Wow Even The Pats Toadies Rolling Over On The Tua Vs Mac Debate

[EJay]

You’re right though BB couldn’t win w these first round pick QBs : Kosar, Testaverde, Bledsoe, Cam Newton, Mac Jones. I have a hard time making sense of this given what Shula did w so many different QBs across 2 different teams. For me it takes some of the shine off BB though yes I know he’s a great coach

What are you defining "winning" as? Because no HC won championships with any of those guys as starting QB's.

Belecheat won 12 games (including 1 playoff game) with Testaverde as his starter in 1994. He ditched Kosar in year 2 in Cleveland, who clearly wasn't much of a QB anymore and became a backup in Miami. Bledsoe only played one season for Bill and Newton was past his prime and a shell of his former self when he played for him.

You're using name recognition against him. All but one of those QB's weren't in their prime or any good any more.

And I'm not sure any HC is winning anything with Mac Jones, but Belecheat did get to a postseason game with that guy so there's at least that.

You name me any head coach that was winning more than Belecheat with those players and those rosters.

I'm as big a Cheatriot hater as there is. I think both Brady and Belecheat should lose shine for their roles in spygate, deflategate and all the other questionable nonsense. That said, I still contend that most HC's don't win in today's NFL without a capable franchise QB. Belecheat is doing as well as any coach would do with average to below average QB's.

Brady won w/o Belecheat because he joined another high level roster. When Belecheat has another high level QB, he'll win again too. Unless he retires before that happens

 

[EJay]

Ejay, I’m with you mostly on all of this but…. The “Don” used 5 different QBs to go to 6 SBs. Some of them, like David Woodley were drafted in the 8th round / and / or backups or really old.

Vastly different eras. You just cannot compare the 70's and early 80's with 90's through today. Back then, the run game was king and QB not near as important. The rule set didn't favor offenses near as much thus QB's weren't slinging it like they do today.

As much as I'm a Don Shula fan, he wasn't able to adapt so well with the times as the 80's progressed into the 90's. He never surrounded Marino with the right talent and certainly didn't get the defense figured out. Again, the late 80's and 90's were much different than the 70's and early 80's. The things Shula was able to accomplish with the likes of Woodley he wasn't able to do later in his coaching career.

Hell, the guy only got the Dolphins to one SB appearance with arguably the greatest QB of all time.

So not a good argument here, bro.

- Bernie Kosar
- Vinny Testaverde
- Drew Bledsoe
- Cam Newton
- Mac Jones

I believe Shula has winning records w any of these QBs - some of them went to SBs and / or title games in their own right so it’s not like they were busts. I just can’t square away the fact that he’s got a losing record without Brady. And then Brady goes to Tampa and they win it all. Not a good look for Bill IMO.

I think he’s one of the greatest coaches ever - don’t get me wrong. I’m just saying I think Shula was better. 33 years coaching, only 2 losing seasons.

As I stated before, you're listing those QB based off name recognition.

Kosar wasn't any good anymore by the time Belecheat took over in Cleveland. And I'd make the argument that Kosar was only ever barely an above average even in his prime. The Schottenheimer era Browns were driven by their 2 stud RB's and their defense. Kosar was a care taker. The guy was a 3,000 to 3,500 yards per season QB that never threw for more than 22 TD's in any one season. Hanging your hat on him is silly.

I already mentioned that Belecheat won 12 games including a postseason game with Testaverde, so that point is counterfeited.

We don't know whether BB could have won with Bledsoe because he only had him for one season -- BB first season as coach of the Cheatriots. He then correctly replaced him with Brady once Bledsoe was injured and Brady won over the job, did he not? He actually got a lot of criticism for that realtime, but it proved to be the right thing to do. But had Brady not come along, we have no idea how things would have gone with Drew at the helm in the long term. So that's an unfair example.

Cam Newton was completely shot by the time he played for Bill. I can't believe you're dropping Cam's name as if Belecheat had him during his prime or even when still capable. That's another silly name drop. He even went back to Carolina the next season and stunk it up worse than in NE.

Don Shula nor any other HOF HC was winning anything with that version of Cam Newton, nor were they winning with the 90's version of Bernie Kosar. As also said before, Shula drastically underachieved with the great Dan Marino! Why you believe he could win with those other QB's is baffling! Maybe during the 70's and early 80's when defense and the run game dominated the era -- but certainly not in the 90's!

