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A Call to All Armchair Quarterbacks -- Joey Harrington Question

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Swerve

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Okay, I have absolutely no information to add to this thread, but I'm hoping to glean some insight from some of you FH pros... :wink:

Everyone is saying that it will take Joey Harrington some extra time to make the adjustment between running a West Coast style offense to throwing in a more traditional, downfield passing game.

I understand the differences between the two styles of play. I get it. But, can anyone better explain what's the real learning curve here? How Harrington's "reads" would be considered different here than from when he played Detroit? What does it take to learn a new system?

I'll play devil's advocate and say, if it's all X's and O's, where's the "big adjustment" outside of learning the new playbook? (Which, I will concede is difficult enough already.)

I'd just like to know more about the type of adjustment Harrington is going through in TC -- and not just the "Holy crap! There's loads of talent on this team, and not everyone in the city hates me," kind of adjustment.
 
Swerve said:
Okay, I have absolutely no information to add to this thread, but I'm hoping to glean some insight from some of you FH pros... :wink:

Everyone is saying that it will take Joey Harrington some extra time to make the adjustment between running a West Coast style offense to throwing in a more traditional, downfield passing game.

I understand the differences between the two styles of play. I get it. But, can anyone better explain what's the real learning curve here? How Harrington's "reads" would be considered different here than from when he played Detroit? What does it take to learn a new system?

I'll play devil's advocate and say, if it's all X's and O's, where's the "big adjustment" outside of learning the new playbook? (Which, I will concede is difficult enough already.)

I'd just like to know more about the type of adjustment Harrington is going through in TC -- and not just the "Holy crap! There's loads of talent on this team, and not everyone in the city hates me," kind of adjustment.
Click to expand...


let me take a different approach with this than breaking the x's and o's. He is learning a new playbook in which he needs to learn....lets say 500 pages. For your next history exam learn 500 pages about Albania.

then after learning the 500 pages, memorize everyone's blocking scheme to know how they will handle the defensive alignments to the set your in.

then learn the WR's routes and secondary routes and were they will be. Understand their tendancies and know your check downs pending how that defense will react to each movement of motion. Wr goes in motion...does the or a (mike) lb move with him..dictating single coverage( or man on the receiver)....and how many rushers will come from that throwing lane in 3 seconds.

it is a great adjustment and they can scale it down to make it easy on everyones confidence........really there isn't much time to learn it. it is one hell of an adjustment. not just going from the west coast to another system per se....but just going from one playbook to another....or one team to another with a new system........really tough......very tough.
 
And a good follow-up question would be, why not target some other QBs in the free agent market who play in a system similar to ours? Yes, we were near the end of the line on backups when we traded for Joey so maybe you get what you can get, but other QBs could have been targeted earlier who would fit us better, I'd say.

Then again, maybe too much of our time was being tied up just trying to find our starting QB, let alone figuring out who his backup would be.
 
[quote='Phins & 'Canes]And a good follow-up question would be, why not target some other QBs in the free agent market who play in a system similar to ours? Yes, we were near the end of the line on backups when we traded for Joey so maybe you get what you can get, but other QBs could have been targeted earlier who would fit us better, I'd say.

Then again, maybe too much of our time was being tied up just trying to find our starting QB, let alone figuring out who his backup would be.[/quote]


easier said than done......in todays NFL everything changes. That is why it is important to try to keep it together. Look at peyton........same co-ordinator and system......for years i believe.
 
[quote='Phins & 'Canes]And a good follow-up question would be, why not target some other QBs in the free agent market who play in a system similar to ours? Yes, we were near the end of the line on backups when we traded for Joey so maybe you get what you can get, but other QBs could have been targeted earlier who would fit us better, I'd say...[/quote]
OK I'm game. Let us hope this thread doesn't degenerate like the last Harrington thread with 200 posts today, it got pretty ridiculous.

It was reported on a Lions Forum awhile back, from someone with family connections to Michigan State - that Nick Saban attended a Lions game at Ford Field and made positive comments about Harrington. From 1995 to 99, Saban was the head coach at MSU and has ties there naturally. Of course this is hearsay and I'm not sure of exactly when Saban scouted Joey - but evidently there is some history.

Point being - it's not just because Harrington became available, and he was the only option. There was some scouting, and if you recall when Saban left the NFL Owners Conference to meet with Joey a "deal" was struck, leading to Joey's choice of Miami - and refusal to meet with other teams which had also expressed interest.

I agree learning a new Playbook - and non-WCO System for the first time. However more than a few people around Detroit have said - it appeared Harrington might do better in a spread offense ... that he's more a pocket style QB - Manning, Bledsoe, Marino, etc. Many QB's games are not suited to the WCO type rollouts and throwing on the run like Montana or Favre.

Also talking about adjustments - there's a pretty big one moving to South Florida from the Northwest USA. I did it 20 years ago and will never forget the change - Air so thick you can chew it. West of the Rockies the climate is pretty dry. :1st:
 
GRT8 said:
let me take a different approach with this than breaking the x's and o's. He is learning a new playbook in which he needs to learn....lets say 500 pages. For your next history exam learn 500 pages about Albania.

then after learning the 500 pages, memorize everyone's blocking scheme to know how they will handle the defensive alignments to the set your in.

then learn the WR's routes and secondary routes and were they will be. Understand their tendancies and know your check downs pending how that defense will react to each movement of motion. Wr goes in motion...does the or a (mike) lb move with him..dictating single coverage( or man on the receiver)....and how many rushers will come from that throwing lane in 3 seconds.

it is a great adjustment and they can scale it down to make it easy on everyones confidence........really there isn't much time to learn it. it is one hell of an adjustment. not just going from the west coast to another system per se....but just going from one playbook to another....or one team to another with a new system........really tough......very tough.
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yeah exactly i think everyone should give joey a break and wait until u can see what he does on the field actually playing matches for us i think u all will be pleasently suprised
 
Well, Joey Harrington had the living crap beat out of him in Detroit. He was forced to adjust to a system that was not his within his natural athletic ability and mental skills ie, the West Coast Offense. Now like I said, he had the crap beat out of him and I don't care who you are, when you are drafted by a team and expected to come in and have an almost immediate impact...and your years in Detroit has been dissmal, that DESTROYS your confidence.

