What the knock on Herbert? | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

What the knock on Herbert?

Dolphinator530

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Was the QB1 going into last draft returned and has seemingly improved his accuracy and displayed the entire repertoire of throws which I believe were the biggest things against him last year. Good athlete at minimum pretty good pocket presence and he is being talked about in the teens and QB3.

FO last year was high on him no idea what this one thinks of him but has played well in big games, I hope they somehow make the playoff so he can be on display on the biggest stage.

Anyone with more knowledge than me wish to speak on this? I mean I favor sitting a guy with the tools and having him learn with the weapons he will have in practice and some game situations, so him learning behind Fitz while the roster continues to be built isnt the worst thing in the world IMO.
 
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Personally my knock on Justin Herbert is that he finds a wide array of ways to fail on any given play. And that's one of the reasons you see him get compared to Ryan Tannehill.

It can be ball placement. It can be missing a read. It can be late timing. It can be a straight up misfire. It can be failure to anticipate a blitz. It can be bad pressure sense. It can be bad instincts for how to move in order to escape pressure. It can be a fumble. It can be bad footwork leading to a batted pass. It can be bad situational awareness.

Imagine all these things on a big Wheel of Misfortune, and for a majority of his plays you're going to spin the wheel and it's going to land on something above. The play may very well succeed, despite the negative trait he showed. But he still showed it.

That's something that keeps happening with Josh Rosen, as well.

But I would love to hear Slimm's input on this because I know he's been liking what Herbert has been putting out lately. He and I disagree about the Washington game, but I agree that Herbert has been a rock star in the USC and Arizona games.
 
Personally my knock on Justin Herbert is that he finds a wide array of ways to fail on any given play. And that's one of the reasons you see him get compared to Ryan Tannehill.

It can be ball placement. It can be missing a read. It can be late timing. It can be a straight up misfire. It can be failure to anticipate a blitz. It can be bad pressure sense. It can be bad instincts for how to move in order to escape pressure. It can be a fumble. It can be bad footwork leading to a batted pass. It can be bad situational awareness.

Imagine all these things on a big Wheel of Misfortune, and for a majority of his plays you're going to spin the wheel and it's going to land on something above. The play may very well succeed, despite the negative trait he showed. But he still showed it.

That's something that keeps happening with Josh Rosen, as well.

But I would love to hear Slimm's input on this because I know he's been liking what Herbert has been putting out lately. He and I disagree about the Washington game, but I agree that Herbert has been a rock star in the USC and Arizona games.


So what are the limitations you see with guys like Fromm, Eason and Love since with Herbert they are the 2nd/3rd tier of the class at least from an initial scouting analysis.

Full disclosure I am a huge Fromm guy, I think his pre-snap and mental game is huge. I think he has intangibles and his arm is underrated. And while he does have some odd footwork i think you can fix that.

He has been better with upper class-men at receiver and has struggled some this year, but he has a first year Offensive Coordinator and feel like he is handcuffed some in general because of UGA's style of play. I think he makes NFL throws with regularity especially with the back shoulder/fades and comebacks he seems to excel at. But he does have limitations and is he worth a top 5 or so pick? I mean if the FO feel as if any of them are THE GUY then absolutely they should use a top 5 pick on them.

Eason having played at UGA for a year seems to be slow on his reads and miss guys as he goes through progressions, havent seen him much at Washington though he does have the arm and ability to make all the throws. Mentally i think he is lacking and was the one of the big reasons UGA used Fromm over him.

I know NOTHING about Love so I will not speak on him.
 
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I moved Herbert to my #1 for Miami about a year ago. He is still at #1 for Miami with Fromm a very close second.
 
I think you've got a nice read on Jake Fromm, which shouldn't surprise me as you've got so much exposure to him. I've been watching him pretty closely myself since that fantastic freshman campaign of his.

I think he's a classic boom or bust prospect. Most quarterbacks are. They either succeed spectacularly or fail spectacularly.

