I would like to hear more opinions of CK and Boomer about our draft plans. | Page 20 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

I would like to hear more opinions of CK and Boomer about our draft plans.

The problem with those hypothetical is that the draft doesn't work that way. It's not a take out order where you call in and say "I'll take Long in the 1st round , then I'll take Groves in the 2nd an order of egg rolls and a side of steamed rice" What happens when you bank that Groves is going to be there at #32 and he's taken at #23? What do you do then? Scramble and reach? Pray that something magically falls into your lap later in the draft? Ignore maybe the most important position in the 3-4 defense?

Secondly, that's the beauty of it being the deepest OT class in the last 25 years ... you're not forced to take a Cherlius in the 2nd round. You can take CB, QB, TE, WR and there will still be be starting caliber OTs in 3rd and 4th round. Good luck finding premium pass rushers in this draft in the 3rd or 4th round. I think some people still haven't adjusted to the idea of the 3-4 when they say "You can find LB's anywhere". Maybe you can find 4-3 chase and pursuit style linebackers anywhere, but 3-4 OLBs are pass rushers and they are perhaps the most highly sought after skillset in the NFL. Parcells didn't want long in the draft to take DeMarcus Ware or Jon Abraham or Willie McGinnest.
 
CJGoCanes said:
Since we're talking about OT/OLB combos, honestly which would you rather have:

A. Jake Long / Quentin Groves
B. Chris Long / Gosder Cherilus

Immediate impact:
OT- You could plug either one at RT instantly. However, Long would be just as good as a run blocker, most likely better, and a better pass blocker. Plus, you could put Long at LT, and he could be good, which I don't think is possible for Cherilus
OLB- I think both could be rotated in at OLB immediately if we keep both Porter and JT. I feel Long would be a better run stuffer and Groves would be a better pass rusher

Long term:
OT: Both could be stud RT, with Long having a better ceiling I think. But Long could end up being a stud LT, if not immediately, with added coaching and strength. I think Cherilus is limited to the right side
OLB: Both could end up being very good OLB. With Long, you get a tireless worker and leader. But I think the upside for Groves is higher as a pass-rushing OLB

Obviously, I feel the Jake Long / Quentin Groves combo is better both in the immediate future and in the long run
Click to expand...

Theres probably a better chance Cherilus lasts until #32 than Quentin Groves.

However, Groves does not have more upside than Chris Long.
 
FriendofBill said:
The problem with those hypothetical is that the draft doesn't work that way. It's not a take out order where you call in advance and tell the operator "I'll take Long in the 1st round and then I'll take Groves in the 2nd" What happens when you bank that Groves is going to be there at #32 and he's taken at #23? What do you do then? Scramble and reach? Pray that something magically falls into your lap later in the draft? Ignore maybe the most important position in the 3-4 defense?

Secondly, what if I don't want Cherlius in the 2nd? What if I would rather fill another position (CB, WR, QB, TE) in the second round and fill OT in another round considering its the deepest OT class in the last 25 years?
Click to expand...

It wasn't a fill in the blank question, where you're supposed to hypothesize who is going where and who will be left. It was either A or B. Guess you didn't get the which would you rather have part

I then provided my answer and opinion for such an answer, and was looking for intelligent responses to that specific question, not to a different question

Everyone
 
fishypete said:
My memory is just fine...thanks;

http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/default.asp?item=1036034

http://cowboysblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/02/jerry-talking-trade-with-tuna.html

Then the news on Pace;

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Al's Free Agency Scoop[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...The Miami Dolphins are the frontrunners to land Cardinals DE/OLB Calvin Pace. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Dolphins view Pace as a rush-end OLB and a great fit for their 3-4 scheme and have a visit scheduled with him this morning. The Dolphins will also be entertaining Raiders QB Josh McCown sometime later today. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then;[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Miami Dolphins[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] have signed former Broncos Wr David Kircus.[/FONT]

