Who REALLY Cares About "40" Time?? | Page 3 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Who REALLY Cares About "40" Time??

well, the only number i like to look at is the ten yard burst and the 3 cone drill that will tell you more about a player in a short area. when you look at the 10 yard burst when 2 players have a 4.4 and a 4.6 40 if the 10 yard burst are the same then the 40 time doesnt mean squat
 
Take a guy who runs a 4.4 on a track in ideal conditions, let him sprint up and down a football field for three quarters, and see if he's running a 4.4 in the fourth quarter.

Okay over-rated? Probably. But he still is faster than that other person at that given time. That is is. It is impossible to practically measure a persons 4th quarter speed, nor is it neccessary. The 40 is the best way we have, along with the splits, to measure a athletes short distance speed. Objective and intelligent people know how to use that information and factor it into a complete analysis of a prospect. Those that are not as objective know how to either call it the "key" measurement, or discount it entirely because of lack of education and information on how the sprint works and what its implications are.
 
the 40 time is an over rated tool for the "media" history has shown that the games best WR's all would lose a foot race to these 40 yard dash speedsters.

Steve Largent
Art Monk
Fred Belitnekoff(sp)
Micheal Irvin

hall of famers

Randal Hill
James Pruitt
Ashley Lellie
David Boston, might all out run those hall of famers but NONE will be in the HOF so IMO the 40 yard dash is overrated.
 
I'm sorry, but NONE of the arguments talking about why 40's are important have impressed me. The gist of my post was...

Compare the miniscule time between a 4.4 runner and a 4.5 runner. There's only ONE TENTH OF A SECOND difference, yet that "gap" (to some) is as wide as the Grand Canyon.

What can anyone physically do that only takes one tenth of a second to accomplish, from the start of one thing, to the start of another thing? In other words, a blink of an eye? .5 seconds.

Maybe I'm just nit-picking here. Here's the best analogy I could give...

Start two runners, one with 4.4 speed (fast guy), the other with 4.5 speed (slow guy), on the same line at the combine, and have them run straight ahead. Take a snapshot at the string a la a horse race finish. Are you people telling me that there would be NOTICEABLE SEPARATION between the two? And if so, does that REALLY translate to the field?

It just really irks me that one player is considered a better WR because of 40-time alone (the biggest measuring stick)...there's more to it than that...
 
Sure it's the end-all, be-all of the combine for receivers and running backs. But, come on...let's be real. That kind of time difference (i.e. between a 4.4 and a 4.6) doesn't matter a hill of beans when you're on the field.

Have you ever tried to count to 10 over the span of one second? Now imagine doing that, but stopping at "2." Probably can't be done. IF it can, could you even distinguish between when the first guy runs past you from the second at the 40-yard mark??? 4.4 speed at WR also doesn't matter if you're matched up with 4.4. speed at CB.

I don't think I could blow a fart past you in the .2 of a second everyone is squabbling about.

What matters is elusiveness, ability to stop, start and change directions, ability to "separate" and a decent pair of hands. Let's find a receiver with multiple qualities instead of one with "break-neck speed" who can mythically "stretch the field." If you're blazing toward the goal line, 10 yds behind your CB, but you can't catch the ball, you don't make it in my offense.

The real difference is between timed speed and game speed. Some players are fast in shorts and a wife-beater but when they put on pads lose a whole lot of mobility.

Ronnie Brown registered a 4.4 in the 40. Do even the biggest of all homers on this forum really think that Brown runs a 4.4 in pads? Brown can't run away from anyone in the secondary. The avid and sensible Dolfan who doesn't miss a game knows Ronnie Brown does not possess 4.4 speed on game day.

Ted Ginn Jr is explosive on and off the field. Watch his highlight reel and if you argue that the guy is not explosive, you're bias. The hits on Ginn are bad route running and size. Route running can be taught, learned, refined and chambers is 5'11 as someone alluded to earlier. Make no mistake about it, ted Ginn Jr has the biggest upside potential of ANY player in this years draft. He could be one hell of a bust aswell, but that's true of all players in the draft.
 
