Who is the perfect CB in the draft for our defensive scheme ? | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Who is the perfect CB in the draft for our defensive scheme ?

fastball83

Seasoned Veteran
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
1,553
Reaction score
574
Age
55
Location
france (ST ETIENNE)
Hello,

Many here speak about Hargreaves, Apple, Mac Alexander, Fuller, William Jackson ect......but I would like who' is the best in your opinion for the defensive scheme we will run under Vance Joseph.

Please...don't tell a name for the pleasure of write a name but explain me why In your Opinion he is the best fit.

Thanks.
 
I read somewhere that Gase will adjust the schemes to fit our players. Will that be true for defense as well?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
Press corners...which means Eli Apple would be the best choice.

Its the same reason we brought Byron Maxwell in who excelled in press with Seattle.
 
We don't really know how Vance Joseph will put out his defense, but we've heard a fair amount which we tend to believe. If it is correct, we will be using bigger DE's to set the edge in the run game (e.g. Mario Williams instead of OV, and No Cam Wake on early downs). A LB corps that will be oriented around being able to run and hit, so more physicality, better run stopping up the middle, and less of the constant blitzing that Coyle employed. These changes are primarily designed to contain the run game. Then we have gap penetrators at DT and speed at LB to pressure the QB. This is designed to force the QB into pulling the trigger quickly, minimizing his ability to sit in the pocket and pick us apart and denying him the time to let a long pass develop. With less threat of a long pass, the DB's have less time they need to cover and can play tighter coverage. All that is a backdrop to our CB play. Vance Joseph, supposedly, wants to employ a press scheme, which emphasizes being very physical with the WR at the line of scrimmage and doing everything "legally allowable" to disrupt his route running and throw off his ability to be where the QB expects him when the QB checks that passing window. It also promotes very tight coverage, particularly on short to intermediate routes.

Here is my assessment according to what we believe right now:

1. Eli Apple
He has all the size, physicality, speed and fluidity needed to play press coverage at a very high level. Unfortunately, he's just not polished yet. At the moment, he is very grabby and draws a lot of flags. He isn't very ball-aware so doesn't capitalize on his opportunities to intercept the ball as much as he should. But, he is the best in the class at mirroring the WR with effortless athleticism. Vance Joseph is one of the very best teachers for DB's, and with Apple's tools, we could have a Josh Norman type CB if he develops.

2. William Jackson III
He doesn't quite have the size of Apple, but he has good size. Some see Jackson as primarily an off-man style of player, but he has flashed good ability to play with physicality. He is perhaps the fastest of the CB's and has good ball-awareness and ability to convert interception opportunities. I like him a lot ... but not everyone sees him as physical enough to get the job done, so this one is more of a projection.

3. Mackenzie Alexander
So he has all the physicality you want to see, and he only allowed 2 TD's, so he sounds like a perfect fit. But, he isn't. Watching his tape he maintains good contact and has enough speed and fluidity to play the technique, he is a little short to cover big receivers. More concerning is that he had zero interceptions ... nada ... that's absolutely horrible production in the turnover department. Can this be taught effectively? Personally, I don't think he will ever be good in this area and I don't like him as a prospect ... but I'm putting him at #3 because there is a sharp divide among evaluators. Some see him as the best press CB, and others (like me) see him as a late 2nd round or even 3rd round prospect that will be a very solid CB in a scheme like ours. No doubt he is a scheme fit ... it's all about where you come down on his lack of interceptions and lack of height.

4. Vernon Hargreaves III
IMHO, he is THE BEST CB in this draft. It's worth noting that I see Jalen Ramsey as a S not a CB. Hargreaves can play any scheme, but he is definitely best as an off-man rather than a press-man guy. I see him as a clone of the Clevland Browns star Joe Haden. He is undersized, fast but not blazing fast like Williams and Apple, and does great at maximizing his opportunites to intercept the ball. No doubt he would be very very good in our system ... but he is undersized, lacks the preferred physicality, and is a tad less speedy than you'd like for the press scheme. I'd draft him in a heartbeat ... but even I acknowledge that he isn't a true scheme fit. IMHO, he is the best CB and when it is all said and done he'll have the best career, but he likely isn't Vance Joseph's top choice.