Then;​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Torbor to Fins[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Miami Dolphins have signed New York Giants LB Reggie Torbor[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]​



Then;​


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Trade[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...The Dolphins and Cowboys have completed a trade with the Cowboys sending NT Jason Ferguson to the Dolphins for the Fins 6th round pick in the 2009 Draft and a switch of picks in the 2008 Draft.[/FONT]​




[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then;[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Miami Dolphins[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] have signed former Jets and Cowboys TE Sean Ryan...Parcells drafted Ryan in Dallas.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]​




[/FONT]

[/FONT]Then;

BREAKING NEWS[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...The Miami Dolphins have signed Titans DT Randy Starks to a multi-year contract[/FONT]

Then;

McCown to Dolphins[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...The Miami Dolphins have signed Raiders quarterback Josh McCown.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then;[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Miami Dolphins[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...The Miami Dolphins re-signed exclusive rights free agent OG Ike Ndukwe.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then;[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Miami Dolphins[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...The Miami Dolphins have agreed to a one-year deal with Bengals WR Tab Perry. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]​


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then;[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Miami Dolphins[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...The Miami Dolphins have agreed to terms with Dallas Cowboys S Keith Davis.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]​


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Finally...the news;[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3275059[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]After visiting with the Dolphins....first....may I remind you, he turned down what the Dolphins offered and chose to go to the Jets...with that figure in hand..as a starting point.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He played with the Dolphins...and Parcells played with him...and the Jets.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Not one main player other than Pace has been lost to another team...that the Dolphins made an offer to...or they went after.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]How many players were brought in...and or signed before Pace? If Pace was the one player that the Dolphins really wanted...would they let him walk away? Or did they let him walk away.[/FONT]

Added note;

Pace reached an agreement with the New York Jets on a six-year, $42 million contract on Monday. The deal, negotiated by agent Pat Dye Jr. and his associates at Atlanta-based ProFiles Sports Management, includes a signing bonus of $20 million and $22 million in total guarantees.
The contract, which makes Pace one of the highest paid linebackers in NFL history, will pay out $26 million in its first three years.
"We think he can help in our defense," Jets general manager Mike Tannenbaum said. "We saw him play in the 3-4 defense last year and we're excited to get him."

Who in their right mind is going to pay a linebacker that kind of money...especially a linebacker who only had one good season...and with that...how much more are you willing to pay C. Long...under the same situation...are you willing to pay him 60 mil...as a unproven Linebacker?

No matter what you may believe about C. Long...he's unproven...until he can show he can play the position and not only play the position...but be one of the greats...because you don't pay 60 mil for just another linebacker.


Isn't just like the Jets...." we think he can help our defense"...WOW.





[/FONT]



[/FONT]

[/FONT]
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You really have no idea what you are talking about. The Dolphins brought Pace to Miami right away, immediately, right as they brought in the other free agents. They offered him a mountain of money, and instead of accepting it like the other free agents did, he decided that he was going to go through with his visit to the Jets over the weekend because he promised himself he would do that. He made press statements to the effect of being really positive about the Miami situation and believing he'll probably sign there. He took his visit with the Jets and still took more time to decide. In the end when asked why the Jets he said it was because Miami wanted him to be a big leader in the rebuilding of the defense. The Jets just wanted him to be another guy.

Their mountainous money offer to Pace absolutely proves that Miami view the position as one where a large, significant investment is desirable. You can talk until you're blue in the face, argue this or that, and I'll still be 100 percent correct on this issue. So go ahead. Keep spouting off stuff that isn't true.
 