Testing

Okay over-rated? Probably. But he still is faster than that other person at that given time. That is is. It is impossible to practically measure a persons 4th quarter speed, nor is it neccessary. The 40 is the best way we have, along with the splits, to measure a athletes short distance speed. Objective and intelligent people know how to use that information and factor it into a complete analysis of a prospect. Those that are not as objective know how to either call it the "key" measurement, or discount it entirely because of lack of education and information on how the sprint works and what its implications are.

The sprint doesn't measure anything of great consequence. That's the rub. It's like an IQ test, its proponents tell you it is a valid measure of a quantity of intelligence called g, but it only measures one aspect of intelligence, problem solving, and one aspect of problem solving, speed in problem solving. If you take an IQ test without the time limit, you can raise your score 30-40 points, which is profound. The forty-yard dash, combined with some other testing metrics like the high jump, etc, has sent bad players soaring up draft charts, we've seen this again and again, so we know that some front offices become enamored with this test data. We've got good front offices and bad ones in the NFL, and the bad ones are more likely to abandon sound personnel evaluation then good ones.

I can disprove the underlying hypothesis of the forty-yard dash by compiling a list of great players who were not fast-footed as measured by the forty, in fact, that list would be much longer then the list of great players with speed. No one disputes that the forty has some utility, but if a large percentage, if not a majority of stars in the NFL did not record overly impressive forty times, we must conclude that whatever utility the forty has, is small. But the major point of this thread was that at the lower end of the spectrum, assuming the sprint does tell us something, one guy running a 4.4, the other guy running a 4.5/40, is a difference so slight as to be irrelevant, for mere hundreds of a second, the difference is absurd.

The testing protocal is also suspect, because some guys play faster on grass then they run on track surfaces, but the testing is done on tracks. In fact, many players refuse to run at the combine because they don't like the surface they're to run on, so they opt instead for a private workout at a facility of their choice, so they can run on surfaces that make them appear faster then they might otherwise be, how these subtle differences in forty times translate into data that deterimes a player's functional speed on a field is not clear to me. Thy installed field turf at the combine last year so the forty times would more resemble what might be achieved in a game situation, and players refused in mass to run on it. At UVA players ran on a tartan surface. At NCSU and BC they ran on rubber. USC ran outdoors with a big crosswind. Why such a big deal is made about a sprint that isn't run on surfaces, or in conditions that are even remotely similar is a mystery. If a guy at USC ran on one surface, and a guy at NCSU ran on another, and they both posted 4.5/40s, who then is faster? It doesn't matter, it's only when the differences become profound, 4.5 compared to a 4.7 that we should be much concerned.
 
If anyone remembered the "Playmakers' show they used to show on ESPn, it showed really great how important a 40yard dash speed could be. The vet RB on the team ran all the drills that you would run at the combine, and posted the same times and measures he had as a rookie, except for his 40 yard dash which was fractionally slower. The coach then showed him film of another RB(either the new guy or a different RB from the league who had a faster 40), and broked it down into tenths of a second. That fraction of a secon dwas the determining factor between being tackled for a 3 yard gain(like the vet would have been) or bursting just far enough past the tacklers to get the long TD run.

To think the 40 holds no relevance to on the field play is naive(i.e. Jarrett). To use it as the only determination of talent is naive too(i.e. Ginn). The other drills like 3 cone drill are great too, but the 40 is very important, as well as the 10, 20, 30 yard splits that get recorded.
 
If anyone remembered the "Playmakers' show they used to show on ESPn, it showed really great how important a 40yard dash speed could be. The vet RB on the team ran all the drills that you would run at the combine, and posted the same times and measures he had as a rookie, except for his 40 yard dash which was fractionally slower. The coach then showed him film of another RB(either the new guy or a different RB from the league who had a faster 40), and broked it down into tenths of a second. That fraction of a secon dwas the determining factor between being tackled for a 3 yard gain(like the vet would have been) or bursting just far enough past the tacklers to get the long TD run.

To think the 40 holds no relevance to on the field play is naive(i.e. Jarrett). To use it as the only determination of talent is naive too(i.e. Ginn). The other drills like 3 cone drill are great too, but the 40 is very important, as well as the 10, 20, 30 yard splits that get recorded.

Come on Stitches! I think you are a good poster on these boards but please don't bring up Playmakers in a serious discussion. That show was the most sensationalized rendition of football I've ever seen.
 
