Wow Even The Pats Toadies Rolling Over On The Tua Vs Mac Debate

[EJay]

Even haters can admit that Belichick is a great defensive coach, but it's also true that he hasn't been winning as many games post-Brady. So, picture this:

But, one of his non-Brady rosters won 11 games with Matt Cassel starting at QB. In 2008.

And even in these post-Brady years, they are still around a .500 team. Not good, but certainly not bad either. They also managed a 10-7 season and postseason birth in 2021 with a rookie Mac Jones playing QB. If that doesn't signal good coaching and "team" contributions, I don't know what does.

They lack explosive play makers on offense and aren't quite the rushing team they've been, yet they remain a formidable team.

It seems most are enamored with Justin Herbert and his talent even though he's a .500 QB at 26-26 as a starter -- "what if" the Cheatriots had him as their starting QB with the same roster they've got now? They'd almost certainly be better than the .500 level team they've been.

Again, it takes a "team" to win, and the Cheatriots field good all-around teams much of the time. If they have a good QB, they seem to succeed very well. And even when the QB play is subpar (Brady wasn't good in 2018, Jones isn't all that good now) they still manage to be competitive and/or overachieve.

 

[gofins60]

But, one of his non-Brady rosters won 11 games with Matt Cassel starting at QB. In 2008.

And even in these post-Brady years, they are still around a .500 team. Not good, but certainly not bad either. They also managed a 10-7 season and postseason birth in 2021 with a rookie Mac Jones playing QB. If that doesn't signal good coaching and "team" contributions, I don't know what does.

They lack explosive play makers on offense and aren't quite the rushing team they've been, yet they remain a formidable team.

It seems most are enamored with Justin Herbert and his talent even though he's a .500 QB at 26-26 as a starter -- "what if" the Cheatriots had him as their starting QB with the same roster they've got now? They'd almost certainly be better than the .500 level team they've been.

Again, it takes a "team" to win, and the Cheatriots field good all-around teams much of the time. If they have a good QB, they seem to succeed very well. And even when the QB play is subpar (Brady wasn't good in 2018, Jones isn't all that good now) they still manage to be competitive and/or overachieve.

True, but my "what if" scenario was basically just having fun with the idea of embarrassing the great Belichick.

 

[Super Duper Clayton]

Mmmm this thread is delicious. What can I say? I’m petty

 

[phinsforlife]

Bill's record would be worse if he didn't have to play the jest twice a yr

much worse. they are less than .500 since brady left with the 9 wins against the jets

 

[phinsforlife]

But, one of his non-Brady rosters won 11 games with Matt Cassel starting at QB. In 2008.

And even in these post-Brady years, they are still around a .500 team. Not good, but certainly not bad either. They also managed a 10-7 season and postseason birth in 2021 with a rookie Mac Jones playing QB. If that doesn't signal good coaching and "team" contributions, I don't know what does.

They lack explosive play makers on offense and aren't quite the rushing team they've been, yet they remain a formidable team.

It seems most are enamored with Justin Herbert and his talent even though he's a .500 QB at 26-26 as a starter -- "what if" the Cheatriots had him as their starting QB with the same roster they've got now? They'd almost certainly be better than the .500 level team they've been.

Again, it takes a "team" to win, and the Cheatriots field good all-around teams much of the time. If they have a good QB, they seem to succeed very well. And even when the QB play is subpar (Brady wasn't good in 2018, Jones isn't all that good now) they still manage to be competitive and/or overachieve.

like i said the cassell year is over-rated. that was a loaded team that went 17-0 the prior year. matt cassel was also pretty good, and ended up being a pro bowler in kc. so that was less belichick than it is presented. but even with the benefit of the cassell year, belicheat still a losing record w out tommie boy

 

[EJay]

like i said the cassell year is over-rated. that was a loaded team that went 17-0 the prior year. matt cassel was also pretty good, and ended up being a pro bowler in kc. so that was less belichick than it is presented. but even with the benefit of the cassell year, belicheat still a losing record w out tommie boy

25-25 the past 3 full seasons. This season still has to play itself out, but I’ll bet they are around .500 again.

Name me the teams and the coaches that are usually any better than .500 when they don’t have a QB.

Mike Tomlin is considered among the best head coaches of the past decade. His Steelers teams have been barely treading .500 w/o a QB the past couple seasons. We see the mess Sean Payton is in right now, and he’s been considered a top HC too. And many considered the Jests (not me) a top team until Aaron Rodgers went down. Now look at them.

You need a well-rounded team to win in this league, but you also need a QB to take the next step from mediocre to good or great.

The Cheatriots don’t have that QB but have a good enough roster right now that if you transplanted prime Tom Brady there right now, they’d be contending with Miami and Buffalo for division supremacy. Or better yet, just give them one of the better QB’s in the league right now and they’d be the same type of team they were when Brady was there. A contender.

As I said before, they went 10-7 during Mac Jones rookie season. You seem to want to discount the 2008 season (no, Cassel wasn’t more than an average QB), but you can’t discount 10-7 w/ Jones.

