Slimm's 2017 Quarterbacks (Seniors)

Discussion in 'NFL Draft Forum' started by TedSlimmJr, May 18, 2016.

  1. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    1. Davis Webb / California / 6'5", 229 (#40 overall)

    2. Chad Kelly / Ole Miss / 6'2", 224
    ( #95 overall)
    [​IMG]

    3. Nate Peterman / Pittsburgh / 6'2", 226 (#165 overall)

    4. Cooper Rush / C. Michigan / 6'3", 228 (UDFA)

    5. Wes Lunt / Illinois / 6'4", 217 (UDFA)

    6. Gunner Kiel / Cincinnati / 6'3", 218 (UDFA)

    7. Seth Russell / Baylor / 6'3", 213 (UDFA)

    8. Sefo Liufau / Colorado / 6'3", 232 (UDFA)

    9. Nick Mullens / Southern Miss / 6'1", 207 (UDFA)

    10. Skyler Howard / W. Virginia / 5'11", 207 (UDFA)














    The following are athletes that could make the transition to a different position. In some cases, already have experience playing another position.



    1. Josh Dobbs / Tennessee / 6'3", 216 (#186 overall)

    2. Taysom Hill / BYU / 6'2", 221 (#242 overall)

    [​IMG]


    3. Greg Ward Jr. / Houston / 5'10", 186 (UDFA)

    4. Tommy Armstrong / Nebraska / 6'1", 220 (UDFA)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2017
  2. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    I remain interested in Taysom Hill and I'm rooting for him to stay healthy and have a good run. Right now he has to go in that dual threat category and I understand that but I think there's a strong possibility that he's taken strides in his passing that aren't recognized because we've hardly seen him in the last two years.

    The guy's leadership is through the roof. He's a better passer than Tim Tebow was (remains to be seen if he's good enough that way for the NFL), and every bit the runner and leader that Tebow was. And in a class of seniors that is kind of poor, that's something I would buy.

    Chad Kelly is the legitimate #1 senior. In 2015 he wasn't anything that I would be anxious to bet on but he was in a place from which he could grow into something I'd be fine betting on. He's on the right path.
     
  3. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    Should we be reading anything into the absence of Josh Dobbs and C.J. Beathard?
     
  4. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    Dobbs is #3 under athletes. He came to Tennessee as a WR and I think that may be his best position at the next level.

    As many times as I've tried to see Beathard as an NFL prospect, I simply haven't been able to. He's not for me.
     
  5. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    Didn't see Dobbs there. I see it now.

    That's a tremendous call on Cooper Rush. A lot of people are overlooking him. If you take into account potentially fatal flaws you could even make the case that Rush is better than the two you have listed above him. What I mean by that is when you get right down to it most of these guys aren't going to make it, including Chad Kelly and Gunner Kiel, and if you feel pretty good about isolating the reason you don't think Kelly or Kiel will make it, you could make a case for Rush being your top senior and it won't be a ridiculous call, IMO. If we start making the case for Cooper Rush to be listed ahead of a Deshaun Watson, OK then we're being a bit ridiculous. But Rush is among the quarterbacks that has the most clearly definable NFL future, in a sea of guys that don't have very clearly definable NFL futures.
     
  6. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    Curious whether there are QB Coaches that think they can fix Brady Gustafson's tendency toward making wildly inaccurate throws. I mean there are pretty obvious footwork issues going on with most of those errant throws, but I'm not a QB Coach so I don't know if he can fix them.
     
  7. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    As for C.J. Beathard, he clearly holds onto the ball too long and isn't seeing and pulling the trigger in a timely manner. But this was basically his first year starting and he ran the system pretty well while simultaneously showing himself to be able to make plays outside of the system with his legs and arm. I'm not anxious to draft anyone in this class but I think that should still get you above a Zach Terrell, for example.
     