CK , BOOM . . . incredible .... you guys should put out an annual
if USA TODAY and the SPORTING NEWS can find success
i know you guys could do it .. i'd buy it first chance
$10 a shot x 20,000 ... what's that ... 200 grand
your only overhead
paper

anyway , CK , earlier you stated that OTAH
"held Long to where he had very little impact on the game"

i understand it's just one game , but it appears he had plenty others just
like it seeing that he posted just 7 sacks his first three years

you mentioned the 70 QBP , but what was it about his play
that caused his numbers to jump like that his last season
and why do you believe he's not a 1 year wonder?

here's my problem . . he appears to be a 3-4 tweener
not big enough to play END , not light enuff to play OLB

of all the projected LB starters last season , only TWO guys
were as big as chris ,, adalius thomas and bertrand berry

CL 6'3 272
AT 6'2 270
BB 6'3 275

greg ellis doesn't count , he's 6'6 270
neither does willie mcginest .. 6'5 270

'they' say parcells is looking for his next lawrence taylor

wouldn't that be gholston?

lastly , with the likes of gholston , long , harvey joining the merriman's
ware's etc ,,, you'd prefer a 2ndR pick to go against these guys?

.

i'm rushing to practice , hope this makes sense

thanks in advance
 
rafael said:
FA started on 2/28. By 2/29 there were reports that we had deal in place with Pace offering $20 million in guaranteed money after he flew in for a visit.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/football/nfl/02/29/dolphins.pace/

So your theory is that Pace wasn't a priority and that we didn't contact him on the first day of FA, that he was just an after-thought? Do you think we were just kidding about the $20 million? You believe we offered him more money than we offered any other player b/c we didn't think we needed him or his position?

And you still don't understand that BP doesn't seem to agree with your position valuations. He drafts defense (particularly front 7)early. He doesn't draft OL early.
Click to expand...

Again...I didn't say that the Dolphins didn't look at him...but if they really wanted him...he'd be a Dolphin. The very first player they signed was Smiley...appx 2 minutes after free agency started. Look at what the Dolphins offered Pace...and what he signed for...he signed for appx 2 mil more over a six year period...the Dolphins had the extra cap money...and that extra was really only appx 350,000 more a season...so think what you like...but in my eye's...Parcells and Pace played each other and the loser were the Jets.
 
BlueFin said:
I have to agree with CK on this Pete, thats how I saw it happen as well.
Click to expand...

So Pace was the number one guy...and Parcells let him walk away for only appx $350,000 a year more. First you have to ask yourself this...if the Dolphins were to sign Pace...who was he going to replace? Until the Dolphins trade either Taylor or Porter....they had no where to start him....would they sign Pace for all that money and sit him?
If money was the reason they didn't sign Pace...how much more cap money would the Dolphins have if they traded or cut either Taylor or Porter...surely more than enough to make up that difference...and then some.

The Dolphins signed Smiley to a 25 mil contract...they signed Torbor on Feb 29th....yet the guy they REALLY wanted...they let walk away. Right.

Believe what you want...but I believe the Dolphins got the players they really wanted...and let the other guy walk away to the Jets.
 
craps said:
CK , BOOM . . . incredible .... you guys should put out an annual
if USA TODAY and the SPORTING NEWS can find success
i know you guys could do it .. i'd buy it first chance
$10 a shot x 20,000 ... what's that ... 200 grand
your only overhead
paper

anyway , CK , earlier you stated that OTAH
"held Long to where he had very little impact on the game"

i understand it's just one game , but it appears he had plenty others just
like it seeing that he posted just 7 sacks his first three years

you mentioned the 70 QBP , but what was it about his play
that caused his numbers to jump like that his last season
and why do you believe he's not a 1 year wonder?

here's my problem . . he appears to be a 3-4 tweener
not big enough to play END , not light enuff to play OLB

of all the projected LB starters last season , only TWO guys
were as big as chris ,, adalius thomas and bertrand berry

CL 6'3 272
AT 6'2 270
BB 6'3 275

greg ellis doesn't count , he's 6'6 270
neither does willie mcginest .. 6'5 270

'they' say parcells is looking for his next lawrence taylor

wouldn't that be gholston?

lastly , with the likes of gholston , long , harvey joining the merriman's
ware's etc ,,, you'd prefer a 2ndR pick to go against these guys?

