What if Demaryius Thomas runs in the low/mid 4.40s

mandal24

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Would you take him in the 1st? Maybe trade back and grab him with a mid to late 1st round pick.. hes a beast but supposedly wont get much separation in the pro's.. He played in a heavy run attack though at GT so nobody really knows what hes about.. plus how can he be "so slow" according to scouts when he averaged the highest yards per catch (i believe)
 

FinsFanatic777

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I don't like it. If we're going to take WR it should (better be) Dez Bryant. I believe we should go defense in this draft (restock up the FS, LB, NT), but I guess it depends on who we get with that extra pick.
 

3rdandinches

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I don't like it. If we're going to take WR it should (better be) Dez Bryant. I believe we should go defense in this draft (restock up the FS, LB, NT), but I guess it depends on who we get with that extra pick.
Well then suppose Dez is long gone.

I would rather hope he's available in the second, he seems to be getting too much hype all of a sudden to be a 1st rounder. There's no extensive tape on him since their run oriented offense took over and the combine alone will be not enough to put him in the first unless it's real late.
 

Pachyderm_Wave

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Would you take him in the 1st? Maybe trade back and grab him with a mid to late 1st round pick.. hes a beast but supposedly wont get much separation in the pro's.. He played in a heavy run attack though at GT so nobody really knows what hes about.. plus how can he be "so slow" according to scouts when he averaged the highest yards per catch (i believe)

You can make statistics mean anything you want them to....in my opinion they have no place in talent evaluation.....too many variables..

If you've ever watched Georgia Tech....you know that on the very, very, very, rare instances that they throw the football, they're throwing it to Thomas..

Not only that...but when they throw it, they're going long with it....none of this dink and dunk stuff.....so naturally any pass that Bebe caught, he was guaranteed to be deep down the field anyway...matched up in single coverage with a smaller DB....

Although I have seen Thomas catch a screen pass....deliver a stiff arm to the DB...and take it the distance...

His routes consisted of screens, outs, or a flare/fly pattern...that's it...

No dig routes...no slants...no posts....nothing that required him getting seperation to get open...

I don't know who you're referring to that considers him "so slow", but I don't think there's anyway he cracks below the 4.5 mark in Indy....which isn't slow for a WR his size anyway....

The point is speed isn't what creates seperation anyway....doing the little things in your route running is what creates seperation...and having the ability to explode in and out of your cuts....GT's offense simply hasn't given him the opportunity to show whether or not he can do that consistently...
 

ckparrothead

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If he runs in the 4.4's he's a first rounder to me. There are negatives associated with his work in that offense for sure, but also big positives. For one thing due to the triple option, he's probably faced more tight man coverage, press coverage, than any receiver in the draft...and he gets open against it. I realize he hasn't run a variety of routes often, but that alone is worth its weight in gold for a college receiver.

He's the most physical receiver in the draft. He makes physical catches. He stiff-arms defenders and keeps them at bay.

My question really IS speed...because of so many instances where I've seen him get caught by guys that surely run no better than 4.6 in the 40. If he can't crack below the 4.6 range then he won't even be separating from linebackers in the NFL let alone safeties or corners.
 

Mr. Magoo

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My question really IS speed...because of so many instances where I've seen him get caught by guys that surely run no better than 4.6 in the 40. If he can't crack below the 4.6 range then he won't even be separating from linebackers in the NFL let alone safeties or corners.
Right. Running a 4.4 at the combine doesn't mean much when you get caught from behind by 4.6 guys in the game. Just ask Chris Henry (RB, not WR).
 

ckparrothead

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What it means is that I should pay more attention to that high YPC of his and start thinking about the fact that the offense he played in and the QB he played with were much more disadvantage than advantage.

This is where people don't understand the place of the 40 time and all that. They like to say the tape doesn't lie. The tape lies all the damn time, if you don't have perfect information. Perfect information means knowing the speeds and athletic abilities of everyone on the field so that you can get a more accurate gauge on certain guys. If you don't know whether a guy is a 4.6 or a 4.5 guy, how are you supposed to know whether a certain spacing means that a 4.4 guy should be in for a touchdown, excepting the theory that he times faster than he runs on a football field?