  8. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    Davis Webb is turning out to be a good shout here as he has been extremely impressive. I'd say he's the top senior. He made a good choice to go to Cal under a Kingsbury protege. It would have been nice to see him working with some more pro concepts, but the more important part for him was to go out against good competition, show off his incredible arm talent, and succeed excessively. He is doing that. Working under a Kingsbury guy also emphasizes something else about him which is going to play well in NFL circles, which is that he took his benching like a champ and there are no hard feelings between he and Kingsbury. Yes, Kingsbury benched him in favor of the more mobile Patrick Mahomes (who has a big arm in his own right). But Webb didn't go all Baker Mayfield, transferring out immediately and trashing everyone involved to everyone who will listen (or having his daddy do it). He stuck at Texas Tech, earned the nickname "Coach Webb" because of how much he helped Mahomes and the rest of the team, and then transferred as a college graduate so that he could show the scouts another year of film.

    IF the Dolphins go for a quarterback in 2017 then I think Davis Webb would be the early favorite. Gase and Kingsbury have a relationship. Kingsbury flew all the way from Texas to come hang out at Dolphins training camp for a day. Kliff has referred to Davis Webb as a top 5 overall talent recently. I think Kliff may be candid with Gase about the decision to bench Webb in favor of Mahomes and how it has more to do with the unique requirements of his Air Raid attack, that Davis Webb is the one more suited to a pro style attack, etc. I love Patrick Mahomes and this is not a slight on him as a pro prospect, I'm just saying what I think it's possible Kingsbury will tell Gase.
     
  9. xXwarXx

    xXwarXx Banned Hammered

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    I really like how easily he flicks the ball downfield. It looks like he's throwing a nerf football, it's so easy for him. I also like how consistent his placement is on short passes. Always puts the ball where it needs to be so that the receiver can easily catch it and get up field.

    Haven't watched enough to know how good he is at working in the picket though, how do you think he compares to Goff?

     
  10. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    He needs work in terms of pocket movement. His most glaring issue to me is he always likes to move straight back when he's pressured. He'll run straight backwards instead of moving up in the pocket. He can get away with it time and time again because of phenomenal arm strength. And I do mean phenomenal. He'll just keep fading back and throw off his back foot. It's his trademark really.

    This will have to be corrected or he can't reach any level of consistency in the NFL despite his marvelous physical gifts. Which would be a shame.
     
  11. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    Logan Woodside is a guy that I've started to watch a little bit and I could see it both ways on him in terms of what the scouts will see. Many scouts will look at him and dismiss him. Period. He's small-ish, 6'2" and 200 pounds. I wouldn't say he has a deficient arm but he doesn't have a great one either. They'll discount the Toledo offense he runs. I can just imagine the scouts, many of whom I've spoken to, looking at me sideways and saying "You think THAT is an NFL quarterback?"

    But there's more than a little Jimmy Garoppolo in him. The feet, release, accuracy, quick decision making, the way he reads the defender, not to mention the blur-level hurry-up offense they're running...lots of comparison there.

    It's interesting to see who he replaced at Toledo, too. Phillip Ely was the starter in 2014 after transferring from Bama. But he got hurt and Woodside came in and performed really well. Then in 2015 they decided with Ely only having one year eligibility left and Woodside having a redshirt available, they'd go with Ely and let Woodside redshirt. Good long term plan. Ely led them to a 2-loss season last year and I'd be surprised if Woodside does worse than that in 2016 considering they doused Fresno State and nearly upset BYU in a 53-55 shootout. They have to play Akron and Central Michigan and Western Michigan but they can win those games with the offense they have going.

    Woodside is leading the NCAA in passing efficiency thus far. Make no mistake he needs everything to go right for him from here on out in order to be compared to a Jimmy Garoppolo. He probably needs to win out. He needs to finish with the 4700 yards and 50 touchdowns he's currently on pace for. If he gets invited to the Senior Bowl, he needs to turn heads there. I'm just saying that, thus far based on what I've seen, I could kind of see all that happening. Or at least a chance of it happening.

    Hell in a world where Trevor Siemian makes an NFL roster, rises up the depth chart, actually wins the start and then actually performs decently well...why not?
     
  12. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    Yeah, good point about Siemian. I mean you just never know. Woodside looks tiny to me though. He just looks 5'11", 180 to me.

    But you're right about the way he plays the position. I love him as a college quarterback. Just don't see it at the next level for him.
     
  13. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    He does look like he's going to pop like a zit any time there's a defender of any kind of size bearing down on him.