Don’t forget, the Cheatriots played well with Jimmy Garoppolo too which is largely the reason he rose to prominence and was coveted by numerous teams around the league and whom the 49ers eventually traded for.

Point is, you can keep pointing to Belecheat not winning a title since Brady left but not many coaches win anything w/o a franchise QB — which NE doesn’t currently have. Blame Belecheat if/when he doesn’t win with one, not when he doesn’t win w/o one.

Further, you’re not considering what Brady would have done elsewhere if he didn’t end up on a loaded TB team and have Gronk follow him there. Let’s say TB went to Detroit or JAX and didn’t win anything. The excuse would have been he didn’t have enough talent around him. Well, Belecheat doesn’t have a franchise QB.

Fact is, both have shown that when they have the talent, they can win.

 

[sandcastle]

Belichick got very lucky. In 1998, Parcells and him thought they had a Super Bowl team. The next season, Vinny Testaverde was injured, which lead to Parcells transitioning the coaching job to Belichick. Instead of taking over a team with an uncertain QB, Belichick landed that Patriots job with an existing franchise QB, Drew Bledsoe -- a big, strong passer that fit his history.

In his first season with the Patriots (2000), they regressed from Pete Carroll's team and finished 5-11. The next season, Bledsoe is knocked out of the 2nd game vs the Jets by Mo Lewis. Brady takes over and goes 11-3 and wins the Super Bowl after the 0-2 start. I've never seen anything that linked Belichick to select or expecting Brady would be the starter. On the other hand, Kraft has made comments on his involvement.

 

[AMakados10]

Tua’s talent is definitely getting maximized.

Admittedly, I was a fan of Jones coming out and hated him dropping to Pats. Fortunately, the Pats have Dolphins castoffs as their weapons with Parker and Gesicki so they aren’t dangerous on offense.

That being said, Mac can suck a dick though. Dude is a dirty player in the NFL.

 

[djphinfan]

25-25 the past 3 full seasons. This season still has to play itself out, but I’ll bet they are around .500 again.

Name me the teams and the coaches that are usually any better than .500 when they don’t have a QB.

Mike Tomlin is considered among the best head coaches of the past decade. His Steelers teams have been barely treading .500 w/o a QB the past couple seasons. We see the mess Sean Payton is in right now, and he’s been considered a top HC too. And many considered the Jests (not me) a top team until Aaron Rodgers went down. Now look at them.

You need a well-rounded team to win in this league, but you also need a QB to take the next step from mediocre to good or great.

The Cheatriots don’t have that QB but have a good enough roster right now that if you transplanted prime Tom Brady there right now, they’d be contending with Miami and Buffalo for division supremacy. Or better yet, just give them one of the better QB’s in the league right now and they’d be the same type of team they were when Brady was there. A contender.

As I said before, they went 10-7 during Mac Jones rookie season. You seem to want to discount the 2008 season (no, Cassel wasn’t more than an average QB), but you can’t discount 10-7 w/ Jones.

Don’t forget, the Cheatriots played well with Jimmy Garoppolo too which is largely the reason he rose to prominence and was coveted by numerous teams around the league and whom the 49ers eventually traded for.

Point is, you can keep pointing to Belecheat not winning a title since Brady left but not many coaches win anything w/o a franchise QB — which NE doesn’t currently have. Blame Belecheat if/when he doesn’t win with one, not when he doesn’t win w/o one.

Further, you’re not considering what Brady would have done elsewhere if he didn’t end up on a loaded TB team and have Gronk follow him there. Let’s say TB went to Detroit or JAX and didn’t win anything. The excuse would have been he didn’t have enough talent around him. Well, Belecheat doesn’t have a franchise QB.

Fact is, both have shown that when they have the talent, they can win.

Pats don’t have the skill player to compete at a high level imo, to easy to defend, too one dimensional and too slow

 

[djphinfan]

Tua’s talent is definitely getting maximized.

Admittedly, I was a fan of Jones coming out and hated him dropping to Pats. Fortunately, the Pats have Dolphins castoffs as their weapons with Parker and Gesicki so they aren’t dangerous on offense.

That being said, Mac can suck a dick though. Dude is a dirty player in the NFL.

Tuas skill players are getting their talents maximized

 

[royalshank]

That's a mischaracterization. Belecheat built some excellent defenses, and almost always had top notch special teams during TB's time in NE.

If you count up all the worthwhile players, there's something like up to 15 Cheatriots from 2001 to 2019 that have a shot at the HOF (obviously including Belecheat himself). Multiple defensive players, a kicker and more than a few offensive talents.

That's not "luck" that's, building an amazingly deep team with great coaching. People need to stop giving one player credit for a team accomplishment that lasted nearly 2 decades. As I've pointed out before, the last couple Brady years in NE were carried by the defense. They won the SB in 2018 scoring 13 points. Their defense was lights out. Same happened their 1st SB win too. Also, they once won 10 games with Matt Cassel starting at QB for an entire season. They have always been the epitome of "team".