The bull case for him is on stuff that's not easy to see. You have to have a lot of exposure to him, or to be a coach, to see it. Those of us who aren't coaches, the uninitiated, can see the bare shape of it if we've got enough exposure. But it's stuff you've detailed about his pre-snap work, his command of the offense, his near flawless grasp of situational awareness, his leadership and the effect he has on teammates, the way he reads the field and gets to his secondary reads and outlets. He has a very wide, working grasp on the do's and dont's of execution, and he shows it play, after play, after play, after play. His accuracy and efficiency are plain enough to see, but taking those traits from the observation stage and translating them into insight is much harder. I think he's got something that the true elites have, in terms of the constellation of these traits. And that's why I say he has a high ceiling.

One of the reasons I like Fromm is because I commonly find the bear case on him to be overstated or illusory.

His arm strength is a great example of that. I do quite a bit of work every year measuring velocities of throws, and have been doing that for 15 years. As a result, I have a pretty good working knowledge of what sort of pass speeds are most common to the NFL at various distances, exempting touch throws and outlet passes. Jake Fromm very frequently hits those common velocities on his throws at Georgia. He does that even though his footwork and follow-through need some work (which isn't uncommon for a third year prospect). So people keep saying he doesn't have the arm talent for the NFL and yet because I can go very deep into this area, I know that they're dead wrong.

The other big knock on him is his mobility. But again this is where I can get a little deeper and I have to say, this is not the weakness others make it out to be. It's not a coincidence his sack rate has gone down significantly every year he's been at Georgia, and it's not purely because of the offensive line, either. The quarterback is the ultimate responsible party for a sack, and Fromm eliminates sacks by getting rid of the football or dodging pressure. He's not elusive like a Kyler Murray or Russell Wilson, and he's not got their speed. But I haven't forgotten either that as a freshman he ran 35 times for 219 yards, with 13 first downs. He's capable of that, it just depends on the way the defense is playing him, and what he's focusing on offensively (the system). He's got an unusually high career 1st down conversion rate on his runs, relative to his yards per carry. There's nothing mystical about that if you have been watching him long enough to be able to gauge how near flawless his situational awareness is. It means that a lot of his gains are going to be clustered around what was required on the play.

So the two greatest knocks on him...aren't really knocks. To me, they're actually strengths. At least, they are at the college level.

Which begs the question, what are the real knocks?

His hands measured 8.75 inches in high school. That can grow from when you're a 17 year old to when you're a 21 year old. But the fact his hands measured that way gives me a context for some of my other observations about him. It's the intersectionality with various other observations that makes it potentially dangerous:
  • For one, you've got the bad habit that Slimm has detailed about him flipping the ball in his hands after the snap. Sometimes he does it frantically. Most agree it's a bad habit. Does he need to do it to get an ideal grip on the football, so that he can rip it properly?
  • I note with dismay that he's had 11 lost fumbles in his career, which is a high number relative to his 42 sacks and 79 runs. Is that a hand size thing?
  • Similarly, why does it seem like he muffs a shotgun snap or a center exchange once a game?
  • Why did the coaches show zero faith in him to throw the football in the Kentucky game where it was wet and blustery? Is that a hand size thing? For that matter, why did it seem like Jake didn't have much faith in his own ability to grip and rip it in that weather?
  • Finally there's the simple fact that if you watch enough of his throws you're going to see quite a few flutter balls. The accuracy is good despite this, but the spin still isn't high quality. This is something that commonly gets better with professional maturity. UNLESS...is it a hand size thing?
There's also the way he handles pressure, something I think Slimm has touched on a number of times. He definitely shows a global tendency to lean away from defenders where he could be attacking the line of scrimmage, making people miss, etc. It's been gradually getting better during his three year career. But the speed of the NFL has a way of making you regress to what you showed earlier in your college career, until you start to get used to the speed of the game (that is, IF you ever get used to the speed of the game). Again the intersectionality of this trait is what makes it dangerous. Is this why he doesn't have great follow-through with his feet and hips on a lot of his throws? Is this a hard-wired thing or is it something he can work on?