    But you've got to be pretty tough to pop back up after an unblocked (illegal) hit like this, that gets a 6'4" and 245 lbs guy like Sae Tautu ejected from the game:

    https://youtu.be/hoyhaZItWKw?t=6226

    I mean that's a big, NFL sized defender with a full head of steam going unblocked (because their OL does that thing where nobody moves when a defender goes off sides) crowning his helmet on your chin while you make a tough throw that very well could have gone complete for a big gain (receiver couldn't dig the underthrow off the turf).

    And I had a total brain fart and forgot where I was going with the Phillip Ely thing. The reason I said it was interesting is because between Ely and Woodside there's a pretty consistent image of what those coaches are looking for up in Toledo. And I like it.

    Anyway no doubt Woodside is in danger of showing up for an All Star measurement two inches shorter and twenty pounds lighter than the smallest you'd have found acceptable.

    At the very least Woodside serves as an illustration of a point you made earlier in that if Ryan Tannehill had his feet, his awareness and his feel for the game, we wouldn't be having a lot of the conversations we're having.

    I stagger to think of the wherewithal and quick thinking, coordination it takes to make THIS play in THIS situation:
    https://youtu.be/hoyhaZItWKw?t=9003
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2016
  14. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    This play kind of serves as both point and counter-point for the point you're making above:

    https://youtu.be/eYerRd0me2U?t=176

    It's kind of sick that he has the arm to get away with that. But that was a 3rd & 14. I expect a guy to maybe get away with that on 3rd & 4.

    As for the criticism, I hate to draw conclusions here. It could sink him. It could also improve. We don't know. I say his work ethic encourages me, as does his general level of foot activity. Adam Gase seems to believe that he taught Jay Cutler how to move in the pocket, and he's going to try and teach Tannehill the same (good luck). Regardless, Gase seems to think he can teach it.
     
  15. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    Agree, it's the quickness of his feet that makes him unique as a passer. Quick feet is typically the sign of a quick thinker. I certainly believe I'd have better luck working with Davis Webb as opposed to Ryan Tannehill. No question.
     
  16. xXwarXx

    xXwarXx Banned Hammered

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    I think he was just saying that because it sounds better then saying, "nope, you can't teach those insticts, he's either going to learn by himself or he's screwed."

    In an interview I saw with Gase he was asked About Cutlers improvement on 3rd downs from one season to the next, and he said it was because Cutler was pretty agile and was doing a good job of buying time and making plays. The way he said it, sounded like he was giving Cutler all the credit.
     
  17. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    That's Gase's shtick to go to bat for his guys and give them all the credit but I know for a fact that at times publicly with the media and especially behind closed doors either with the media or with other people, he will detail for you EXACTLY how he "fixed" Jay Cutler and 90% of what he'll talk about will be the drills they ran where he got Jay Cutler to be better in the pocket. I have no doubt it was a big part of his presentation when interviewing for the job, and I know for a fact that it was among the things he elaborated on and detailed for a select group of off the record folks behind closed doors shortly after getting the job.

    This is his thing (in his mind). This is something he did. Jay Cutler ultimately was the guy who did the improving, but in Gase's mind he is the guy who got Cutler to improve that facet of his game. And improvement in that facet of his game was in Gase's mind the biggest delta between bad Cutler that everyone hated, and 2015 Cutler that everyone seemed to be alright with.

    I will add that Marino is also heavily involved in the effort to get Tannehill to improve his dance steps off his drop and in the pocket. One of my biggest sources of frustration with Tannehill this year is seeing him completely resist displaying things that I absolutely KNOW he is being coached hard on.
     
  18. xXwarXx

    xXwarXx Banned Hammered

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    Thats interesting, I do remember Cutler looking better in the pocket last year than in the past or even this season. I always figured it was due to him just trying harder, liking Gase, and wanting to prove himself.

    Tannehill hAs never displayed good insticts, so I don't think anything is going to change, if Tannehill magically becomes a quality pocket qb with poise, well know Gase is really for real.

    I feel bad for the teammates around Tannehill, who see how hard everyone is working to make this work and know god damn well Tannehill will fall flat.

     
  19. xXwarXx

    xXwarXx Banned Hammered

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    I'm really liking what Kelly is doing against auburn, oline is getting manhandled and he's making big plays with his legs and delivering dimes.

    He has a quick clock and forces the ball into tight coverage sometimes, and that's really his only glaring weakness IMO. I think that can be coached up.
     
