Who will have a better year, Bucs or Fins? | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Who will have a better year, Bucs or Fins?

NawlinsBucFan

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Last year I compared the three Florida teams position by position and concluded that the season would end Jags-Bucs-Fins. The Jags did do the best, but the Fins won more games than the Bucs. As I look now at the off season moves of each team and begin to size up the rosters, I still can't help but feel the Bucs have a slightly better team than the Fins.

The Bucs are better at:
QB- Jeff Garcia had a better season than any of the Fins' QBs or anyone being considered for the Fins. Gruden's system is a tailor fit for Jeff as well so I don't expect to see any dropoff. If the Fins do land Green, I don't know if you'll be getting pre-concussion, Pro-Bowl Green or post-concussion, rattled Green.

RB- The debate between RB and CW has been hashed and rehashed. After 2 seasons Carnell has 2253 yards from scrimmage and Ronnie has 2423. So I will not dispute a slight edge to Ronnie (FOR NOW). However, I think the Bucs depth is better than the Fins' at both HB and FB. That's not to say that Booker sucks. I just feel that Pittman, Graham and Darby are going to be better than Booker, Chatman and whoever else might make the team (Cobb?). Likewise, Alstott and Askew are a better FB tandum than Schlesinger and Mauia (LBs are a lot tougher than drywall).

TE- One of the oddest moves Cam has made as Fins coach was cutting McMichael without a legit option in place already. It's fine to say Martin and Peele have potential, but neither of them have ever had more than 27 catches in a season and both have been around for a while. Alex Smith has had 76 catches in just two seasons, we have added Jerremy Stevens and still have a great blocking TE in Becht.

OL- For a few years, the O-Lines have been a liability for both teams. This year the Bucs have added Luke Petitgout and Matt Lehr as well as drafting a beast in Arron Sears. The Fins have also added some players, but outside of the Satele, none of them seem to be outstanding upgrades over last year's players.

CB- With Phillip Buchanon, Ronde Barber and Brian Kelly, we have a group of guys with 62 career INTs. Throw in another former 1st round pick in Sammie Davis and you can see how easy it is for Bucs fans to feel REALLY confident in our corners. The Dolphins CBs are younger overall, but there just doesn't seem to be as many playmakers as we will have now that everyone is healthy.

The Fins are better at:
WR- Like the Fins RBs, there is a huge drop in talent for the Bucs behind our #1 WR. Galloway is still the man, and actually had a better year than any Fins WR, but behind him things look bleak. Chris Chambers may be up and down, but he's still a playmaker. Maybe Cameron can finally help him reach his full potential. Booker, Ginn and Hagan should also provide solid depth.

S- Hill, Bell, Allen and Tillman give the Fins a solid starting line up and decent depth. I don't think any one of them would be in the top 10 of NFL Safties, but they have talent and do their jobs well enough. The Bucs drafted well at Saftey, but will still have to go into the season with Phillips and Will Allen as the starters. Yuck.

KR- Everyone talks about Ted Ginns speed, but it takes more than just speed to return kicks. You also need good vision and instincts for setting up blocks and finding seems. The good news for Dolfans is Ginn has all of that as well as sick speed. Pittman has done a better job returning kicks than anyone we've ever had and P-Buc is a decent punt returner, but neither one is in Ginn's league.

We are pretty even at:
DL- We've done a lot to improve our DL this offseason. Signing Kevin Carter away from the Fins to play UT should improve our pass rush and Gaines Adams, I think, has much more upside than Matt Roth. However, I respect the different looks your defensive front gives. It's a much more complex system than the Tampa 2 and the players you have, JT, Holliday and Traylor, pull it off very well.


LB- You have a future HoFer in Thomas, we have one in Brooks. You have an 'In his prime' top tier FA in Porter, we have one in Cato June. You have a promising up and comer in Crowder, we have one in Ruud. You have a solid, hard working back up/former starter in Spragan, we have one in Nece. It doesn't get much more even than that.

I'm sure most of you disagree with most of this post, so lets debate. And please try to keep it somewhat civil. No insulting my family or anything. :wink:
 
Tough to say who'll be better. I don't think the Dolphins will be very good this year, but the Bucs have the potential to be even worse, given Gruden's psychotic coaching style. Depends on if he has another meltdown.
 
Any of you 'laughable' guys care to bring something to the table?
 
Well, for starters, how "even" are Ruud and Crowder's numbers.

Crowder had 84 and 103 tackles his first two seasons, Ruud had 17 and 57. You can talk all you want about potential, but Crowder has had two solid starting seasons in the league, Ruud is far behind him in his development.