Finally there's the simple fact that he doesn't have the size and strength of guys like Cam Newton, Ben Roethlisberger, or Carson Wentz. He doesn't have the cannon arm of guys like Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes, or Matthew Stafford. He doesn't have the speed or elusiveness of a Lamar Jackson or Kyler Murray, or the ability to go off-script like a Josh Allen, DeShaun Watson, or Russell Wilson. Some people make light of this, saying those things aren't necessary. They're not. But they certainly help! He's going to have to compete directly with Cam Newton, Ben Roethlisberger, Carson Wentz, Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes, Matthew Stafford, Kyler Murray, Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, DeShaun Watson, and Russell Wilson. It's simple: when you face one of them, either they win the game, or you win the game. Not having the sort of league-leading traits that they do can magnify your other shortcomings (which I've already outlined). He's going to have to show that he has things they don't have.

Where does this leave me on Jake Fromm? He's a high ceiling, low floor guy. If I can't get my hands on a high ceiling, high floor guy like Tua Tagovailoa, I'd be more than happy to put Fromm's name on my card come April.
 
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I moved Herbert to my #1 for Miami about a year ago. He is still at #1 for Miami with Fromm a very close second.

Dont really have a comp for Herbert I am confident in but kind of like Flacco as one, Fromm perplexes me because I want to say Derek Carr not sure that is super accurate. But I feel as if whoever comes in (if we draft a QB) will sit all next year. Even if for some miracle we are the first team selecting a QB they will sit which is ideal. Imagine if we take a WR high in this draft like a Ruggs and the QB sits most of next year maybe plays a bit towards the end unless we compete...then takes over with a receiving core of Williams a full year removed from surgery, Parker, Ruggs in year 2, Gesicki in year 4 and a vet like Hurns or whoever we bring in. Feels like a proper grooming and way to set up whomever for success.
 
Dont really have a comp for Herbert I am confident in but kind of like Flacco as one, Fromm perplexes me because I want to say Derek Carr not sure that is super accurate. But I feel as if whoever comes in (if we draft a QB) will sit all next year. Even if for some miracle we are the first team selecting a QB they will sit which is ideal. Imagine if we take a WR high in this draft like a Ruggs and the QB sits most of next year maybe plays a bit towards the end unless we compete...then takes over with a receiving core of Williams a full year removed from surgery, Parker, Ruggs in year 2, Gesicki in year 4 and a vet like Hurns or whoever we bring in. Feels like a proper grooming and way to set up whomever for success.
I'm a little bit different. I'm not a fan of assigning comp players. I'd rather just look at each in thier own. But that's just me. Herbert's physical stature is why I have him at 1. I don't know any other qb that processes defenses faster than Fromm. Also when I review players in only reviewing for fits to the dolphins.
In this draft i want Miami to go QB, DE and C in the first. Young, Herbert and Humphreys to me is the absolute grand slam first round. I want my new QB to grow up with his center from day one. C in Flo's offense is more important than OT.
 
I think you've got a nice read on Jake Fromm, which shouldn't surprise me as you've got so much exposure to him. I've been watching him pretty closely myself since that fantastic freshman campaign of his.

I think he's a classic boom or bust prospect. Most quarterbacks are. They either succeed spectacularly or fail spectacularly.

The bull case for him is on stuff that's not easy to see. You have to have a lot of exposure to him, or to be a coach, to see it. Those of us who aren't coaches, the uninitiated, can see the bare shape of it if we've got enough exposure. But it's stuff you've detailed about his pre-snap work, his command of the offense, his near flawless grasp of situational awareness, his leadership and the effect he has on teammates, the way he reads the field and gets to his secondary reads and outlets. He has a very wide, working grasp on the do's and dont's of execution, and he shows it play, after play, after play, after play. His accuracy and efficiency are plain enough to see, but taking those traits from the observation stage and translating them into insight is much harder. I think he's got something that the true elites have, in terms of the constellation of these traits. And that's why I say he has a high ceiling.