Now he comes to Miami, with a different style of offense, you have to un-learn what you have learned. You learn habits and tendancies which now contradict what is the philosophy in Miami.

Offenses have different schemes. Yes in the playbook it is X's and O's, but it's what you draw those X's and O's to do is what dictates your offense's scheme. Detroit's was the West Coast Offense which relies on alot of roll outs, a particular blocking strategy, short passes and setting up the run with the pass. When this is what you've been trained in as the philosophy as an NFL offense, and then you switch teams where the scheme is completely different, it takes time for you to make those adjustments and forget the only NFL offense you've ever known.

I never saw Harrington play in college, but it's my understanding he was a pretty darned good quarterback. With that being said, it will take him some time to make the adjustments needed to fully comprehend and ACCEPT the offense without relying on his experiences with a different offensive scheme. That along with the true coaching and mentorship that Coach Saban provides to all of his players, Harrington should be able to develop into the QB he always had the potential to be.

In the voice of Yoda..."patience...you must learn patience"
 
The WCO plays are based on reads by the QB and recievers. What position the D is in is the determining factor. The QB will know that he has 4 or 5 areas to look at for recievers based on the play called. Nothing is changed from the play called in the huddle. In our vertical/spread offense, each route is determined by the played called in the huddle or at the line. The QB is the one responsible for reading the keys on defense with few exceptions. For the QB position, it's more difficult than the WCO. The conversion from the WCO to the vertical type offense has always been difficult for QBs. The WCO-type offense is also what Tedford taught at Oregon with JH as well, so he's basically been in the same offense all along. Mooch, to add to that, runs a version of the WCO that accentuates even more the short passes, with fewer intermediate and long pass routes. He prefers to spread the guys in the box out as much as possible by flooding the short routes, thereby allowing for deficiencies (sp) in the OL.

It doesn't sound like it would be an issue, but every QB who has to adjust away from the WCO has issues. Even the mighty Joe Montana had an adjustment period. Garcia never did adjust successfully. It's also a valid reason why Tedford QBs seem to not do as well in the pros as they did in college. Most teams shy away from moving QBs this way, but Harrington was a good pickup for us due to the DC situation, even tho it appears that DC will be ready... I'm sure the offense would have been adjusted some for JH if he were pressed into duty. Besides that, DCs been in this system for several years, while JH has been in it for only several weeks...
 
Here is my take on it:


As a former QB, I can tell you this: The only difficult part of learning a new system is learning the terminology and getting accustomed to your new recievers. And getting accustomed to your recievers is not that major a deal if you and they work hard together. The bottom line is, you can either make the throws or you can not.
There are some physical parts that are different as far as footwork goes. In the west coast offense, there are alot more 3 step drops and quicker deliveries. In a more conventional offense, you have 5, and even 7 step drops. But again, the botton line is CAN the QB make the the throws.
If Joey Harrington is having any troubles at all, it should be with translating the terminology of the offense onto the football field. IF he is going to cut it as an NFL QB, then the physical part of it should be the least of the concern. It's the mental part that should make him or break him.
 
Joey will be just fine, Saban scouted him before giving up a DP for him, he's got the talent, the skills, just needs time to learn the system the reads, etc. But people on this board have NO patience, no way they give the kid ANY time to adjust.
 
From what I've been reading, Joey's biggest problem appears to be panic when the pocket starts closing in on him even just a little. Maybe it can get a little claustrophobic going from the WCO to a vertical/spread. :lol:
 
He's claustrophobic from being behind one of the worst offensive lines in football over the past 4 years. The whole lions team sucked starting with the coaches. Joey may be beyond repair, who knows,,but talent wise and brain wise, he has what it takes. Now it all goes down to confidense.
 
Silentobserver said:
He's claustrophobic from being behind one of the worst offensive lines in football over the past 4 years. The whole lions team sucked starting with the coaches. Joey may be beyond repair, who knows,,but talent wise and brain wise, he has what it takes. Now it all goes down to confidense.
Click to expand...


I agree that Harrington will probably take a while to feel comfortable in the pocket. When you take a lot of hits, it takes a while to get over it psychologically. But Harrington needs to do his best to trust his line and let it go - or he might find himself sinking down the depth chart.
 
It all comes down to time,
Harrington will have too learn the system, but he also has to learn to trust his line to protect him , so he loses the happy feet and look to get hit all the time.
If he can do this he can be a good QB

Jim Plunkett was that way after playing in New England and SF, but the Raiders sat him down and gave him time, and he won two SuperBowls.

Steve Young never lost the happy feet, but after playing with the Express, and Tampa Bay , the 49ers gave him time to get his trust back in the line and he won a SuperBowl too.

Doug Williams also had to run for his life in Tampa Bay, and learned to pass from the pocketwith Washington and won a SuperBowl .

So we will just have to wait and see.

Hopefully Culpepper will play up to his hipe and Harrington will have the time to get his act together.

If not , Itcould be along season at QB...
 
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