5. Xavien Howard
I realize you didn't ask about him, but IMHO he's a great scheme fit too. It's unlikely we consider him in round 1, but if he's available in round 2 or 3 I can definitely see us grabbing him. He is a great scheme fit with the size and physicality you look for. He's also young and a very good ballhawk already. Yes, he is grabby and can collect flags, but he is the perfect style for this system and he already is doing the right things, he just needs to hone those skills, refine his game, and spend the time needed to become great. He's not the fastest, but his 40 times have been erratic. He timed at an abysmal 4.58 at the combine, but his tape shows he's faster than that. Then he turned around at his pro day and posted a blistering 4.38 ... but IMHO, he's not that fast on tape. Realistically, I'd say he's somewhere in the middle, and a big physical ballhawking young man who already plays the technique very well and runs in the 4.48 range is perfect for our system. No matter which CB we draft in round 1, I can see Howard being targeted by us for a round 2 or 3 selection. If we somehow do not select a CB in round 1, then I'd expect someone like Howard in round 2.

Realistically, any one of these 5 guys would step in day 1 and start opposite Maxwell. They'd all have growing pains, albeit Apple and Jackson would have the most growing pains. After 1 year under Vance Joseph though, I think all of them would provide decent to good play. Given our ferocious DL, the CB's shouldn't have to cover receivers all that long. And, we have an excellent safety in Reshad Jones .. and spent money to bring in another veteran Isa Abdul-Quddis to pair with him. So, our CB's are protected a bit.

The last name I'll mention is Artie Burns out of the University of Miami. This is an amazing kid and has all the physical tools you'd want. He's big enough and blazing fast, but he is extremely raw and more of a project than the other guys. Right now he's an athlete playing CB, not a CB that needs refinement. Down the road he may become a good CB and he has the tools to play press, but IMHO, he is just too raw for us to consider this year. We need a starter, and he's not it.

But, it looks to be a fairly safe bet that one of the 5 guys listed above can step in and start next year. Since our DC Vance Joseph specializes in developing DB's, I'll be very surprised if Tannenbaum doesn't get one of those 5 guys to groom. In fact, I'd say it would be a collassal drop of the ball by Tannebaum if we do not draft one of them.
 
I read somewhere that Gase will adjust the schemes to fit our players. Will that be true for defense as well?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

In general yes ... but my understanding is that Gase is in charge of the offense and is trusting Vance Joseph to build his own defense how he likes. I believe that Joseph is building that defense around Suh, so the adapting scheme would be a 43 scheme and the DB system he employs will complement that, so I don't think he is adjusting the rest of the team to fit the CB's he has, but rather adjusting the CB's to fit the star DT he has in Suh and the stellar DL we have built.

Hope that makes sense.
 
Nice write up, Digital!

No expert here, but after reading about Apple I just can't get excited about him. If he has no instincts or ball awareness there is no point in having a guy like that on our team. Offenses are just going to pick us apart. We need to take a legit starter at 13 and not a project. I would rather go for Howard or Burns in round 2.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Wow, what a write up. THAT is what is great about this forum. Thanks for your time and well-expressed opinions.
 
I like the idea of a versatile guy at cb. The wr should not line up every play know whether he has a free release,or not.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
James Bradberry is probably the ideal press CB in this draft, and he's currently projected in the 5th RD. He has 33+" arms, good speed, explosive power, and agility - and an elite overall athlete. My main gripe with Bradberry is that he sometimes played down to the level of his competition.

Sean Davis doesn't have ideal length - more in the range of guys like Apple and Jackson - but he's a great athlete, and he's very physical (5 FF's as a CB in 2015). Currently projected in the 5th RD (as a FS).

As an athlete Daryl Worley is a little similar to a thicker, stronger Tony Lippett. Good agility, great length, but 4.6 speed. Worley is more explosive than Lippett, and he's more refined at CB. Worley is currently projected in the 5th-6th RD.

Arti Burns has the length and speed you'd want, and he can make some plays, but he's currently projected in the 2nd. I'd like him better in the 4th range.