You’re right though BB couldn’t win w these first round pick QBs : Kosar, Testaverde, Bledsoe, Cam Newton, Mac Jones. I have a hard time making sense of this given what Shula did w so many different QBs across 2 different teams. For me it takes some of the shine off BB though yes I know he’s a great coach

 

[phinsforlife]

Belichick got very lucky. In 1998, Parcells and him thought they had a Super Bowl team. The next season, Vinny Testaverde was injured, which lead to Parcells transitioning the coaching job to Belichick. Instead of taking over a team with an uncertain QB, Belichick landed that Patriots job with an existing franchise QB, Drew Bledsoe -- a big, strong passer that fit his history.

In his first season with the Patriots (2000), they regressed from Pete Carroll's team and finished 5-11. The next season, Bledsoe is knocked out of the 2nd game vs the Jets by Mo Lewis. Brady takes over and goes 11-3 and wins the Super Bowl after the 0-2 start. I've never seen anything that linked Belichick to select or expecting Brady would be the starter. On the other hand, Kraft has made comments on his involvement.

believe it or not, chris griers father, bobby grier, drafted brady for the pats

 

[royalshank]

25-25 the past 3 full seasons. This season still has to play itself out, but I’ll bet they are around .500 again.

Name me the teams and the coaches that are usually any better than .500 when they don’t have a QB.

Mike Tomlin is considered among the best head coaches of the past decade. His Steelers teams have been barely treading .500 w/o a QB the past couple seasons. We see the mess Sean Payton is in right now, and he’s been considered a top HC too. And many considered the Jests (not me) a top team until Aaron Rodgers went down. Now look at them.

You need a well-rounded team to win in this league, but you also need a QB to take the next step from mediocre to good or great.

The Cheatriots don’t have that QB but have a good enough roster right now that if you transplanted prime Tom Brady there right now, they’d be contending with Miami and Buffalo for division supremacy. Or better yet, just give them one of the better QB’s in the league right now and they’d be the same type of team they were when Brady was there. A contender.

As I said before, they went 10-7 during Mac Jones rookie season. You seem to want to discount the 2008 season (no, Cassel wasn’t more than an average QB), but you can’t discount 10-7 w/ Jones.

Don’t forget, the Cheatriots played well with Jimmy Garoppolo too which is largely the reason he rose to prominence and was coveted by numerous teams around the league and whom the 49ers eventually traded for.

Point is, you can keep pointing to Belecheat not winning a title since Brady left but not many coaches win anything w/o a franchise QB — which NE doesn’t currently have. Blame Belecheat if/when he doesn’t win with one, not when he doesn’t win w/o one.

Further, you’re not considering what Brady would have done elsewhere if he didn’t end up on a loaded TB team and have Gronk follow him there. Let’s say TB went to Detroit or JAX and didn’t win anything. The excuse would have been he didn’t have enough talent around him. Well, Belecheat doesn’t have a franchise QB.

Fact is, both have shown that when they have the talent, they can win.

Ejay, I’m with you mostly on all of this but…. The “Don” used 5 different QBs to go to 6 SBs. Some of them, like David Woodley were drafted in the 8th round / and / or backups or really old. BB has had a lot of 1st round draft picks as QBs. In fact, he’s never NOT had one as his no 1 guy to start the season:

- Bernie Kosar
- Vinny Testaverde
- Drew Bledsoe
- Cam Newton
- Mac Jones

I believe Shula has winning records w any of these QBs - some of them went to SBs and / or title games in their own right so it’s not like they were busts. I just can’t square away the fact that he’s got a losing record without Brady. And then Brady goes to Tampa and they win it all. Not a good look for Bill IMO.

I think he’s one of the greatest coaches ever - don’t get me wrong. I’m just saying I think Shula was better. 33 years coaching, only 2 losing seasons.

 

[royalshank]

Oh I certainly don't forget...I've had to remind several people, on this forum, several times about it myself lol.

That said...Burrow's season was spectacular, won a title, all by presenting himself as ice-water and total cool...and he's an Ohio kid, and he's closer to proto-type. I just believe they'da took him regardless.

Burrow was the safer pick and the Bengals we’re gonna take him IMO. Also, Burrow (and Herbert for that matter) were more NFL-ready than Tua as rookies. Even though Flores sucked ass, Tua needed time to adjust to the NFL more so than the other two guys. It was evident when he played for Flores and it’s obvious in just how much faster he does everything from last year to this year. Had MM or some other QB-friendly couch drafted Tua I think he’d have made the big jump in year 2 vs year 3.5 let’s call it

 

[royalshank]

Belichick got very lucky. In 1998, Parcells and him thought they had a Super Bowl team. The next season, Vinny Testaverde was injured, which lead to Parcells transitioning the coaching job to Belichick. Instead of taking over a team with an uncertain QB, Belichick landed that Patriots job with an existing franchise QB, Drew Bledsoe -- a big, strong passer that fit his history.

In his first season with the Patriots (2000), they regressed from Pete Carroll's team and finished 5-11. The next season, Bledsoe is knocked out of the 2nd game vs the Jets by Mo Lewis. Brady takes over and goes 11-3 and wins the Super Bowl after the 0-2 start. I've never seen anything that linked Belichick to select or expecting Brady would be the starter. On the other hand, Kraft has made comments on his involvement.

**** Mo Lewis. It’s all his fault