  20. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    He may not have much of an arm but it's fun watching how quickly and accurately Ryan Higgins diagnoses coverage and gets to his trigger. Guy didn't play at all last year because of Jeff Driskel, who was drafted. Higgins having a heck of a year. He's essentially Logan Woodside. I give the edge to Woodside for the way he works the pocket and feels pressure. I give the edge to Higgins on his ability to read through the coverage and get to the throw quickly.

    Guys like that make college football fun. You just don't know if physically they can hack it at the next level.
     
  21. Tannenbombs

    Tannenbombs FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Nate Peterman was invited to St. Pete.. thoughts?
     
  22. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    Peterman has come a long ways in the last 5 years. Maybe the most drastic improvement of any Senior quarterback in this class that I've seen. My most vivid memories of Peterman was how inept and out of place he looked early in his career at Tennessee playing against Florida and SEC competition. He clearly couldn't hack it. Wasn't ready. It was a good move on his part to go the JUCO route and end up at Pittsburgh for his final 2 years.

    He's really improved. Has just enough size and just enough physical tools to perhaps be worth developing further at the next level. I think he could probably be as high as my #3 Senior quarterback here behind Kelly and Webb. Simply due to how drastic the dropoff is here among the Seniors behind those two. Mid-Late rounder. I like his upside better than a lot of other Senior quarterbacks out there like C.J. Beathard, etc. Who I never even felt like I would spend a draft pick on, thus never put him on my list.

    Now, there was another kid at Tennessee during that time that also transferred out. He suffered an injury as a freshman for Tennessee and ended up redshirting. Transferred to Memphis and took over for Paxton Lynch. Kid named Riley Ferguson. We recruited him a little bit at Bama when he was coming out of high school. Much like Peterman, has decent size and nice physical tools. Led Memphis to 8 wins this year and will be back next year for his Senior season. That's a kid to really watch out for next year. Lit Houston up for over 400 yards and 4 TD's in a 48-44 win a few weeks ago.
     
  23. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    Nathan Peterman to me is a lot like Brandon Doughty in that I can't figure out whether to love him as a prospect or really just love his coaches. I think Matt Canada is a hell of a coach for that position and offensive unit as a whole. And there are a lot of pieces on the offense that are worthy of note from Adam Bisnowaty to Dorian Johnson, Scott Orndoff, James Conner and a guy that intrigues me a lot, Jester Weah.
     
  24. Tannenbombs

    Tannenbombs FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Father Slimm,

    I've only watched one game so far against San Diego State. But I've read into his background and love his grit and mental toughness. It only takes one viewing to see his arm talent warrants a top 75 pick by itself. I'm about to graduate in 5 days so I'm studying for finals, but the first player I write up will be Davis Webb. I'll come back and read your response and post my report..

    My question is, is there ANY reason NOT to grade him in the 1st round? Thanks hope you're well. Happy holidays.
     
  25. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    Not really. He's a strong, strong 1st rounder physically. From elite arm strength to the big, tall, strong, thick frame. With quick feet I might add. Production wise he's a 1st rounder. Production has always been there, even during his Texas Tech days.

    Feel for the game is fabulous and deadly if you try to blitz him. Throws with great touch and trajectory on a variety of different throws.

    Only questions you might have are system and fundamental oriented knocks due to playing his entire career in Air Raid type offenses. I'd like to see him make some adjustments to the way he manages the pocket with pressure in his face. Which you teach him to do. However, I think you overlook that with a prospect this physically gifted. Coach him up on his footwork, drops from center, and using his eyes better and I'd bet you have something after a year or so of polishing him up. He has pro bowl potential as a starter.
     
  26. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    To me Davis Webb is the only senior worth investing in. I'd bring in guys like Cooper Rush or Nathan Peterman, but invest in them? Not really. It looks like DeShone Kizer and DeShaun Watson are both out as underclassmen. They're worth investment. Luke Falk is out and he's worth some investment.

    But with all of those guys I'd have to keep a watchful eye on their progress and another eye on other quarterbacks market. I don't feel like I can just give any one of those guys 3 years of my franchise's time and resources.

    I could do that with Josh Allen. I'd think about it with Patrick Mahomes.
     
  27. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    Peterman got the call up to the Senior Bowl
     
  28. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    And Matt Canada got the call up to LSU.
     