I also have to question the "even" defensive line comparisons, when your big FA addition was a guy we cut free. Kevin Carter is solid, but if you expect any more than that you will be disappointed. His replacement, Matt Roth, who you deem to have less upside than Gaines, has played two seasons and improved consistently over that time. His first year, he had 20 tackles and 1 sack in limited action, and last year had 36 tackles and 3.5 sacks - very respectable numbers for a backup. He seems to be well on his way, and while Gaines was a top draft pick, you have to think there will be more of a learning curve than you anticipate. Even Mario Williams had only 4.5 sacks in his first season, and Gaines comes with as many questions as he did - mainly, whether he will have the necessary bulk to take on NFL tackles. So, I think you are slightly overrating the guy, which is normal due to his draft position, but because of that I would have to give the Dolphins the edge on the defensive line.
 
Considering the dolphins run a 3-4 base defense, you have to include Jason Taylor (2006 Defensive Player of the year) as a linebacker, and coulped with Porter, Thomas, and Crowder we have arguably the best in the leauge. There much more accomplished and talented than the Bucs. Your essentially stating that the Bucs front seven is on par with the Dolphins which is ridiculous. Why do you think you guys drafted Gaines Adams with such a premium pick? Whereas you guys had a diffucult time generating a pass rush last year, the Dolphins have totaled 60 and 47 sacks in 2005 and 2006 respectively - not to mention the the countless force fumbles.

Furthermore, I dont think you guys have an advantage at running back or on the offensive line. Considering the production I'd have to say were pretty even, and only time will tell who comes out ahead. All in all, the comparitive advantage without bias goes to:

Bucs over Fins:
Quarterbacks
Tight End
Secondary as a whole

Fins over Bucs:
Defensive Line
Linebackers
Special Teams
Wide Reciever

Even until season unfolds:
Offensive Line
Running Backs
 
eckonice said:
Considering the dolphins run a 3-4 base defense, you have to include Jason Taylor (2006 Defensive Player of the year) as a linebacker, and coulped with Porter, Thomas, and Crowder we have arguably the best in the leauge. There much more accomplished and talented than the Bucs. Your essentially stating that the Bucs front seven is on par with the Dolphins which is ridiculous. Why do you think you guys drafted Gaines Adams with such a premium pick? Whereas you guys had a diffucult time generating a pass rush last year, the Dolphins have totaled 60 and 47 sacks in 2005 and 2006 respectively - not to mention the the countless force fumbles.

Furthermore, I dont think you guys have an advantage at running back or on the offensive line. Considering the production I'd have to say were pretty even, and only time will tell who comes out ahead. All in all, the comparitive advantage without bias goes to:

Bucs over Fins:
Quarterbacks
Tight End
Secondary as a whole

Fins over Bucs:
Defensive Line
Linebackers
Special Teams
Wide Reciever

Even until season unfolds:
Offensive Line
Running Backs
Click to expand...

Thats better.
 
eckonice said:
Considering the dolphins run a 3-4 base defense, you have to include Jason Taylor (2006 Defensive Player of the year) as a linebacker, and coulped with Porter, Thomas, and Crowder we have arguably the best in the leauge. There much more accomplished and talented than the Bucs. Your essentially stating that the Bucs front seven is on par with the Dolphins which is ridiculous. Why do you think you guys drafted Gaines Adams with such a premium pick? Whereas you guys had a diffucult time generating a pass rush last year, the Dolphins have totaled 60 and 47 sacks in 2005 and 2006 respectively - not to mention the the countless force fumbles.

Furthermore, I dont think you guys have an advantage at running back or on the offensive line. Considering the production I'd have to say were pretty even, and only time will tell who comes out ahead. All in all, the comparitive advantage without bias goes to:

Bucs over Fins:
Quarterbacks
Tight End
Secondary as a whole

Fins over Bucs:
Defensive Line
Linebackers
Special Teams
Wide Reciever

Even until season unfolds:
Offensive Line
Running Backs
Click to expand...

That's whats up.
 
Dolfan1000 said:
Well, for starters, how "even" are Ruud and Crowder's numbers.

Crowder had 84 and 103 tackles his first two seasons, Ruud had 17 and 57. You can talk all you want about potential, but Crowder has had two solid starting seasons in the league, Ruud is far behind him in his development.