One of the reasons I like Fromm is because I commonly find the bear case on him to be overstated or illusory.

His arm strength is a great example of that. I do quite a bit of work every year measuring velocities of throws, and have been doing that for 15 years. As a result, I have a pretty good working knowledge of what sort of pass speeds are most common to the NFL at various distances, exempting touch throws and outlet passes. Jake Fromm very frequently hits those common velocities on his throws at Georgia. He does that even though his footwork and follow-through need some work (which isn't uncommon for a third year prospect). So people keep saying he doesn't have the arm talent for the NFL and yet because I can go very deep into this area, I know that they're dead wrong.

The other big knock on him is his mobility. But again this is where I can get a little deeper and I have to say, this is not the weakness others make it out to be. It's not a coincidence his sack rate has gone down significantly every year he's been at Georgia, and it's not purely because of the offensive line, either. The quarterback is the ultimate responsible party for a sack, and Fromm eliminates sacks by getting rid of the football or dodging pressure. He's not elusive like a Kyler Murray or Russell Wilson, and he's not got their speed. But I haven't forgotten either that as a freshman he ran 35 times for 219 yards, with 13 first downs. He's capable of that, it just depends on the way the defense is playing him, and what he's focusing on offensively (the system). He's got an unusually high career 1st down conversion rate on his runs, relative to his yards per carry. There's nothing mystical about that if you have been watching him long enough to be able to gauge how near flawless his situational awareness is. It means that a lot of his gains are going to be clustered around what was required on the play.

So the two greatest knocks on him...aren't really knocks. To me, they're actually strengths. At least, they are at the college level.

Which begs the question, what are the real knocks?

His hands measured 8.75 inches in high school. That can grow from when you're a 17 year old to when you're a 21 year old. But the fact his hands measured that way gives me a context for some of my other observations about him. It's the intersectionality with various other observations that makes it potentially dangerous:
  • For one, you've got the bad habit that Slimm has detailed about him flipping the ball in his hands after the snap. Sometimes he does it frantically. Most agree it's a bad habit. Does he need to do it to get an ideal grip on the football, so that he can rip it properly?
  • I note with dismay that he's had 11 lost fumbles in his career, which is a high number relative to his 42 sacks and 79 runs. Is that a hand size thing?
  • Similarly, why does it seem like he muffs a shotgun snap or a center exchange once a game?
  • Why did the coaches show zero faith in him to throw the football in the Kentucky game where it was wet and blustery? Is that a hand size thing? For that matter, why did it seem like Jake didn't have much faith in his own ability to grip and rip it in that weather?
  • Finally there's the simple fact that if you watch enough of his throws you're going to see quite a few flutter balls. The accuracy is good despite this, but the spin still isn't high quality. This is something that commonly gets better with professional maturity. UNLESS...is it a hand size thing?
There's also the way he handles pressure, something I think Slimm has touched on a number of times. He definitely shows a global tendency to lean away from defenders where he could be attacking the line of scrimmage, making people miss, etc. It's been gradually getting better during his three year career. But the speed of the NFL has a way of making you regress to what you showed earlier in your college career, until you start to get used to the speed of the game (that is, IF you ever get used to the speed of the game). Again the intersectionality of this trait is what makes it dangerous. Is this why he doesn't have great follow-through with his feet and hips on a lot of his throws? Is this a hard-wired thing or is it something he can work on?

Finally there's the simple fact that he doesn't have the size and strength of guys like Cam Newton, Ben Roethlisberger, or Carson Wentz. He doesn't have the cannon arm of guys like Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes, or Matthew Stafford. He doesn't have the speed or elusiveness of a Lamar Jackson or Kyler Murray, or the ability to go off-script like a Josh Allen, DeShaun Watson, or Russell Wilson. Some people make light of this, saying those things aren't necessary. They're not. But they certainly help! He's going to have to compete directly with Cam Newton, Ben Roethlisberger, Carson Wentz, Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes, Matthew Stafford, Kyler Murray, Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, DeShaun Watson, and Russell Wilson. It's simple: when you face one of them, either they win the game, or you win the game. Not having the sort of league-leading traits that they do can magnify your other shortcomings (which I've already outlined). He's going to have to show that he has things they don't have.