.

i'm rushing to practice , hope this makes sense

thanks in advance
Click to expand...

Find me 20,000 people that would be willing to spend $10 on a book from us and then we'll talk. ;)

Anyway, about Chris Long. I do have some theories as to why he had a big jump up in sack production in 2007 as opposed to 2005 and 2006.

First off, a senior became a better player as a senior than he was as a junior or sophomore. Color me unsurprised!

Second, you have to understand...Virginia is not Virginia Tech. Their defense is not rife with the kinds of athletes you see on the Hokies. Virginia has had one player drafted from the defense in either 2006 or 2007. That player was a rather insignificant defensive back named Marcus Hamilton, who was drafted by the Buccaneers about 10 spaces shy of the infamous "Mr. Irrelevant" spot. What I'm trying to say is, from 2005 to 2006, Chris Long was the ONLY significant player on that defense.

Did that change in 2007? Well, a little bit, yes. Clint Sintim came along at outside linebacker, a junior in 2007 and much better than he was a sophomore in 2006. John Copper also came along at linebacker, and was a lot better in 2007 than in 2006. It isn't so much that teams no longer were afforded the ability to focus on Chris Long. They still did. Probably more so than ever. But, when it comes to the difference between beating an offensive lineman and getting pressure, versus beating a guy, getting pressure and getting the sack...the difference OFTEN lies in the job your other teammates are doing in coverage, in containment, and even against the run. There are synergies to be observed there. If your nose tackle is holding his ground in the middle, the quarterback has a tougher time stepping up in the pocket to avoid the sack. If you're getting pressure from the other side, the quarterback can't evade you and run off for positive yardage. If your linebackers and defensive backs are covering, the QB holds the ball just a little bit longer or gets confused. If your offensive line, now led by stalwart high picks like Branden Albert and Eugene Monroe, are able to run the ball more effectively, you see more passing situations from the opposing offense.

The third factor, aside from his getting better and the team also getting better, is you really have to account for the fact that Al Groh went ahead and used Chris Long differently in 2007 than I believe he used him in 2006 and 2005. In those years, I believe he was a straight up 3-4 DE...and you should well know, even a Richard Seymour, known as probably the best 3-4 DE in the game (when healthy) does not get sacks. That's not a position you expect to get double digit sacks from. You get pressure, and you make plays, and it's an important position to a good defense, but Seymour has averaged no more than 5.2 sacks per 16 game season since entering the league. In 2007, what I saw was that Groh was afforded the ability to use Long more creatively. He played as a 3-4 DE out of the base defense, but he also was played from an up position on a regular basis. He dropped into coverage, he rushed from his feet, he rushed from a four-point stance coming from the far edge, and he rushed from a three-point stance face-up over tackle. There were stunts, there were twists, etc.

It would be one thing if the kid wasn't really on radar prior to 2007. But, Chris Long was not the Patrick Ewing Jr. of college football. In 2006 he was voted first team all-state, second team all-ACC. Prior to 2007, he was voted to several preseason All-American lists. NFL Draft Scout openly referred to him as a first round draft pick back on August 8, 2007. NFL Draft Scout had him in their top 5 or so for as long as I can remember, and had him in their top 2 well before the season was over.

As for weights, Chris Long measured 272 at the Combine, however he said openly that he weighed less during the season and indeed at his Pro Day he showed up at 267 pounds. But I'm curious, why would Willie McGinest and Greg Ellis not count, anyway? Not convenient enough? ;)

You also forgot Calvin Pace, the guy we offered a mountain of money to right here in Miami. He played OLB for the Cardinals at 270 pounds.