One sleeper, who is currently projected as an UDFA, DeAndre Elliot has good length (32" arms), with adequate speed, and very good overall athleticism. He's slight at 6'1 188lbs, and he's older than ideal, but I'd consider spending one of my 7th RD picks on his tools. Not a guy you bring in to start right away, but he's a better CB prospect than Lippett was (imo).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
So I guess the big question is, how far apart are these guys? Not counting Ramsey because we really have no shot at him, it seems to me that Hargreaves is probably the most NFL ready. Would it be fair to say that depending on scheme fit that the other guys are grouped fairly close together and considered a year or two out? Everybody is saying we need two CB's. How should we address this issue? Double down in the 1st and 2nd or double down on day 3?
 
I agree with your write up Digital except for you thoughts on Alexander (I know who would've thought :lol:).

He showed plenty of playmaking ability in spring practices and games even had a 3 interception day against none other than Deshaun Watson while he was covering Mike Williams all morning, who is the best WR prospect next year. He plays the ball well when he's actually getting tested on a more consistent basis. It is concerning that he had zero picks his playing career, but watching him first hand in spring games/practices he does have that ability.

Which is why I called him a smaller Vontae Davis, who didnt have a whole lot of turnovers during his time at Illinois.
 
I agree with your write up Digital except for you thoughts on Alexander (I know who would've thought :lol:).

He showed plenty of playmaking ability in spring practices and games even had a 3 interception day against none other than Deshaun Watson while he was covering Mike Williams all morning, who is the best WR prospect next year. He plays the ball well when he's actually getting tested on a more consistent basis. It is concerning that he had zero picks his playing career, but watching him first hand in spring games/practices he does have that ability.

Which is why I called him a smaller Vontae Davis, who didnt have a whole lot of turnovers during his time at Illinois.

Agreed...teams simply threw away from Mackenzie Alexander...which severly limited his int. Opportunities.
 
We don't really know how Vance Joseph will put out his defense, but we've heard a fair amount which we tend to believe. If it is correct, we will be using bigger DE's to set the edge in the run game (e.g. Mario Williams instead of OV, and No Cam Wake on early downs). A LB corps that will be oriented around being able to run and hit, so more physicality, better run stopping up the middle, and less of the constant blitzing that Coyle employed. These changes are primarily designed to contain the run game. Then we have gap penetrators at DT and speed at LB to pressure the QB. This is designed to force the QB into pulling the trigger quickly, minimizing his ability to sit in the pocket and pick us apart and denying him the time to let a long pass develop. With less threat of a long pass, the DB's have less time they need to cover and can play tighter coverage. All that is a backdrop to our CB play. Vance Joseph, supposedly, wants to employ a press scheme, which emphasizes being very physical with the WR at the line of scrimmage and doing everything "legally allowable" to disrupt his route running and throw off his ability to be where the QB expects him when the QB checks that passing window. It also promotes very tight coverage, particularly on short to intermediate routes.

Here is my assessment according to what we believe right now:

1. Eli Apple
He has all the size, physicality, speed and fluidity needed to play press coverage at a very high level. Unfortunately, he's just not polished yet. At the moment, he is very grabby and draws a lot of flags. He isn't very ball-aware so doesn't capitalize on his opportunities to intercept the ball as much as he should. But, he is the best in the class at mirroring the WR with effortless athleticism. Vance Joseph is one of the very best teachers for DB's, and with Apple's tools, we could have a Josh Norman type CB if he develops.

2. William Jackson III
He doesn't quite have the size of Apple, but he has good size. Some see Jackson as primarily an off-man style of player, but he has flashed good ability to play with physicality. He is perhaps the fastest of the CB's and has good ball-awareness and ability to convert interception opportunities. I like him a lot ... but not everyone sees him as physical enough to get the job done, so this one is more of a projection.