 

[royalshank]

What are you defining "winning" as? Because no HC won championships with any of those guys as starting QB's.

Belecheat won 12 games (including 1 playoff game) with Testaverde as his starter in 1994. He ditched Kosar in year 2 in Cleveland, who clearly wasn't much of a QB anymore and became a backup in Miami. Bledsoe only played one season for Bill and Newton was past his prime and a shell of his former self when he played for him.

You're using name recognition against him. All but one of those QB's weren't in their prime or any good any more.

And I'm not sure any HC is winning anything with Mac Jones, but Belecheat did get to a postseason game with that guy so there's at least that.

You name me any head coach that was winning more than Belecheat with those players and those rosters.

I'm as big a Cheatriot hater as there is. I think both Brady and Belecheat should lose shine for their roles in spygate, deflategate and all the other questionable nonsense. That said, I still contend that most HC's don't win in today's NFL without a capable franchise QB. Belecheat is doing as well as any coach would do with average to below average QB's.

Brady won w/o Belecheat because he joined another high level roster. When Belecheat has another high level QB, he'll win again too. Unless he retires before that happens

Well, that’s a lot of rationalizing IMO over good QBs. I’m defining winning as winning records. He had 1 winning record in Cleveland. When he got there he had Kosar who wasn’t far removed from his ‘86, ‘87 and ‘89 AFC title game runs, he had one winning season w Testaverde true. But look at all of those sub-.500 seasons w good QBs. Shula went to a SB w David Woodley and Don Strock. I’m not suggesting Belichik isn’t great. My whole thing here is I believe Shula was the better coach. Not GM, but coach

 

[royalshank]

Vastly different eras. You just cannot compare the 70's and early 80's with 90's through today. Back then, the run game was king and QB not near as important. The rule set didn't favor offenses near as much thus QB's weren't slinging it like they do today.

As much as I'm a Don Shula fan, he wasn't able to adapt so well with the times as the 80's progressed into the 90's. He never surrounded Marino with the right talent and certainly didn't get the defense figured out. Again, the late 80's and 90's were much different than the 70's and early 80's. The things Shula was able to accomplish with the likes of Woodley he wasn't able to do later in his coaching career.

Hell, the guy only got the Dolphins to one SB appearance with arguably the greatest QB of all time.

So not a good argument here, bro.




As I stated before, you're listing those QB based off name recognition.

Kosar wasn't any good anymore by the time Belecheat took over in Cleveland. And I'd make the argument that Kosar was only ever barely an above average even in his prime. The Schottenheimer era Browns were driven by their 2 stud RB's and their defense. Kosar was a care taker. The guy was a 3,000 to 3,500 yards per season QB that never threw for more than 22 TD's in any one season. Hanging your hat on him is silly.

I already mentioned that Belecheat won 12 games including a postseason game with Testaverde, so that point is counterfeited.

We don't know whether BB could have won with Bledsoe because he only had him for one season -- BB first season as coach of the Cheatriots. He then correctly replaced him with Brady once Bledsoe was injured and Brady won over the job, did he not? He actually got a lot of criticism for that realtime, but it proved to be the right thing to do. But had Brady not come along, we have no idea how things would have gone with Drew at the helm in the long term. So that's an unfair example.

Cam Newton was completely shot by the time he played for Bill. I can't believe you're dropping Cam's name as if Belecheat had him during his prime or even when still capable. That's another silly name drop. He even went back to Carolina the next season and stunk it up worse than in NE.

Don Shula nor any other HOF HC was winning anything with that version of Cam Newton, nor were they winning with the 90's version of Bernie Kosar. As also said before, Shula drastically underachieved with the great Dan Marino! Why you believe he could win with those other QB's is baffling! Maybe during the 70's and early 80's when defense and the run game dominated the era -- but certainly not in the 90's!