Where does this leave me on Jake Fromm? He's a high ceiling, low floor guy. If I can't get my hands on a high ceiling, high floor guy like Tua Tagovailoa, I'd be more than happy to put Fromm's name on my card come April.

I really appreciate the detailed look at Fromm and other prospects CK!!!

I think Fromm may have the most to gain from workouts, if his hands measure bigger and he throws the NFL ball well during drills you almost have to assume he does well with the interview and whiteboard sessions; if he has a good combine he can make a jump.

He is coachable and team first guy, so can he work past those hard wired elements? I know he will bust his ass to try but like mentioned will the speed of the game make him revert to bad habits or will he work with his coaching?

It will be a very interesting evaluation period especially if Tua is comes out and is doing any sort of activitiy
 
I really appreciate the detailed look at Fromm and other prospects CK!!!

I think Fromm may have the most to gain from workouts, if his hands measure bigger and he throws the NFL ball well during drills you almost have to assume he does well with the interview and whiteboard sessions; if he has a good combine he can make a jump.

He is coachable and team first guy, so can he work past those hard wired elements? I know he will bust his *** to try but like mentioned will the speed of the game make him revert to bad habits or will he work with his coaching?

It will be a very interesting evaluation period especially if Tua is comes out and is doing any sort of activitiy

I agree with you, he's going to have a very nice pre-draft process. Particularly if his hands measure well, like Baker Mayfield's did. The pre-draft process is almost tailor-made for him to exhibit his strengths, and to show that the widely perceived fears about him are overdone.
 
I can't exactly put a finger on why I'm not 100 percent sold on Herbert, but CK spelled it out pretty nicely. He obviously has some great traits and, I believe, that will get him drafted high. At this point, I could see Cincinnati deciding between Burrow or Herbert if they end up with that #1 pick. I could also see Miami trading up to #2 overall for the one Cincy doesn't take.

I'm also a fan of Fromm's. My only real negative on him, besides potentially hand-size which I know is a big deal for scouts, is that he's not going to get outside the pocket and make big plays like a Mahomes, Rodgers, Lamar Jackson etc. I would love Miami to have that multi-dimensional quarterback, but Fromm is someone I think a team can win with.
 
A little off topic, but quarterback related. Haven't heard much about Jalen Hurts, as far as his NFL value goes. I've read scouting reports questioning his ability to read defenses quickly, how he is basically limited to one read and run at Baylor. Kind of like how Jim Harbaugh handled Colin Kaepernick in San Francisco.

But to my eyes, I see a prospect a little bit like Lamar Jackson. Jackson has obviously been well-coached at Baltimore as his accuracy (the one big issue I remember), has improved dramatically.

I don't know if you can teach a quarterback to read defenses if that is indeed Hurts biggest issue. But wanted to get some thoughts on him.
 
Here is my answer.

Draft Tua in the first round.
It's a wait and see process for Tua. I don't know if he'll even be able to workout for scouts in April. That seems soon after a hip injury.

Without knowing how far along he is in rehab, I just can't see taking him high. Maybe you gamble at some point in the draft. Miami does have the draft capital to take a chance.
 
I think one big difference between Lamar Jackson and Jalen Hurts is that Jackson was running NFL concepts at Louisville. I think Hurts was probably running some NFL concepts early on at Alabama, but the tape of him doing so is part of the bear case on him, whereas the tape of Lamar Jackson executing NFL concepts was part of the bull case on him.
 
Here is my answer.

Draft Tua in the first round.
Just read that his prognosis is excellent. If that's the case and he regains mobility, I have to think Tua is still in play for Miami possibly even with their first #1 pick.
 
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