I also have to question the "even" defensive line comparisons, when your big FA addition was a guy we cut free. Kevin Carter is solid, but if you expect any more than that you will be disappointed. His replacement, Matt Roth, who you deem to have less upside than Gaines, has played two seasons and improved consistently over that time. His first year, he had 20 tackles and 1 sack in limited action, and last year had 36 tackles and 3.5 sacks - very respectable numbers for a backup. He seems to be well on his way, and while Gaines was a top draft pick, you have to think there will be more of a learning curve than you anticipate. Even Mario Williams had only 4.5 sacks in his first season, and Gaines comes with as many questions as he did - mainly, whether he will have the necessary bulk to take on NFL tackles. So, I think you are slightly overrating the guy, which is normal due to his draft position, but because of that I would have to give the Dolphins the edge on the defensive line.
Click to expand...

You're point about Ruud and Crowder is well taken, however I would say that Ruud is a more developed player now than Crowder was when he took over as your starter. Crowder was a rookie who was practically thrown to the wolves out of the Dolfins immediate need. Ruud has been playing behind one of the more outstanding MLBs in the NFL in Shelton Quarles. Quarles is also a guy who the Bucs are considering bringing back as a coach, so for Ruud to have had time to learn from him can only help is development.

On the surface, your statement about Gaines not being big enough to take on NFL Tackles sounds logical. However, he's actually about the same size as Rice and Kearse and actually bigger than Jason Taylor, Michael Strahan and Dwight Freeney. He's speed and atheticism is more comparable to guys like Taylor and Rice.

If you want to discredit Ruud and Adams because I talked about their potential, then you have to discredit Ginn and Hagan as well, don't you? After all, Ginn has yet to so much as run a PRACTICE route in the NFL and Hilliard had more catches than Hagan. So throwing out 'potential' might get you the DL and LBs, but you lose WR and KR. Not that I agree with that thinking at all.
 
eckonice said:
Considering the dolphins run a 3-4 base defense, you have to include Jason Taylor (2006 Defensive Player of the year) as a linebacker, and coulped with Porter, Thomas, and Crowder we have arguably the best in the leauge. There much more accomplished and talented than the Bucs. Your essentially stating that the Bucs front seven is on par with the Dolphins which is ridiculous. Why do you think you guys drafted Gaines Adams with such a premium pick? Whereas you guys had a diffucult time generating a pass rush last year, the Dolphins have totaled 60 and 47 sacks in 2005 and 2006 respectively - not to mention the the countless force fumbles.

Furthermore, I dont think you guys have an advantage at running back or on the offensive line. Considering the production I'd have to say were pretty even, and only time will tell who comes out ahead. All in all, the comparitive advantage without bias goes to:

Bucs over Fins:
Quarterbacks
Tight End
Secondary as a whole

Fins over Bucs:
Defensive Line
Linebackers
Special Teams
Wide Reciever

Even until season unfolds:
Offensive Line
Running Backs
Click to expand...

I dont think the olines are even because the Bucs have adressed the line in thier draft two years in a row and we will be starting new guys everywhere on the line in positions they have not played in the NFL. As for runningbacks i give a slight edge to TB because they have a proven backup and have more depth at FB with the addition of BJ askew. I think the Dl's are even, after Taylor there is abig drop off in talent on our line, they have Simeon rice, Gaines Adams and Kevin carter Also Chris Hovan played pretty well last year.
 
NawlinsBucFan said:
Last year I compared the three Florida teams position by position and concluded that the season would end Jags-Bucs-Fins. The Jags did do the best, but the Fins won more games than the Bucs. As I look now at the off season moves of each team and begin to size up the rosters, I still can't help but feel the Bucs have a slightly better team than the Fins.

The Bucs are better at:
QB- Jeff Garcia had a better season than any of the Fins' QBs or anyone being considered for the Fins. Gruden's system is a tailor fit for Jeff as well so I don't expect to see any dropoff. If the Fins do land Green, I don't know if you'll be getting pre-concussion, Pro-Bowl Green or post-concussion, rattled Green.

RB- The debate between RB and CW has been hashed and rehashed. After 2 seasons Carnell has 2253 yards from scrimmage and Ronnie has 2423. So I will not dispute a slight edge to Ronnie (FOR NOW). However, I think the Bucs depth is better than the Fins' at both HB and FB. That's not to say that Booker sucks. I just feel that Pittman, Graham and Darby are going to be better than Booker, Chatman and whoever else might make the team (Cobb?). Likewise, Alstott and Askew are a better FB tandum than Schlesinger and Mauia (LBs are a lot tougher than drywall).