3. Mackenzie Alexander
So he has all the physicality you want to see, and he only allowed 2 TD's, so he sounds like a perfect fit. But, he isn't. Watching his tape he maintains good contact and has enough speed and fluidity to play the technique, he is a little short to cover big receivers. More concerning is that he had zero interceptions ... nada ... that's absolutely horrible production in the turnover department. Can this be taught effectively? Personally, I don't think he will ever be good in this area and I don't like him as a prospect ... but I'm putting him at #3 because there is a sharp divide among evaluators. Some see him as the best press CB, and others (like me) see him as a late 2nd round or even 3rd round prospect that will be a very solid CB in a scheme like ours. No doubt he is a scheme fit ... it's all about where you come down on his lack of interceptions and lack of height.

4. Vernon Hargreaves III
IMHO, he is THE BEST CB in this draft. It's worth noting that I see Jalen Ramsey as a S not a CB. Hargreaves can play any scheme, but he is definitely best as an off-man rather than a press-man guy. I see him as a clone of the Clevland Browns star Joe Haden. He is undersized, fast but not blazing fast like Williams and Apple, and does great at maximizing his opportunites to intercept the ball. No doubt he would be very very good in our system ... but he is undersized, lacks the preferred physicality, and is a tad less speedy than you'd like for the press scheme. I'd draft him in a heartbeat ... but even I acknowledge that he isn't a true scheme fit. IMHO, he is the best CB and when it is all said and done he'll have the best career, but he likely isn't Vance Joseph's top choice.

5. Xavien Howard
I realize you didn't ask about him, but IMHO he's a great scheme fit too. It's unlikely we consider him in round 1, but if he's available in round 2 or 3 I can definitely see us grabbing him. He is a great scheme fit with the size and physicality you look for. He's also young and a very good ballhawk already. Yes, he is grabby and can collect flags, but he is the perfect style for this system and he already is doing the right things, he just needs to hone those skills, refine his game, and spend the time needed to become great. He's not the fastest, but his 40 times have been erratic. He timed at an abysmal 4.58 at the combine, but his tape shows he's faster than that. Then he turned around at his pro day and posted a blistering 4.38 ... but IMHO, he's not that fast on tape. Realistically, I'd say he's somewhere in the middle, and a big physical ballhawking young man who already plays the technique very well and runs in the 4.48 range is perfect for our system. No matter which CB we draft in round 1, I can see Howard being targeted by us for a round 2 or 3 selection. If we somehow do not select a CB in round 1, then I'd expect someone like Howard in round 2.

Realistically, any one of these 5 guys would step in day 1 and start opposite Maxwell. They'd all have growing pains, albeit Apple and Jackson would have the most growing pains. After 1 year under Vance Joseph though, I think all of them would provide decent to good play. Given our ferocious DL, the CB's shouldn't have to cover receivers all that long. And, we have an excellent safety in Reshad Jones .. and spent money to bring in another veteran Isa Abdul-Quddis to pair with him. So, our CB's are protected a bit.

The last name I'll mention is Artie Burns out of the University of Miami. This is an amazing kid and has all the physical tools you'd want. He's big enough and blazing fast, but he is extremely raw and more of a project than the other guys. Right now he's an athlete playing CB, not a CB that needs refinement. Down the road he may become a good CB and he has the tools to play press, but IMHO, he is just too raw for us to consider this year. We need a starter, and he's not it.

But, it looks to be a fairly safe bet that one of the 5 guys listed above can step in and start next year. Since our DC Vance Joseph specializes in developing DB's, I'll be very surprised if Tannenbaum doesn't get one of those 5 guys to groom. In fact, I'd say it would be a collassal drop of the ball by Tannebaum if we do not draft one of them.

Good points, and why I've been thinking that we might go DL Robert Nkemdiche rd 1 and CB Xavien Howard rd 2. Also, Hargreaves' combine 40 time was adjusted to 4.41, his speed is right there with Jackson and Apple, plus he's much quicker than Jackson on film.
 
Ideal is eli apple boundary and cyrus jones slot

Starting boundary corner and much needed slot competition/insurance for bobby mccain

If you think about it this team has depth boundary options it doesnt have depth slot ones unless you think jamar taylor is a slot option...

if its true hargreaves 40 time was adjusted to 4.41 that absolutely hurts your chances at 13
 
Back
Top Bottom