3-4 defenses

[I am Bane]

why do you guys think the 3-4 defense is becoming the main years for teams across the NFL, in which coaches are looking for 3-4 schemers for defensive coordinators more now???

 

[TonySporanoTuna]

why do you guys think the 3-4 defense is becoming the main years for teams across the NFL, in which coaches are looking for 3-4 schemers for defensive coordinators more now???

It's been proven to work time and time again. Six of the Super Bowl winners from 2001 till now have been 3-4 defenses.

I think the trend will continue because it's very well suited for the NFL game.

 

[Digital]

It's a copycat league. The success enjoyed by teams like Baltimore and Pittsburgh and the fact that those teams are riding their defenses so far make it FOTM.

Each defense has it's strengths and weaknesses. The more teams veer towards speed, quickness and the passing game, the more dominant OLB's make a difference. The OLB is the cornerstone of the 34 defense and very often the best pass rushers in the NFL are 34 OLB's because that defense places such a high premium on them. Without exceptional OLB's, the 34 fails. Everything is funnelled towards them being the playmakers.

Right now we're in a new age of finesse passing. For example, LT's are valued almost exclusively for their pass protection these days it seems. Teams are using the Denver model of quick cut blockers for running games to facilitate their pass blocking focus. So, it makes sense that 34 teams are successful, and that teams blowing up their own systems and looking to reinvent themselves would select the 34 as their system.

But inevitably, as defenses gear up to stop the finesse pass blocking offenses, the teams that go counter-trend will become more effective. That is what the Dolphins are doing with our offense. We're building a smashmouth offense, and when we get all the pieces in place, we will take those small speedy pass rushers and dominate them in the running game.

That's the heart of the Parcells system. He counters the finesse offenses with his 34 defense, then punishes those same types of defenses with ball-control physical grinding, smashmouth running. He wears out the smaller defenders with the constant physicality and by the 4th quarter they're jello and unable to stop the juggernaut offense. His offense also complements his defense because by holding time of possession, his defense is always fresh and able to dominate the opposing offense. It's perfect symmetry.

The reason it's not copied by more teams is that the most effective offenses today are exactly those finesse passing offenses from the Don Coryell/Ernie Zampiese "Aerial Circus" of the 70's and 80's modified slightly by leading offensive minds like Norv Turner and Cam Cameron (yes that Cam Cameron). Because their offenses have been so successful, many teams are imitating that scheme of offense. That's why there seems to be such a lack of power running teams these days ... which is the perfect time to BE a power running team like the Dolphins.

We're building a style of offense that will really allow us to become a dominant running team and a good defensive team. That's a good start. Unfortunately, about 9 times out of 10 these teams fail because they employ a game manager as a QB, instead of a playmaker as a QB. By attempting to protect the defense, they completely lose the plot and get shut down in the playoffs.

That's the difference between Parcells and Bellicheck. Parcells is adamant about having a game manager, and Parcells almost always loses in the first round of the playoffs, regardless of how good his team is supposed to be.

Bellicheck lets his offense try to score points, and he uses his defense to keep the score low rather than try to dominate the game. Bellicheck wins Super Bowls, but Parcells hasn't won much in the postseason without Bellicheck.

Back on point, the 34 is good at stopping these passing offenses we see a lot of these days. I expect the trend towards the 34 to continue, because there aren't many power running teams making a strong statement offensively. It's a copycat league.

 

[SRM]

Simple .. look at the top defenses in the league, the top two (Steelers, Ravens) run the 3-4. Next year we'll be part of that discussion.



... :D

 

[ZachThomas76]

It's a copycat league. The success enjoyed by teams like Baltimore and Pittsburgh and the fact that those teams are riding their defenses so far make it FOTM.

Each defense has it's strengths and weaknesses. The more teams veer towards speed, quickness and the passing game, the more dominant OLB's make a difference. The OLB is the cornerstone of the 34 defense and very often the best pass rushers in the NFL are 34 OLB's because that defense places such a high premium on them. Without exceptional OLB's, the 34 fails. Everything is funnelled towards them being the playmakers.

Right now we're in a new age of finesse passing. For example, LT's are valued almost exclusively for their pass protection these days it seems. Teams are using the Denver model of quick cut blockers for running games to facilitate their pass blocking focus. So, it makes sense that 34 teams are successful, and that teams blowing up their own systems and looking to reinvent themselves would select the 34 as their system.