TE- One of the oddest moves Cam has made as Fins coach was cutting McMichael without a legit option in place already. It's fine to say Martin and Peele have potential, but neither of them have ever had more than 27 catches in a season and both have been around for a while. Alex Smith has had 76 catches in just two seasons, we have added Jerremy Stevens and still have a great blocking TE in Becht.

OL- For a few years, the O-Lines have been a liability for both teams. This year the Bucs have added Luke Petitgout and Matt Lehr as well as drafting a beast in Arron Sears. The Fins have also added some players, but outside of the Satele, none of them seem to be outstanding upgrades over last year's players.

CB- With Phillip Buchanon, Ronde Barber and Brian Kelly, we have a group of guys with 62 career INTs. Throw in another former 1st round pick in Sammie Davis and you can see how easy it is for Bucs fans to feel REALLY confident in our corners. The Dolphins CBs are younger overall, but there just doesn't seem to be as many playmakers as we will have now that everyone is healthy.

The Fins are better at:
WR- Like the Fins RBs, there is a huge drop in talent for the Bucs behind our #1 WR. Galloway is still the man, and actually had a better year than any Fins WR, but behind him things look bleak. Chris Chambers may be up and down, but he's still a playmaker. Maybe Cameron can finally help him reach his full potential. Booker, Ginn and Hagan should also provide solid depth.

S- Hill, Bell, Allen and Tillman give the Fins a solid starting line up and decent depth. I don't think any one of them would be in the top 10 of NFL Safties, but they have talent and do their jobs well enough. The Bucs drafted well at Saftey, but will still have to go into the season with Phillips and Will Allen as the starters. Yuck.

KR- Everyone talks about Ted Ginns speed, but it takes more than just speed to return kicks. You also need good vision and instincts for setting up blocks and finding seems. The good news for Dolfans is Ginn has all of that as well as sick speed. Pittman has done a better job returning kicks than anyone we've ever had and P-Buc is a decent punt returner, but neither one is in Ginn's league.

We are pretty even at:
DL- We've done a lot to improve our DL this offseason. Signing Kevin Carter away from the Fins to play UT should improve our pass rush and Gaines Adams, I think, has much more upside than Matt Roth. However, I respect the different looks your defensive front gives. It's a much more complex system than the Tampa 2 and the players you have, JT, Holliday and Traylor, pull it off very well.


LB- You have a future HoFer in Thomas, we have one in Brooks. You have an 'In his prime' top tier FA in Porter, we have one in Cato June. You have a promising up and comer in Crowder, we have one in Ruud. You have a solid, hard working back up/former starter in Spragan, we have one in Nece. It doesn't get much more even than that.

I'm sure most of you disagree with most of this post, so lets debate. And please try to keep it somewhat civil. No insulting my family or anything. :wink:
Click to expand...


Simms will be your QB
 
eckonice said:
Considering the dolphins run a 3-4 base defense, you have to include Jason Taylor (2006 Defensive Player of the year) as a linebacker, and coulped with Porter, Thomas, and Crowder we have arguably the best in the leauge. There much more accomplished and talented than the Bucs. Your essentially stating that the Bucs front seven is on par with the Dolphins which is ridiculous. Why do you think you guys drafted Gaines Adams with such a premium pick? Whereas you guys had a diffucult time generating a pass rush last year, the Dolphins have totaled 60 and 47 sacks in 2005 and 2006 respectively - not to mention the the countless force fumbles.

Furthermore, I dont think you guys have an advantage at running back or on the offensive line. Considering the production I'd have to say were pretty even, and only time will tell who comes out ahead. All in all, the comparitive advantage without bias goes to:

Bucs over Fins:
Quarterbacks
Tight End
Secondary as a whole

Fins over Bucs:
Defensive Line
Linebackers
Special Teams
Wide Reciever

Even until season unfolds:
Offensive Line
Running Backs
Click to expand...

Well thought out post, but you are also trying to have things both ways. If you are saying that JT is a linebacker, then that does swing LB to the Fins, however it solidly swings DL to the Bucs for the simple fact that we have Simeon Rice....We have a healthy Simeon Rice back. If Taylor is a LB, there is no one on the Dolphins D-Line who can bring pressure like Rice just like there are no LBs on the Bucs who can bring pressure like Taylor. Of course, since they are comepletely different systems, it is also safe to say that there are no LBs on the Fins who can cover down field as well as the Bucs with June, Brooks, and Ruud.

Bucs over Fins:
Quarterbacks
Tight End
Secondary as a whole
Defensive Line

Fins over Bucs:
Special Teams
Wide Reciever

Even until season unfolds:
Linebackers
Offensive Line
Running Backs
 
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