Come on Stitches! I think you are a good poster on these boards but please don't bring up Playmakers in a serious discussion. That show was the most sensationalized rendition of football I've ever seen.

Yes, it was sensationalized, and dramatically out there for a reason. But the illustration of tenths of a second in regards to game speed still holds true.
 
Sure it's the end-all, be-all of the combine for receivers and running backs. But, come on...let's be real. That kind of time difference (i.e. between a 4.4 and a 4.6) doesn't matter a hill of beans when you're on the field.

Have you ever tried to count to 10 over the span of one second? Now imagine doing that, but stopping at "2." Probably can't be done. IF it can, could you even distinguish between when the first guy runs past you from the second at the 40-yard mark??? 4.4 speed at WR also doesn't matter if you're matched up with 4.4. speed at CB.

I don't think I could blow a fart past you in the .2 of a second everyone is squabbling about.

What matters is elusiveness, ability to stop, start and change directions, ability to "separate" and a decent pair of hands. Let's find a receiver with multiple qualities instead of one with "break-neck speed" who can mythically "stretch the field." If you're blazing toward the goal line, 10 yds behind your CB, but you can't catch the ball, you don't make it in my offense.

I've pretty much always doubted the accuracy of the 40 times anyway. About 10 yeats ago, SI did an article about just that. While I don't rmemebr all the actual particulars, the general jist of it was this. Back in to 00 Olympics or when ever it was, Donvan bailey won the gold in the 100 meter. he was later DQd for steroid use, etc. They mentioned that his time in that race was on the fastest track with the most sophisitcated timing equipment and the whole 9 yards, in other words, the most perfect conditions possible. They had also mentioned that there was this old engineer fellow present and wondered what Bailey's 40 time would equate to be that the NFL uses so much. He gets out his slide rule, converted meters to yards and eveything, and calculated that Bailey's 40 time would be right at 4.29 secs. It was determined that at best, bailey might have and they reiterated might, have ran a 4.35 in a 40 in the way NFL players are timed. All in all, I found that story quite interesting in that if you look around and see how many players run a 4 flat or lower, this makes you want to raise an eyebrow. but SIs point was that if a drug induced worldclass sprinter that TRAINED solely for this alone would only run a 4.35 at best, then how is it that so many NFL players do on imperfect conditions. Well, IMO, it's a point well taken however, I do agree that a 4.6 plaer is not much different than a 4.4 player on the field. Maybe both actually run a true 4.5 maybe. IMO, the times only separate the guys in categories of being either slow, fast or just average. But if the nFL teams want to use the combine 40 times for evalutaion, then why not run all players at a position at the same time. You have to figure that the first guy that runs and the last guy, the field can not be level so to speak. I would imagine the grass will be worn quite alot for the last guy. Anyway, just a thought. :)
 
40 times are important in a way, but I think it's silly for some players to just fly up boards because they're fast. Some people (mainly fans and media) put too much emphasis on how fast someone is and it makes their jaw drop when they don't go first round (Sinorice Moss last year is a good example).

I do think you've got to take flyers when players run slow 40 times though. Jamaal Brimmer (a formr S from UNLV; same draft class as Vernon Carey) was considered a solid second round pick, bt he ran a 4.9 40 and went undrafted, same goes for Ernest Shazor and Brandon Browner.

I think there are other things more important than 40 times
 
40 times are important in a way, but I think it's silly for some players to just fly up boards because they're fast. Some people (mainly fans and media) put too much emphasis on how fast someone is and it makes their jaw drop when they don't go first round (Sinorice Moss last year is a good example).

I do think you've got to take flyers when players run slow 40 times though. Jamaal Brimmer (a formr S from UNLV; same draft class as Vernon Carey) was considered a solid second round pick, bt he ran a 4.9 40 and went undrafted, same goes for Ernest Shazor and Brandon Browner.

I think there are other things more important than 40 times

personally, I think reflexes, reaction and quickness [vs actual speed] are more important. put a bunch of DBs together and have them go thru these agility drills particualry where they kind of high step in place and see how quick they react to change directiond when a coach waves the ball over his head, back and forth. I'm sure there's a name for it but "stupid is as stupid does" ! :D :D
 
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