But inevitably, as defenses gear up to stop the finesse pass blocking offenses, the teams that go counter-trend will become more effective. That is what the Dolphins are doing with our offense. We're building a smashmouth offense, and when we get all the pieces in place, we will take those small speedy pass rushers and dominate them in the running game.

That's the heart of the Parcells system. He counters the finesse offenses with his 34 defense, then punishes those same types of defenses with ball-control physical grinding, smashmouth running. He wears out the smaller defenders with the constant physicality and by the 4th quarter they're jello and unable to stop the juggernaut offense. His offense also complements his defense because by holding time of possession, his defense is always fresh and able to dominate the opposing offense. It's perfect symmetry.

The reason it's not copied by more teams is that the most effective offenses today are exactly those finesse passing offenses from the Don Coryell/Ernie Zampiese "Aerial Circus" of the 70's and 80's modified slightly by leading offensive minds like Norv Turner and Cam Cameron (yes that Cam Cameron). Because their offenses have been so successful, many teams are imitating that scheme of offense. That's why there seems to be such a lack of power running teams these days ... which is the perfect time to BE a power running team like the Dolphins.

We're building a style of offense that will really allow us to become a dominant running team and a good defensive team. That's a good start. Unfortunately, about 9 times out of 10 these teams fail because they employ a game manager as a QB, instead of a playmaker as a QB. By attempting to protect the defense, they completely lose the plot and get shut down in the playoffs.

That's the difference between Parcells and Bellicheck. Parcells is adamant about having a game manager, and Parcells almost always loses in the first round of the playoffs, regardless of how good his team is supposed to be.

Bellicheck lets his offense try to score points, and he uses his defense to keep the score low rather than try to dominate the game. Bellicheck wins Super Bowls, but Parcells hasn't won much in the postseason without Bellicheck.

Back on point, the 34 is good at stopping these passing offenses we see a lot of these days. I expect the trend towards the 34 to continue, because there aren't many power running teams making a strong statement offensively. It's a copycat league.

Um, Pitt and Baltimore are impossible to run on, no matter what type of run game you have. I have to disagree with you there. If you have a stud NT and 2 good 3-4 ends, its hard to run on you.

 

[I am Bane]

big NT that can hold space in the middle, and lock up 2 linemen are so important against the running game....

then you also can put together so many different blitzes, stunts, and twists, etc... open up different types of secondary sets.... much fun to run and confusing to the offense!!!

definitely NFL is a copycat league. look at other teams try to run the Wildcat soooooo poorly this year... lol KC, and SF

 

[parcellsguy]

When Parcells was in Dallas, he switched Cowboys defense from a 4-3 to 3-4. One of the reasons given was, in a 4-3 defense, it's hard to find good defensive ends. While in 3-4 there are plenty of undersize 4-3 defensive ends coming out of college, and can be easily convert to 3-4 LBers, rushing the QB standing up.

One of the undersize defense ends he drafted and converted to LBer in Dallas was DeMarcus Ware. The Jets was tried to do the same with Vernon Gholston last year.

3-4 is also builded to stop the run better than 4-3.

 

[I am Bane]

a lot of truth in these words!!!

When Parcells was in Dallas, he switched Cowboys defense from a 4-3 to 3-4. One of the reasons given was, in a 4-3 defense, it's hard to find good defensive ends. While in 3-4 there are plenty of undersize 4-3 defensive ends coming out of college, and can be easily convert to 3-4 LBers, rushing the QB standing up.

One of the undersize defense ends he drafted and converted to LBer in Dallas was DeMarcus Ware. The Jets was tried to do the same with Vernon Gholston last year.

3-4 is also builded to stop the run better than 4-3.

 

[silvrwrx]

the key to a 3-4 is a force at the nose tackle. from a 3-4 you can send a ton of different blitz packages due a typical pass rush being 4 players. its already been pointed out on how you take advantage of a players natural talents. also if you look at the good defenses its baltimore and pit and both run a 3-4

 

[4THand10]

Coaches changing teams has alot to do with teams switching to 3-4 defenses.

Just look at recent teams that have switched to the 3-4 or going switch to the 3-4 defense.Its usually the head coach who has run the 3-4 prior to becoming the head coach or the coach has hired a D cordinator who is familar with the 3-4 defense.