Because Shula won games w Doug Pedersen and Kyle Mackey and David Woodley and and and. But I disagree that QB wasn’t as important back then. Keep in mind they called their own plays most of the time. And you’d be hard pressed to find a team that won a SB in the 60’s and 70’s who didn’t have a great QB. Now you can have Nick Foles and Trent Dilfer - so while the game is more QB driven, all ships rise w the tide in a sense. Doesn’t make the guy under center more or less important than he ever was. He still has to make plays to win big games as he always has. Don won w run-oriented and pass oriented attacks over 33 years. To say he didn’t evolve into the 90’s is wrong IMO. We signed the first big FA in Keith Jackson. We got to a title game in ‘92 and challenged in ‘90 and ‘94. Don’s last season we made playsoffs. His last 4 seasons were actually more successful than Jimmy Johnson’s first 4 with us. As for the game passing one by - is BB adapting to the new fast break NFL? He has zero speed on that team and his big FA haul had been por rejects in Parker and Gesicki. The game passes them all by - as it’s doing to BB right now. Yet Shula lasted longer as his eye for talent began to slip he was still going to playoffs and title games. BB can’t even get to .500 and his team doesn’t stand a chance - they are slow and very 10 years ago IMO

 

[royalshank]

Vastly different eras. You just cannot compare the 70's and early 80's with 90's through today. Back then, the run game was king and QB not near as important. The rule set didn't favor offenses near as much thus QB's weren't slinging it like they do today.

As much as I'm a Don Shula fan, he wasn't able to adapt so well with the times as the 80's progressed into the 90's. He never surrounded Marino with the right talent and certainly didn't get the defense figured out. Again, the late 80's and 90's were much different than the 70's and early 80's. The things Shula was able to accomplish with the likes of Woodley he wasn't able to do later in his coaching career.

Hell, the guy only got the Dolphins to one SB appearance with arguably the greatest QB of all time.

So not a good argument here, bro.




As I stated before, you're listing those QB based off name recognition.

Kosar wasn't any good anymore by the time Belecheat took over in Cleveland. And I'd make the argument that Kosar was only ever barely an above average even in his prime. The Schottenheimer era Browns were driven by their 2 stud RB's and their defense. Kosar was a care taker. The guy was a 3,000 to 3,500 yards per season QB that never threw for more than 22 TD's in any one season. Hanging your hat on him is silly.

I already mentioned that Belecheat won 12 games including a postseason game with Testaverde, so that point is counterfeited.

We don't know whether BB could have won with Bledsoe because he only had him for one season -- BB first season as coach of the Cheatriots. He then correctly replaced him with Brady once Bledsoe was injured and Brady won over the job, did he not? He actually got a lot of criticism for that realtime, but it proved to be the right thing to do. But had Brady not come along, we have no idea how things would have gone with Drew at the helm in the long term. So that's an unfair example.

Cam Newton was completely shot by the time he played for Bill. I can't believe you're dropping Cam's name as if Belecheat had him during his prime or even when still capable. That's another silly name drop. He even went back to Carolina the next season and stunk it up worse than in NE.

Don Shula nor any other HOF HC was winning anything with that version of Cam Newton, nor were they winning with the 90's version of Bernie Kosar. As also said before, Shula drastically underachieved with the great Dan Marino! Why you believe he could win with those other QB's is baffling! Maybe during the 70's and early 80's when defense and the run game dominated the era -- but certainly not in the 90's!

PS - you’re one of my favorite posters so please understand this is healthy fun debate from me. You’re one of the best dudes on here

 

[circumstances]

believe it or not, chris griers father, bobby grier, drafted brady for the pats

it's in his jeans!

 

[Ozfin]

this could cost Mac even further

 

[Crump]

not trying to get political nor do i want this to turn remotely political, but this was my favorite part of the entire article. McDrip had the Trump handshake on Bellicheat. Countless videos of Trump showing how he tried to disrespect and show power over other leaders by how he shook their hands then pulled the arm in close. McD right now is saying "I'm your daddy bitch" with that handshake

 

[royalshank]

For discussion on the BB vs Shula debate. As I stated earlier, that’s a lot of losing seasons w QBs like Kosar, Testaverde, Bledsoe, Newton and Mac Jones - all no 1 round picks. I believe Shula does much better w those teams.

Shula: 33 seasons coached, 2 losing seasons. 0 seasons gaining competitive advantage via cheating.

BB: 29 seasons coaches, 8 losing seasons. Cheated throughout the 2000’s including the filming of the Rams practices before the SB.

