportunity to do a rebuild because it meant he would not face any type of job stability issues for a few seasons. The season is pending, but he has completely duffed it by the looks of it.
 

BillsFanInPeace

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We should go to 4-3 and put Phillips at DE where he will shine. But, nope. Gotta do all the weird, silly, clever crap with personnel in the wrong spots to pretend we are The Patriots. With a young inexperienced team you need to get back to basics and stop trying to reinvent the wheel.
I think he can make the transition he is alot more athletic than others that have tried and failed. But I agree with you his first year he should have just been put at DE let him do what he does, build confidence and learn the game. With the goal laid out for him in 2022 from Flores to be you are going to be a standup LBer. He then would have all offseason instead of a compressed one to get ready for it. Compressed one is because he didnt start learning the position until after drafted. So essentially he has a Summer to learn a position that in this defense looks like there is alot of responsibility on him. I hate coaches who draft this high end talent then in their first year puts a ton on them. These kids heads are swimming, let them get their feet under them first.

Not only are their heads swimming on the field but off field as well, going from a college kid to a millionaire overnight is a HUGE lifestyle change too and they are not only dealing with that, but then trying to learn a game at a totally different speed and competition level. Too often do I think teams forget about the Lifestyle impacts being drafted has and how that will weigh on a rookie for 6-8 months getting all that in place as well.
 

dolphan

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The Bills overhauled their roster in 2 off-seasons. Giving too much time in the era of free agency is setting up to fail.
Free agency, when utilized properly, was designed to help teams turn it around quickly. I don't think anyone can objectively say the dolphins have done well with their FA signings.
Additionally, players are entering college football and the NFL ready to play almost immediately, the days of letting picks (especially first and second day picks) marinate are mostly in the past.

Someone like Grier, who appears to operate in a fashion not to lose instead of playing to win, i'm sure loved the opportunity to do a rebuild because it meant he would not face any type of job stability issues for a few seasons. The season is pending, but he has completely duffed it by the looks of it.

They hit on a lot of draft picks quickly. That's the key.

They got there in 2017. The next 2 drafts produced

Tre White
Dion Dawkins
Matt Milano
Josh Allen
Tremaine Edmunds
Taron Johnson

All but Edmunds have already been extended and they picked up his 5th year option for next season.

When you can get a franchise CB, QB, LT and 2 stud LBs and a good nickel in your first 14 months on the job...you're going to turn it around in a hurry

They made some smart signings in Hyde and Poyer...and a big trade for Diggs...but look at that list from the first 2 drafts. They hit some grand slams
 

DOLFAN_51

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See what it’s like to have a QB that can keep a play alive by being mobile. Trade the next two first rounders and tua for deshaun and hope his legal problems without.

He’s the most sacked QB in the NFL. Quick reads and quick release equal more success than running. I’m not a believer in Watson equals winning record. Never mind the playoffs. And if we made it to the playoffs with him I don’t see him winning playoff games against top defenses. So no thank you. He’s not Mahomes. Not even close. Not even a little bit.
 

GhostArmOfMarino

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The Bills overhauled their roster in 2 off-seasons. Giving too much time in the era of free agency is setting up to fail.
Free agency, when utilized properly, was designed to help teams turn it around quickly. I don't think anyone can objectively say the dolphins have done well with their FA signings.
Additionally, players are entering college football and the NFL ready to play almost immediately, the days of letting picks (especially first and second day picks) marinate are mostly in the past.

Someone like Grier, who appears to operate in a fashion not to lose instead of playing to win, i'm sure loved the opportunity to do a rebuild because it meant he would not face any type of job stability issues for a few seasons. The season is pending, but he has completely duffed it by the looks of it.

The reason I say real results start year three is that if you're truly tearing it all down you're most likely phasing out those guys from years 1 and 2, so whatever lack of success or success you have isn't stable because the same players aren't coming back in years 1 and 2.

Year 3 you should definitely be able to tell what direction the arrow is headed.
 

dolphan

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And Allen and Mahommes aren’t outliers?

Why are you wasting the threads time?

Allen is a different kind of outlier in that he was bad and improved everything people thought couldn’t be improved to become a star against all odds. What he had that Tua doesn’t is some elite qualities. There was always the potential he could be great if he hit some ceilings…but it was super improbable that he could.

And make no mistake…Allen was BAD as a rookie. But he had a couple of games where you’d walk out blown away by him and think…man if he could put it together he’d be incredible. The Minnesota game where they were giant underdogs and he hurdled the guy…and the game against us where he won his first of many offensive player of the week awards. Tua hasn’t been as bad as Allen was his rookie year. But he also hasn’t had the performance where I walk away thinking…man…this guy could be amazing.
 
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