Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by DKphin, Aug 11, 2018 at 10:30 PM.
Dan Marino was a joy to watch play.
It's late, admittedly I didnt watch the video but I would be hard-pressed to name a dozen better players than Dan, let alone 24!!
Greatest pure "passer" in the history of the NFL. I suppose it's debatable, but I'm not sure who you would compare him to. The quick release, and pocket evasiveness was unreal. The velocity, and accuracy was second to none.
Having said that, I don't think he was the best "quarterback". IMO that has to go to Montana, or (I hate to admit it) Brady.
I think not winning a Super Bowl played substantial role in him not being in the top 10...
Thet is true, to some extent, with "casual" fans. A lot of recognition comes with being champion.
The hardcore fan knows that it almost always takes a complete team, or a completely dominant team on one side of the ball to win it all. Those knowledgeable, that saw Dan play (even those that disliked him), realize that as an individual talent, he had few, if any peers. He put balls in windows that most wouldn't even attempt. I don't know, off hand, what his TD/INT ratio was, but I think half his INTs were on the receiver not getting his head around in time.
Aaron Rodgers has surpassed him as greatest pure passer
I loved Marino and if I had to pick one quarterback to start a team, I'd take him, but he's not the best quarterback that ever played. Not winning a Super Bowl is huge when discussing his legacy. Joe Montana imo, is the greatest quarterback of all-time.
Actually that is one of the few QBs that came to mind as I posted. You could make that case, but I will stick with Marino.
Sheer talent you could point to Geoff George, but he was such a cancer, and a-hole, that he is irrelevant.
The game has changed so much that its difficult to compare eras by stats alone. I agree with Montana. Montana/Walsh forever changed the dynamics of the game. The way PI is officiated today has really watered down passing statistics. Montana was a surgeon, and his grasp of offensive football was far beyond his contemporaries.
If Dan played today, with the way DBs aren't allowed any physicality at all, he would have thrown for 6500 yds, and 50 TDs on a regular basis.
Some younger posters who have only seen highlights, don't really get the whole picture of how Marino could shred a defense almost at will. At the time, many had the view that he was too prolific as a scorer, because the d never got to rest during long drives.
He had no running game that the apposing D had to respect. It didn't matter.
Brady, Montana, Unitas, Manning, then I think you get to the next grouping of Marino, Favre, Elway. It is funny how many will consistently discuss how much Brady elevates that team, and there have been years where there is questionable talent on that roster.
Here is the list...
25 - Dan Marino - QB
24 - John Hannah - G
23 - John Elway - QB
22 - Gale Sayers - RB
21 - Tom Brady - QB
20 - Brett Favre - QB
19 - Bronko Nagurski - FB
18 - Ray Lewis - LB
17 - Barry Sanders - RB
16 - Otto Graham - QB
15 - Deacon Jones - DE
14 - Sammy Baugh - QB/DB/P
13 - Joe Greene - DT
12 - Anthony Munoz - LT
11 - Ronnie Lott - S
10 - Dick Butkus - LB
9 - Don Hutson - WR
8 - Peyton Manning - QB
7 - Reggie White - DE
6 - Johnny Unitas - QB
5 - Walter Payton - RB
4 - Joe Montana - QB
3 - Lawrence Taylor - LB
2 - Jim Brown -RB
1 - Jerry Rice - WR
Manning slipped my mind. I guess because of his collapse in the big games (much like Elway, and Kelly).
I don't know if Johnny U would be successful today.
I guess the other poster was right, in that Championships matter a lot.
Favre? Don't buy it at all. He was a stud, and wasn't afraid to sling it, but not even in my top 15. A guy like Kurt Warner was better.
They changed the rules to make QBs better now...it took 20 years for another qb to pass for 5k and he did it when they rarely went over 3k.
He is by far the best qb ever and if he played in these rules he would put up 6k a year
Marino in the 2000’s-2010’s era would of have 60+ TD’s yearly and 6k passing like it was nothing.
Jerry Rice over Jim Brown? No.
Thank you for that DKphin. He was my all-time hero. Dan Marino kept us permanently in awe. Towards the end if you watch those throws when they're talking about how he owned all the passing records when he retired … look at how he throws just barely past the DB's outstretched hand, or the next throw where he waits, glides to the outside edge of the pocket to barely avoid the reaching arm of a DL, and throws an instant-dart to the receiver just inches past the DB as soon as that tiny throwing window opens. And he makes all of them look effortless … routine.
But when you ignore the QB and instead watch only the defenders (DL and DB) and the WR, you realize just how perfect those throws needed to be for those plays to ever have a chance. It's not like today when the windows are huge because DB's can't touch WR's after 5 yards. Those DB's had their hands on the WR's the entire time, and those windows were tiny and closed very quickly. Marino just effortlessly avoided the rush, found the throwing lane, and used a nailgun to insta-deliver the ball into the tiniest of windows. Such a joy to watch.