What a 4.4 would tell me about Demaryius Thomas is that a lot of guys could not have done better, if they'd played in that offense, faced that constant and tight man coverage with press at the line, and had a QB that had a knack for rarely getting the ball to the man in stride. What a 4.6 would tell me is that a lot of guys probably could have done better.
 

ckparrothead

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When you think about it, Demaryius Thomas is the perfect example of a guy where the 40 time means a ton. It means a ton because of the offense he played in. It's SUCH a question mark for everyone, and people rightfully have a tough time trying to get a beat on what the offense means to the catches you see on tape, his penchant for getting or not getting open, everything right down to getting caught from behind and how that might be a function of the spacing that stems from how defenses play him and what kinds of routes he runs, how the QB tends to get him the ball, etc.

Everywhere I hear the same thing about BeBe...so hard to get a grip on how to treat him because of that offense.

So what does the 40 time do? It gives you a hell of a lot better perspective on what that offense might have been doing FOR the guy, as well as how it might have been working AGAINST the guy.
 

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I think it helps him a lot...

Paul Johnson's offense puts SO MUCH stress on all 11 defenders every play....play, after play, after play....especially the corners...

You already know your priority is to stop the run....Dive, pitch, quarterback...in order of priority...

It's only natural for the perimeter guys to get caught looking in the backfield more often...

Even on all the bombs that Thomas catches....he's covered....he hasn't gotten any seperation...he can just simply use his size to out jump and outmuscle the smaller DB for the football...he understands how to use his size and shield the defender....sometimes it's even just a perfect throw from Nesbit..as hard as that is to believe...

However, sometimes he just looks faster than others....

On the screen pass that he took 60+ yards to the house against Georgia....he outran the angle that Rashad Jones had on him....I'm not sure what Jones will time....but either way it was the most impressive play from start to finish that I've seen Thomas make...he looked like he was shot out of a cannon after he stiff armed the CB to the ground at the LOS...

Other times he's getting outrun by Dwyer downfield...or almost out of gas by the time he reaches the endzone and he's been caught by guys that should be much slower than he is...and he has to use that stiff arm to get in....

I really couldn't care less what he times in the 40 yard dash personally....I want to see him get seperation on routes that I've never seen him run....I already know I can throw it up to him 50 yards downfield matched up in single coverage and know that he's going to come down with it more often than not....
 

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If he runs in the 4.whatever he's a top 25 pick. I read somewhere he hit 4.4 in his training for the combine. I always said he plays faster than his timed speed, and while the sophistication of his routes will be a mark against him that will be a side note. The system Bryant played in had limited routes as do most college systems, but if Thomas at 6'3", 229 lbs with his hands and blocking ability hit 4.something, he is a top 25 pick and the second WR off the board.

As mush as I like him unless Miami can improve ILB, OLB, WR and S in free agency I do not want them to draft a WR at #12. With that being said unless there is a player Miami loves at #12 I think they will do their darndest to trade back and acquire more picks. I think they would have a half dozen players on their board that they could probably get all of them somewhere between #12 and #22.
 

jim1

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When you think about it, Demaryius Thomas is the perfect example of a guy where the 40 time means a ton. It means a ton because of the offense he played in. It's SUCH a question mark for everyone, and people rightfully have a tough time trying to get a beat on what the offense means to the catches you see on tape, his penchant for getting or not getting open, everything right down to getting caught from behind and how that might be a function of the spacing that stems from how defenses play him and what kinds of routes he runs, how the QB tends to get him the ball, etc.

Everywhere I hear the same thing about BeBe...so hard to get a grip on how to treat him because of that offense.