  29. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    Home run hire for LSU. Probably the strongest set of coordinators in the country now reside in Baton Rouge.
     
  30. HogBoss

    HogBoss Active Member

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    Agreed. Love to see that program in 2-3 years.
     
  31. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    I'm looking forward to seeing Zach Terrell in St. Pete. He probably doesn't have the tools to ever start in the NFL, but I like his chances to hang around the NFL for a while.
     
  32. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    He might struggle a little bit, just my opinion. I think Gunner Kiel could be the guy that emerges in West practices. Wes Lunt won't look too bad either.
     
  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    Slimm,

    You got any thoughts on Bart Houston? I have to admit he's sort of come out of nowhere because he was a backup in 2013 and 2014, played one game in 2015, seemed like he lost his starting job to Hornibrook then kind of shared time with one another.

    I don't know why but on a lark I took a look at his 2015 game against Illinois. Now I'm looking at some of his 2016 work.

    I think seeing only 8 TDs and 5 INTs in the last two years, only 188 pass attempts...pretty easy to dismiss this guy. But I'm looking at him and he's got ideal size, spins a good ball, accurate, makes good decisions particularly seeing things and throwing the ball over the middle of the football field, and then his feet are among the quickest and most resolute in the class.

    Some coaches are fed up with the spread and Air Raid and I think a lump of clay like Houston may appeal to them coming from Wisconsin.

    You know it's cliche to invoke the name of Tom Brady but it's a bit uncanny inasmuch as Michigan seemed like they couldn't make up their mind between Brady and Drew Henson, and quite frankly Houston plays a lot like Brady. They work the same areas of the field, make similar throws, even similar stature and mechanics.
     
  34. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    I could definitely see it. His physical limitations probably won't play great in practice, and Kiel won't have the same limitations.
     
  35. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    Exactly. Having been to those practices they really try and focus on a lot of throws to the perimeter and pro style throws. Terrell is IMO more of a dink and dunk guy, and a total conceptual command of an offense guy. When you watch the video of all these guys side by side, it's easy to see kind of which ones the scouts are going to like in this setting and I think for West practice it's going to be Gunner Kiel and Wes Lunt. But both guys are going to be prone to making bad decisions in the game.
     
  36. justdev7

    justdev7 Rookie

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    One guy that I haven;t seen anyone talk about is Dane Evans from Tulsa. He's got the arm, he's can place a deep ball, and he shows really great creativity and feel for the game.

    [video=youtube;N-MC7jCs7Mo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-MC7jCs7Mo[/video]
     
  37. spiketex

    spiketex Kiko, El Bravo 47 - the yappy chihuahua Super Donator Donator

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    I just heard 49ers GM, John Lynch speak glowingly of CJ Beathard. He explained that San Francisco moved up in the 3rd round to draft him because he was the QB that Kyle Shanahan wanted. He also talked about Beathard having elite torque and this was the first time I had heard that as a key parameter in identifying an NFL QB. Slimm didn't even rate Beathard on his list.
    While I was aware of Davis Webb, Nate Peterman and others, CJ Beathard was not a name that got much notice, let alone the urgency to move up in the 3rd round to draft him. Kyle Shanahan coming off his Super Bowl with Atlanta to take up his first head coaching appointment is presumably no dummy. What are the 49ers seeing that others are not? Welcome feedback.
     
  38. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    He's just referrencing the involvement of the hips into the throw when talking about torque. Beathard has to get his hips that involved in order to generate a requisite amount of velocity due to lack of arm strength.

    Kizer is the one quarterback I would describe in this class as having elite torque. He gets his hips involved into the throw moreso than any other quarterback I studied. Even without the torque, he has terrific arm strength.

    The problem for Beathard is that he's going to be required to make a lot of different throws from a variety of different platforms and angles where hip torque can't be a factor. You have to rely on arm strength alone in the NFL on a lot of throws.

    I never could think much of Beathard as a prospect. He was never able to lift Iowa. They lost games they weren't supposed to lose and almost lost some more they weren't supposed to. It was the running game carrying the offense, or nothing at all.

    Lynch and myself simply don't see eye to eye on Beathard. Ultimately, I think he's going to end up disappointed with his choice if he thinks Beathard is capable of being much more than a backup.
     
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