Come on. At that point in the discussion, you're splitting hairs over two different positions in two different eras. You can't go wrong with either, and they would both be stars today.
Respect the conviction of your opinion though.
I have 1) Brady 2) Manning 3) Montana 4) Marino 5) Elway as greatest qbs ever based on the overall body of work. However, Brady & Montana were system qbs to an extent and I don’t believe they would be hall of famers if they played on any other team. Marino on the other hand, would dominate on any team and in any era. He’s a top ten player of all time. That list is a bit ridiculous.
Dan Marino made every Dolphins game both watchable and winnable. Peyton is the only other QB that I have ever seen in the same class, where you could be down by 14-17 in the 4th but still feel like you were in it.
Dan rewrote the passing records. He had records that stood for decades and that only rule changes allowed to be broken. The guy was an all-time uber stud. But then, I think Barry Sanders was better than Jim Brown or Emmit Smith, so what do I know. If there were games that were worth watching, regardless of if you had skin in the game or not, Dan and Barry were pure entertainment and raw talent.
Dan was definitely the guy you wanted if you needed a score late in the fourth.
I agree, also about Barry. If he hadn't retired young, or had played for an actual NFL franchise, his numbers would be untouchable.
I'm allowed to say that having grown up in Michigan, and experiencing decades of disappointment and incompetence.
There are a bunch of subjectively higher rated player about whom you can raise a credible counter-argument. (ditto a fewflower ranked ones that might in some eyes be rated possibly higher) However the one I take particular issue with is Favre who purposely hung in long enough just to break a few of Marino's records solely by dint of longevity! Fortunately he also broke a negative record to distinguish himself as The All Time King Of Turnovers
Marino on a Monday night in the 80's and 90's was must see tv
I think the entire thing is too difficult to compare different positions and accross eras. That said, Jim Brown was the Babe Ruth of football. He was so dominant that it almost wasn’t fair. He led the league in rushing 8 of 9 years he played and was an 8 time all pro. His yards per carry are still tops all time and at his size and strength no one wanted to tackle him. Jerry Rice was not a more dominant player at his position than Brown was at his, period. Rice was great. Everyone on that list was great. There was Jim Brown and then 99 other great players. I can’t believe anyone ranked ahead of him on any “best” list.
Again, I suggest he was so good it almost wasn’t fair.
This numbering thing is plain stupid.
If I were to list start to assemble any team from any era -I would start w the most important position QB - I would choose Marino in his prime 100 times out of 100.
The rest of the team could be named from there.
No QB is close - it’s OK for people to get mixed up about that - it’s really hard to inderstand how great a QB Marino was.
His talents were sublime.
His competitive spirit was 2nd to none.
His shattered every QB record in existence in an era when the rules were so against him doing so.
The idea that he would be named 25 is stupid and an insult!
But, he never won a Super Bowl and that's why he's #25.
Barry was the 2nd best RB of all time after Jim Brown. Barry was better than Emmit Smith by a wide margin. Smith enjoyed a great OL while Barry and penetration in the backfield on every touch. I remember a nationally televised game between Dallas and Detroit where Sanders went off. Smith had a good game but the difference between the “greatness-Ism” of the two was massive.
Jim Brown was in a whole other league. When you have a guy that no one wants to tackle who delivered far more punishment than he took it’s almost not fair. He was a giant man among little boys. Best football player ever.
Unfortunate how much stock is put into this in sports. I remember Elway having the same monicker until Terrel Davis helped him win at the end. Elway that lost 3 SBs was far better than the old man that didn’t have to do much and won 2. His stat line vs Pack is attrocious - as bad as Peyton was against Carolina. Again, the guy got 2 rings but played horribly in one game (he was so injured it was pathetic) and pretty sub-average against the Bears. Lucky for him he got to go against Rex Grossman. And the real MVP of that game was the kicker as Peyton just couldn’t put the game away in the 2nd half having to settle for a million FGs. The Peyton that lost the SB was NO was the better QB, carrying a poor team to the big game. Point is, we all know it’s a team game and sometimes the greats might be the reason you are in the conversation but it’s never ever enough to steal the world championship. There has never been a SB “stolen” by a QB overcoming the thorough outplaying by the other team as these greats often can do (Marino made a living doing this) in the regular season and even playoffs (see Marino vs ‘85 Browns and ‘90 Chiefs).
I agree that you can’t put too much stock in rings in the NFL. While Marino is the best I’ve ever saw, it’s difficult to put him ahead of Brady, Manning & Montana because they have all the individual accolades as well as team success. Brady and Montana played for dynasties. Manning played for a bad organization for most of his career and carried them to two Super Bowls winning one then another with a loaded Denver team. Unfortunately, Marino never played for a stacked team.
IMO, most people rank players based off team success -- which the completely wrong way to do it. If you're ranking greatest "teams" of all time, sure. But many of the greatest players of all time played on inferior teams.