 

[BobbbyTee]

Burrow was the safer pick and the Bengals we’re gonna take him IMO. Also, Burrow (and Herbert for that matter) were more NFL-ready than Tua as rookies. Even though Flores sucked ass, Tua needed time to adjust to the NFL more so than the other two guys. It was evident when he played for Flores and it’s obvious in just how much faster he does everything from last year to this year. Had MM or some other QB-friendly couch drafted Tua I think he’d have made the big jump in year 2 vs year 3.5 let’s call it

Nah that's revisionist history. Tua was the consensus #1 pick up until the time of his injury which then happened to coincide with Joe Burrow finishing the season on an absolute heater. If Burrow and Herbert were considered more "NFL-ready", it was only because Tua had a career-threatening hip injury which many thought would take 12-18 months to fully recover from, if he ever did. Herbert in particular was considered a "raw talent" with major bust potential. Likewise, Burrow had 4 garbage seasons in college and followed up with that one monster season. They had more NFL-ready "bodies" and they were healthy. But Tua had more time playing at an elite level in college and was the most NFL-ready of the three before his injury.

 

[keller377]

Burrow was the safer pick and the Bengals we’re gonna take him IMO. Also, Burrow (and Herbert for that matter) were more NFL-ready than Tua as rookies. Even though Flores sucked ass, Tua needed time to adjust to the NFL more so than the other two guys. It was evident when he played for Flores and it’s obvious in just how much faster he does everything from last year to this year. Had MM or some other QB-friendly couch drafted Tua I think he’d have made the big jump in year 2 vs year 3.5 let’s call it

Perhaps the Bengals still take Burrow #1.
But keep in mind LSU would probably still need to play Alabama w Tua in the playoffs.

I can get Was and NYG rolling with their QBs, but do you really think Detroit would pass up a healthy Tua? Nobody trades to the top 4 for Healthy Tua?

 

[Dolphin Mule]

I hope no one is fooled by this. Wilt Chamberlin.

 

[Danny]

Vastly different eras. You just cannot compare the 70's and early 80's with 90's through today. Back then, the run game was king and QB not near as important. The rule set didn't favor offenses near as much thus QB's weren't slinging it like they do today.

As much as I'm a Don Shula fan, he wasn't able to adapt so well with the times as the 80's progressed into the 90's. He never surrounded Marino with the right talent and certainly didn't get the defense figured out. Again, the late 80's and 90's were much different than the 70's and early 80's. The things Shula was able to accomplish with the likes of Woodley he wasn't able to do later in his coaching career.

Hell, the guy only got the Dolphins to one SB appearance with arguably the greatest QB of all time.

So not a good argument here, bro.




As I stated before, you're listing those QB based off name recognition.

Kosar wasn't any good anymore by the time Belecheat took over in Cleveland. And I'd make the argument that Kosar was only ever barely an above average even in his prime. The Schottenheimer era Browns were driven by their 2 stud RB's and their defense. Kosar was a care taker. The guy was a 3,000 to 3,500 yards per season QB that never threw for more than 22 TD's in any one season. Hanging your hat on him is silly.

I already mentioned that Belecheat won 12 games including a postseason game with Testaverde, so that point is counterfeited.

We don't know whether BB could have won with Bledsoe because he only had him for one season -- BB first season as coach of the Cheatriots. He then correctly replaced him with Brady once Bledsoe was injured and Brady won over the job, did he not? He actually got a lot of criticism for that realtime, but it proved to be the right thing to do. But had Brady not come along, we have no idea how things would have gone with Drew at the helm in the long term. So that's an unfair example.

Cam Newton was completely shot by the time he played for Bill. I can't believe you're dropping Cam's name as if Belecheat had him during his prime or even when still capable. That's another silly name drop. He even went back to Carolina the next season and stunk it up worse than in NE.

Don Shula nor any other HOF HC was winning anything with that version of Cam Newton, nor were they winning with the 90's version of Bernie Kosar. As also said before, Shula drastically underachieved with the great Dan Marino! Why you believe he could win with those other QB's is baffling! Maybe during the 70's and early 80's when defense and the run game dominated the era -- but certainly not in the 90's!

Shula had some horrible drafts in the 80's and that's the reason he didn’t win a SB with Marino......there was a stretch of 8 years where we got nothing out of the 1st round.

 

[Rev Kev]

Where are those local Boston TV morons who said Mac was better than Tua?

 

[lynx]

Perhaps the Bengals still take Burrow #1.
But keep in mind LSU would probably still need to play Alabama w Tua in the playoffs.

I can get Was and NYG rolling with their QBs, but do you really think Detroit would pass up a healthy Tua? Nobody trades to the top 4 for Healthy Tua?

I could never understand why Detroit didn't take Tua or Herbert anyways, what a complete waste of a draft pick in a very good year