Example ex coaches for Billicheat:
Eric Mangini left to coach the Jets and
installed the 3-4,Romeo Crennel ran the 3-4 in Clevland

And Ryan will keep the 3-4 defense with the Jets

And not a copy cat league as some has mentioned, its what the coaches are familar with.

 

[Digital]

Um, Pitt and Baltimore are impossible to run on, no matter what type of run game you have. I have to disagree with you there. If you have a stud NT and 2 good 3-4 ends, its hard to run on you.

You should have stopped your comment with "If you have a stud NT and 2 good 3-4 ends."

That's like saying if you have a stud MLB and 2 good DT's you could stop the run with the 43 ... but having the best players is always preferable and it's hard to get them, lol. Come on man, at least have some consistency in your comparisons. :)

Sure, when you have the best players your scheme looks good, but that's not a function of the scheme, it's a function of the players.

Parcellsguy makes a good point that finding undersized collegiate DE's and converting them to OLB's is easier than finding 43 sized DE's with the speed to rush the passer, but that's a personnel situation, not a scheme situation.

If 75% of the teams in the NFL ran the 34, you wouldn't be able to get a decent NT and those OLB's would be very hard to find. The reason it is easier to staff up a 34 defense right now is because most teams run a 43, and the player criteria for each scheme are different. Go back and re-read my post where I mention being counter-trend. That's one of the advantages I already listed about running the 34 nowadays.

I would have thought that was obvious, but apparently not.

 

[Digital]

Alot of you IMO are acting like Sparano and Ireland are figments of Parcells' imagination or figureheads and Tuna is still buying the groceries and making the stew. It was my understanding that BP is involved in all aspects of the team from watering the turf to balancing the books and so forth.

Yes; He is there to advise Tony and Jeff but it is their call regarding personnel and schemes.

If Parcells exclusively prefers "game managers" then why did he acquire Bledsoe?

I sincerely doubt that Miami goes back to the days of Wanny & Feidler. Most of us would gouge our eyes out and then go wander into rush hour traffic. Further, I don't forsee dusting off Woody Hayes' playback either.

Interestingly, the phins only ran 47% of the time this year... a stat that only Mike Martz could be proud of over the long haul. Yes, the wildcat was a gimmick but it got the best players (RB & RW) on the field @ the same time. Along with Chad, it allowed the team to maximize results out of what was average talent at best.

Its obvious at least to me that Tony S is trying to do what Dallas is doing and what Jacksonville did in the day w/ Coughlin and Brunnell be explosive yet physical but get 24 to 28 points in the first 45 to 48 minutes than go smashmouth and control the clock for the last quarter or so.

The difference between the pats & phins is; if NE has to throw the ball 45 times to win then so be it or if they spread you out and pound the rock thats good also. New England IMO is more prone to be flexible.

The Defensive MO is to kick the oppoenents a$$ around for the full 60.

I'm not acting as though Ireland and Sparano are irrelevant at all, and I realize that comment probably wasn't targeted for me. But, Sparano was chosen in part because his philosophy mirrors Parcells', and Ireland, being an excellent GM, is selecting players to the profile of that philosophy. While they may not always completely agree on the evaluation of individual players, they are all three united in what they want to fill the roles in that philosophy.

When Bledsoe was drafted he was seen by most as a good, big, strong, talented QB who could take a hit, had a quick release to avoid a sack, was responsible with the ball, and willing to take directions. New England needed a QB upgrade and was in position to get someone the scouts had rated far above the other potential selections. Bledsoe was the logical choice. The fact that Parcells had worked with him in New England and knew that he was a good QB possessing those valuable qualities and the fact that Bledsoe was then a seasoned veteran, made bringing 'his guy' to Dallas a very reasonable acquisition. Tony Romo isn't the style of QB that Parcells likes, and Romo was pushed onto Parcells by his assistant coaches, but Bledsoe can do everything Parcells wants, so that's not really an exception to the rule about game managers. It just so happened that Bledsoe was also a playmaker and available ... those 3 things rarely all come together at one time.

The 2 reasons that we didn't run more often this season are: 1) poor OL and 2) lack of a consistent deep passing threat.