In the case of Marino, he played on an average to slightly above average (at times) franchise with a HOF coach that was a bit passed his prime yet #13 still managed to elevate them.
IMO, if Marino was swapped with Montana during the 49ers glory days -- he'd also have been part of multiple SB titles and maybe even more than the 4 they got with Joe Cool. Sames goes with the Patriots. Swap Marino for Brady and they still win at an equal or better clip. People forget how defense and special team heavy New England was the first 4-5 years of Brady's career. Marino was elite right off the bat and would have made those early Patriots championship teams far more deadly.
People often underestimate Marino despite it being pretty much impossible to overcome the lack of defense and special teams. And an o-line that is balanced enough to be able to run the ball effectively. Shula and the front office of the time made big mistakes putting together a one-dimensional offensive line and failing to find a RB whose running style could compensate. And the defense/ST's was almost always a joke. Only a couple times during Marino's career were they passable.
It's pretty much impossible to win a SB when your defense surrenders 40+ in a Conference title game and 38 in a SB. Just ask Tom Brady who's team lost last year despite putting 33 on the scoreboard.
The SB against the Niners was ridiculous - roger Craig, Wendell Tyler and Montana gashed us w the short passes to the flats because our LBs were just too slow to get out there and cover. When they would cheat and run to the spot, Montana would pull it down and run up the middle for 5-7 yards. Did it a bunch. Just couldn’t get them off of the field.
I 100% agree with putting Marino on the NE/SF they would’ve definitely had even more success. Marino WAS the system. In fact, the only player I would put close to Marino as far as best qb talent wise is Rodgers. You make good points
I feel u but no, Marino is still the best ever. Then without a doubt followed by Joe, Rodgers, Elway & Brady. Give Marino 4 chances at a Super Bowl..... **** look at Elway & Jim Kelly... Marino is the best I've ever seen is all I can say. The GOAT
When I watch Rogers, I get the same feelings I had when watching Marino.
I don't buy the whole 'Marino never had any good teams to play on' argument. I watch a ton of old games on Youtube and what I notice is how good some of our teams were, especially compared to the junk we have today.
Let's face it, the 49ers dominated the 80's with some of the best teams ever seen, the Bills dominated the early half of the 90's with fantastic teams, and then Dallas came along. Marino played on some really good teams, but unfortunately others were better.
I would certainly have him higher up on the list, but as time goes by, quarterbacks are getting better, in part due to the rules, but also because the position & plays evolve.
I think Drew Brees should get a mention too, heck of a player and so consistent!
I certainly couldn't point to 24 better players than Marino. The quarterbacks ranked ahead of him would be sitting on the bench watching if they played on the same team as Marino.
Although Favre is one of my all time favorites. One of the toughest to ever play the game....regardless of position.
Dan Marino is a top 10 all time player in my opinion. None of these quarterbacks nowdays are playing the same game he played, and they're not doing what he did.
You are right about the dynasties of the ‘80s and ‘90s including the Skins. The NFC won every SN from ‘84-‘96 w more physical, power football. But, the Miami teams were not that good. The defense was always bad - the constant? Longest tenured D coordinarle during his time even though his D almost always was bottom of the league. Miami has a few very good teams after ‘84 but not a SB worthy one. Even w Dan.
At the end of the clip Alex Rodriguez says he hasn't watched another Dolphin game since Marino retired...
Fair weather *******!
The ‘85 team was Super Bowl worthy; they just had an awful game at the worst time (not that they were a lock to win the SB had they gotten there, but they certainly were good enough to get there). The early ‘90s teams— specifically ‘90, 92, and ‘94— were good enough to win the conference, but they came up short in the playoffs and never had the answer for Buffalo in the post-season.
I feel you though the ‘85 team’s defense wasn’t good enough IMO. They got trampled by NEs run game in the AFC title game. The 90’s teams were good but not as good as the Bills who were a dynasty and loaded w great players up and down. Miami was 2nd best to them - but not good enough to beat them on a consistent basis. Ironically, the ‘93 season may have been the exception. We had beaten them pretty bad in their stadium, were 3-1 or 4-1 when Dan ruptured the Achilles and I feel we may have finally overtaken them for the conference but it just wasn’t meant to be.
Agreed, 93 was the year it was meant to happen. We've had some rotten luck over the last 30 years
Eh, I don’t think there was anything special about ‘93. In ‘92 we whipped Buffalo up there early in the season. Then they won both subsequent games in Miami, including the AFC championship. So I don’t put much stock in an early season win at Buffalo as indicative that the Dolphins had found a way to vanquish the Bills. That ‘93 Bills team was still good enough to win the conference
The real shame is the fact that the team lost in the divisional round of the ‘94 playoffs since they wouldn’t have had to deal with Buffalo at all en route to the Super Bowl.