Why the Satele/grove exchange could be a total failure

[dlcmdrx]

Taken from another forum:

How quickly we all forget what kind of blocking scheme he had success with by blocking the big men 1v1.
The zone blocking scheme.
And how quickly we all forget how well Satele blocked the big men in that scheme his rookie season.
The only difference between Groves and Satele is their blocking mentality. Satele is a finesse blocker, while Groves is a physical blocker.
But here's the thing, neither blocking style gives an edge over one another when it comes to blocking a big man heads up.
There are 3 main ingrediants you must have to be successful against the big men:
A good punch (to stop there momentom off the snap)
Stay lower (if your center of gravity is lower than there's, they will have a real tough time moving you and your job of moving them is much easier)
Great lower body strength (your push comes from your lower body and its gonna take a strong one to push a 350lb man who doesn't want to be moved)

Here is the problem that I have had with the Satele Groves thing since it happened.
Groves may have a slightly better punch, but he doesn't stay low on blocks. And that is something that Satele was always so good at as a finesse blocker, staying low. Neither of them possess any better than above average lower body strength.
This is why I have never understood why we pay Groves 5+ million per season and Oakland pays Satele 900k per season.
Mark my words, and as I have said before, we will not be able to run through the tackles again this season unless through trickery.
We have the highest paid o-line in the league and not even a top 10 line overall.
Once again, UFA's has been a major failure with this regime.

and:

I'm surprised to see Deadly so critical of one of our own guys, (Ovaw I expect it from :wink: ). The complaint is legit, but its certainly too early to panic. More data is required, I'd give it two more games before we'll be sure if we're in trouble or not.

I do it much more than people give me credit for...
Here is the problem with that Deets, this was his only true test during the pre-season.
This week we play the Panthers, who just lost their only dominate DT for the season. So I expect to see a big improvement against them. After that, we play the Bucs, who we should have success with. Our last game, where most important starters do not play would be a test, but I doubt the Saints play Ellis for that game to begin with.
So his next "true" test is week 1 when we play the Falcons, who have an extremely tough D-line. In which he will be blocking Babineaux, who is a tough block.
Week 2 we have a rest, because lets face it, the Colts interior D-line is pretty un-impressive. So I expect to be able to run at will, it's just to bad we will have to pass at will to keep up with them and win.
Than from weeks 3-9, we get to go against some of the best big men in the league every week.
If we want to have a winning record this season, we have to be able to run between the tackles. How far do people think the wildcat will really bring us this season?
Answer: Not enough to win any games without being effective in our base run offense.

Any chance he was just shaky in his first game playing in the Dolphins system? Because his numbers from last year don't show him being inept against top nose tackles.

But thats the issue, you gotta throw those numbers out the window.
Last season he played in a ZBS blocking system. The same that Satele played in his rookie season when Ronnie Brown was running through truck size holes up the middle.
Ovaw could explain this better than I, because it would come from a players perspective that has been there done that, I can only explain it from a coach perspective (As Ovaw was a Center and I was a LB'er). But I will sum it up for you and maybe Ovaw will catch this and elaborate for everyone. When playing in the ZBS blocking a big man becomes a much easier job to accomplish than taking them straight on and having to move them to a specific location.
Both Satele and Groves had a very high success rate in the ZBS, but once they where put in the Dolphins "mauler" scheme, they couldn't be as successful.
And lets remember that Satele is younger and more of an athlete than Groves, who we pay 4 million more per season to have.
I thought it was a huge fail when we did it and now after seeing how he blocked a big man in this scheme, I am certain it will be a fail.
I wanted nothing more than to see Groves push Henderson around, but what I want and what reality is never equals up....

What do you think??

 

[dlcmdrx]

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=339209&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

 

[ArmyFin7]

It seems like a valid point on the surface...but when you think about going 1 on 1....the ZBS becomes irrelivant. When it's grove vs a DT/NT with no healp from either side Grove will win more than Satele. The advantage with grove IMO is more evident in the passing game than the running game. Too many times last season Satele was coming out of his stance and already being moved backward. Our pass pro from the first string O-line Monday night was excellent. Grove did an excellent job holding his own. I think the running lanes will open when this unit gets a little more time together and shake some rust off....It seemed like a lot of running plays there were always 4 guys that made their assignment and one guy blew it. Not always the same guy, they seemed to take turns. Just need more time and practice against live bullets IMO.

 

[dolpns13]

It could be, or could not be, a total failure... We will find out... I would like to see this mean streak that everyone says Groves has though

 

[ArmyFin7]

One point that was made is in theis scheme you have to win one on one matchups....more often than not Satele lost those matchups to the likes of Jenkins, Wilfolk and Ngata....

 

[fishypete]

I don't remember Grove getting man handled during the game. If any thing the pressure came from both tackle positions.

Satele gave up way too much pressure up the middle to the NT's he faced...QB's hate to have pressure up the middle...and for obvious reasons.

 

[ArmyFin7]

He didnt get man handled, but he didn't dominate either.

 

[3rdandinches]

When it comes right down to it taking on Nt's is more about mentallity then technique. Especially when running the ball up the gut in short yardage situations and Groves has it. He got the job done last year playing against the NT's in our division and there was plenty of film for our coaches to base their decision. He'll be fine.

 

[FinHopeful]

I don't remember Grove getting man handled during the game. If any thing the pressure came from both tackle positions.

Satele gave up way too much pressure up the middle to the NT's he faced...QB's hate to have pressure up the middle...and for obvious reasons.

Agreed. Here is my evaluation of Jake Grove's performance.

 

[fishypete]

Agreed. Here is my evaluation of Jake Grove's performance.

I believe the false start was Henne's fault. Otherwise a fair evaluation...but it was the first game and the first time the O-line played for real ( heated battle ) and it takes time for the O-line to come together.

 

[Lou]

I trust our front office to know who is a better fit. We'll see at the end of the year:-)

 

[Gardenhead]

I trust our front office to know who is a better fit. We'll see at the end of the year:-)

That's a total cop-out response...and yet I agree 100%. If there is one position that Sparano should be able to accurately evaluate, it's the OL. Parcells is pretty good at it as well.

I trust them on this one.

 

[burger13]

maybe Satele is still adjusting to the Raiders system, but I watched some of the Raiders 1st pre-season game and he looked lost out there.....often not blocking anyone at all. I thought it was interesting that he was still in late 2nd quarter when I turned the game on...maybe they think he needs the extra work...sure looked like he did.

I had that in mind while watching our preseason game and concentrating on Grove some...I felt like we were ahead in the deal at this early stage.

 

[nosleep]

Ngata threw Satele aside like a ragdoll last season. Where was his lower center of gravity there?

One quarter of preseason football and people start writing off players. You know what? Jake Long had a bad first quarter too, was it a bad move drafting him? Relax...

 

[Dr. Phin]

I don't remember Grove getting man handled during the game. If any thing the pressure came from both tackle positions.

Satele gave up way too much pressure up the middle to the NT's he faced...QB's hate to have pressure up the middle...and for obvious reasons.

This is where it appears we have improved. Grove seams to be better in pass protection...but, seems to be about the same with respect to the run.