Long was a rookie LT, Smiley new to the team, Satele a 2nd year C, and the entire line was learning a new coaching staff's system. It would be a real stretch to expect that line to blossom quickly, because offensive lines require chemistry. Additionally, injuries robbed us of key players such as Smiley, leaving us with an unwanted LG starting (waiver wire?) and a revolving door of unwanted RG's. Now we learn that our C also played a significant portion of the season with a torn labrum. Only late in the season did we add even a semi-decent blocking fullback. It makes sense that our running game wasn't very effective.

Credit David Lee for the innovation of the wildcat formation, and Sparano for hiding it from Bellicheat and for adding new wrinkles to keep it fresh. This not only gave us a lot of production, bit forced opponents to spend an inordinate amount of preparation time on this odd system, meaning they were sometimes less prepared to defend our base package. But, even Ronnie & Ricky have trouble running when the OL can't consistently open holes and they're running into the jaws of 8 men in the box.

Ginn has legitimate deep speed and alongside a QB with a gun arm would have had a truly breakout season IMHO. But as it is, Pennington isn't very good at the deep ball, and the game-manager philosophy didn't want to take the chance of throwing an interception, so Ginn wasn't given many chances to stretch the field and take that 8th man out of the box. Teams simply didn't have to fear our long ball game. Additionally, Pennington played to his strength, the dink and dunk stuff and spreading the wealth by giving a lot of balls to TE's, RB's, and slot WR's. This kept the chains moving--which our defense needed--and caused our offense to use the pass as a method of ball control, and Pennington was excellent at it.

I fully expect us to draft 2 OL this draft. The experience of Long, return from injury of Smiley and Satele, coupled with the addition of more talented G's via the draft should result in an improved running game next season. That'll mean we don't have to rely so heavily on gimmicky stuff like the wildcat to generate offense--not that I'm suggesting we ditch it, just saying we should be more effective in our base running package.

As for New England's offense, they have implemented a vibrant deep passing game with Brady/Cassel paired with Moss and other speedy wideouts. Always having that very potent vertical threat opens up the running lanes. We don't have that, and while we have Pennington, who was a revelation for us, we aren't going to have that luxury.

 

[satz]

In 3-4 you are giving up speed in the LB/DL as you are big and cannot be as fast a guy 50 lb lighter.Even though an offence is playing against a 3-4 is getting to play against alot more bulk in the front 7 .If you do not have a cohesive OL and a Qb who can read defences you are toast.

The NE offence is build to play against 3-4 by exploiting the weakness of the 3-4 . when brady goes into shotgun or with kevin faulk releasing you got Moss and other outside threat getting the attention of CB and Safety leaving wes to be picked up by a S/ILB big mismatch. this means the OLB who is 280 LB avg will be matched up against kevin faulk or a TE who is faster and can run better. 2 mismatches off the bat at snap .the brady passes to wes or kevin faulk till the safety help over moss is forced to be moved in then moss one on one is going to have a game. a reason he wins against steelers and ravens more than any qb. then their are not a lot of good qb`s.

 

[BillParFan]

When Bledsoe was drafted he was seen by most as a good, big, strong, talented QB who could take a hit, had a quick release to avoid a sack, was responsible with the ball, and willing to take directions. New England needed a QB upgrade and was in position to get someone the scouts had rated far above the other potential selections. Bledsoe was the logical choice. The fact that Parcells had worked with him in New England and knew that he was a good QB possessing those valuable qualities and the fact that Bledsoe was then a seasoned veteran, made bringing 'his guy' to Dallas a very reasonable acquisition. Tony Romo isn't the style of QB that Parcells likes, and Romo was pushed onto Parcells by his assistant coaches, but Bledsoe can do everything Parcells wants, so that's not really an exception to the rule about game managers. It just so happened that Bledsoe was also a playmaker and available ... those 3 things rarely all come together at one time.

Parcells fought Jerry Jones to keep Romo and develop him. JJ hand picked and signed to a big contract DHenson.

Of Tony Romo's qualifications: "He couldn’t have made it his first two years; not sure he could have done it last season. This preseason, I told our personnel people and our owner that I was going to give him ample work. He played 10 of 16 quarters in the preseason. I don’t think I played anybody but Bledsoe and Romo all preseason. I made up my mind I wanted to find out about him as best I could."

Bledsoe(CP) was only brought in as a place holder{bus driver) until Romo(Henne} developed.

 

[GoonBoss]

I still get queezy about the 3-4 due to Olividotti and his whipped cream soft 3-4.