So what does the 40 time do? It gives you a hell of a lot better perspective on what that offense might have been doing FOR the guy, as well as how it might have been working AGAINST the guy.
The 40 is necessary because it's an objective measurement- as you've said before you try (wisely) to measure relative speed via two known quatities, ie WR vs DB. That can help, but regardless, if a WR outruns a S in college who runs a 4.8, in terms of pro potential who really cares?

I like DT quite a bit, but what I don't see is suddenness and explosion, raw speed as well. If he even sniffs a 4.4 I'll be shocked. I'd expect a more Patrick Turner like 4.58. But it's not just that- Dez Bryant will run what, a 4.55? Even if he does, he has those two words that keep coming back- suddenness and explosion. And DT is a glider, and that's a problem for me.

The flip side is the Anquan Boldin comparison- big, physical dude who gets it done despite having pedestrian speed. But how often do those guys work out? Bottom line is that I like DT but I wouldn't touch him in the 1st rd and I think that our 2nd rounder is too high for him as well. Too much risk there. And the guy who will turn some heads imo in terms of a flashy 40 time will be Arrelious Benn.
 

hoops

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he can run in the 4.4's...i'm still not pegging him with a 1st round grade...i want to see separation like slimm...

in the 4.4's hmm i bump to 2nd round...in the low 4.6's i drop to 4th...

it sure looks like them dbs are in his hip pocket to me down the field...

b/t jim...ck said dez bryant is running 4.47's in precombine training...
 

jim1

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he can run in the 4.4's...i'm still not pegging him with a 1st round grade...i want to see separation like slimm...

in the 4.4's hmm i bump to 2nd round...in the low 4.6's i drop to 4th...

it sure looks like them dbs are in his hip pocket to me down the field...

b/t jim...ck said dez bryant is running 4.47's in precombine training...
The 4.47 makes more sense to me based upon what I've seen. This is the guy, not ILB Rolando McLain imo. I would package Ginn to Oakland to move up to #8 and get him. I just want to see the #1 WR problem solved, and then move on to fix the defense. In terms of size, aggressiveness, hands and good speed Bryant is the guy. It would just blow if he were taken #10 or #11, but that will probably happen.
 

hoops

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The 4.47 makes more sense to me based upon what I've seen. This is the guy, not ILB Rolando McLain imo. I would package Ginn to Oakland to move up to #8 and get him. I just want to see the #1 WR problem solved, and then move on to fix the defense. In terms of size, aggressiveness, hands and good speed Bryant is the guy. It would just blow if he were taken #10 or #11, but that will probably happen.
well you KNOW that i'm dez bryant all the way...:up:

i'd make that trade with oakland in a second to lock down dez...don't know if scrub ginn would be enough but i'd look into the cost...

everson griffen is a guy who floors me on tape the more i watch him...there's so much talent there...if we did stay put...he's just heading right up my board...every issue i see in his game is correctable to me and there aren't many...i think he'd start on the strongside from day 1...guys that size should not be able to move like that
 

ckparrothead

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See I just see a different game when it comes to BeBe. There are three possible reasons he has defenders in his hip pocket whenever he catches a ball. The first is Nesbitt gives a trademark underthrow (when you're not accurate, the underthrow is the best way to give your guy the potential to make the catch without botching it up). The second is the fear we all have which is lack of speed in Demaryius. The third is that DT constantly faces tight man coverage. That's NFL style coverage. You don't see that in college much, everyone plays off and the corners generally aren't that good at it. That's why you see guys have plenty of separation and spacing. If they all had to face tight man coverage then there'd be a shift in appreciation for what "open" is and is not, just like there is in the NFL. In reality, a simple play where Demaryius gets off Chris Chancellor's press, runs a vertical and creates a step and a half of separation so that Nesbitt can throw it high and inside and Bebe will easily catch it...that's a lot harder a route to get open that way than 90% of what you're seeing a lot of other college players do.

What I fear is that he wasn't getting open because of his lack of physical ability in the speed department. But if he's got a great 40 time then that fear is basically gone and I suddenly know why I'm seeing what I'm seeing, and I'd be as bullish on Thomas as just about any WR over the years.
 
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