If you think Gholston is the next Lawrence Taylor, then you should go ahead and take him. I for one do not think he is anything of the sort. He is a body builder with good straight line explosion and strength, but he is very stiff moving around laterally and does not change directions well, does not play with a passion for tracking down the ball carrier, is (thus far) extremely inconsistent on a game to game basis, and might be too muscle-bound to really change much of that. This is a guy that began his adulthood as a body builder and grew into being both a body builder and a football player, and while obviously to a certain degree it helps to be extremely good in the gym to play football...when you get into the extremes as Gholston does, I question whether the two aims continue to be complementary.

As for a second round pick going up against the Merrimans, Wares, etc...I happen to have a good amount of faith in Vernon Carey. He only gave up 3.5 sacks this year and the offensive line was on its way to a full rebirth before we lost Trent Green, Chris Chambers and Ronnie Brown in successive weeks. I believe he will remind Tony Sparano, Bill Parcells and Jeff Ireland of Flozell Adams in a lot of ways. Would you like to get a franchise left tackle and move Carey back to right tackle? Of course. But on a team that is so full of holes it looks like swiss cheese, with a full rebuilding project, you can't afford not to go with the best player available. I think the staff really like a guy like John Greco, and would be all too willing to grab him in the latter portion of the second round, or first pick in the third round, rather than reach for Jake Long at #1 when there are at least two players (Chris Long and Glenn Dorsey) that are better than him.
 
hey CK just wanted your opinion on Chris Ellis and where he fits in among the other DE/OLB. If we happened to take Jake Long #1 could Ellis be our answer in the third.
 
This is an excellent thread. Very informative. This is a tough choice at #1. They all have some question mark about them.

This week I'm sticking with Jake Long at #1. Discounting all the rumors and fitting front 7 schemes, Dorsey has moved into the 2 spot. And I'm a coin flip between Gholston/C. Long.
 
Also, what do you think of drafting C. Long, playing him at DE on a 3-4 defence and wait until he has at least 3 full years of NFL experience before using him part time as an outside linebacker?
 
fishypete said:
Again...I didn't say that the Dolphins didn't look at him...but if they really wanted him...he'd be a Dolphin. The very first player they signed was Smiley...appx 2 minutes after free agency started. Look at what the Dolphins offered Pace...and what he signed for...he signed for appx 2 mil more over a six year period...the Dolphins had the extra cap money...and that extra was really only appx 350,000 more a season...so think what you like...but in my eye's...Parcells and Pace played each other and the loser were the Jets.
Click to expand...

Either they had a ceiling and they stuck to it or Pace made it clear that he preferred NY to Miami and throwing more money at him would have made no difference. It's ridiculous to say that a guy we contacted on the first day of FA and offered a way above market contract to was not a guy we wanted. Clearly at 1-15 we are so attractive a team that there is no way somebody would have preferred to go elsewhere. :rolleyes2:
 
CK, with how things seem to be coming together as the draft approaches do you think it's possible we don't select an offensive line prospect till day 2? Personally, I agree with Chris Long as our first round choice. He carries more ability than the stats show and he'll be in just about every play till the whistle blows. Leadership wise, I couldn't agree more about the importance. I believe in Chris over Jake due to the fact that I also agree that Vernon Carey is a substantial above average starter at LT and the positions that appear still empty(LG, RT) can be found in early in day 2 (perhaps even Mormino could become serviceable). In the second round I see us selecting a piece of the secondary and a quarterback(unless Brendan Albert is still available). I'm leaning more towards a quarterback with 2A. I just feel as though we need to explore as many options as possible. Also, with the value of quarterbacks possibly available at this spot we could have ourselves a legitimate competition come preseason that appears promising. I'd also like to bring up the name Abraham Wright. Any thoughts on his stance with the new coaching staff. I know he's coming off surgery, but with the way he was hyped last preseason is there any chance he could become an integral part of this defense. I'm probably reaching quite a bit for a comparison, but his style of play reminds me of Gholston. Obviously without the freak combine stats, but do we already have a hidden Gholston type within the underbelly of our depth charts? Just a thought to add to the discussion.
 
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