A good point for the QB debate

3P

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Saw this posted in the main forum... had to share it.

rafael said:
I see those as related. Brees was available in that draft, but Wanny was worried about the salary cap impact of having a 1st rd QB on the bench. He thought JF would be good enough and we had been burned by poor play in the nickle D the year before. He also said that Brees wasn't that much better than JF.

It's pretty much the exact same arguments people are using to not draft a QB this year. The salary cap...AJ will be good enough...our running game sucked last year...These QBs don't have anymore potential than AJ...LOL

Hopefully Saban avoids making the same mistake.
http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showthread.php?t=71808

I think he makes very good points. I like AJ very much, but I don't think you pass on a potential franchise QB unless you know 100% sure that your current starter is your guy.

But that's just me :evil:
 

Celtkin

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I've been saying the same thing for a while. The worst thing that can happen, IMO, is that we draft a QB and Feeley turns into a superstar. That would leave us with two potential franchise QBs a la San Diego.

I can think of worse positions to be in. :wink:
 

Boomer

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Lest we just remeber that Brees was on the verge of being dumped and had three very substandard years and put it together finally in a contract year. Lets just wait a while to make sure he IS the real deal.

:)
 

MNFINFAN

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DrAstroZoom said:
You're preaching to the choir as far as I'm concerned.
Well bugger it, I wish the choir would start singing in tune and not be so bloody tone deaf!!!! :lol:

Frankly, I am on the Brown bandwagon, would not be gutted if we picked a QB but would prefer RB at our #2 slot.
 

NaboCane

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First: the "passing on a franchise Quarterback" issue: there is no franchise QB in this year's draft, not one that is readily apparent. If there were, SF would be negotiating with his agent right now, and that would be that, and we would be left to wonder if the second and third-best QB's in the draft were as big a drop-off in talent as they seemed, just as we are wondering about these guys Smith and Rodgers now.

It's all well and good to talk about ending up with two franchise QB's if we drafted one with the second pick and Feeley turned out to be as good as we think he can be, but that is most certainly not the worst-case scenario.

The worst-case scenario is, we reach for Smith or Rodgers with the second overall pic in the draft - That's the second pick, guys - and the guy turns out to be a dud. Or worse: he turns out to be a coach-killer with just enough talent to get by, but not enough to take the team anywhere significant. In other words, if he turns out to be Brees or Fiedler.

Think about that; this is the highest pick this team has had in its 39-year history, and maybe the only time this team will ever pick that high. It's a pick more important and more crucial than any before it; it will set the tone for the Saban era, and define the course for the team's future.

No, we can't afford to reach with this pick. We can't afford to take a guy that has questions attached the way the QB's in this draft all do. This is something we all have to understand, because I'm sure in my heart that Saban must know it too.

And if anyone should understand this, it's those who are lighting the torches and gathering the pitchforks over reaching for Vernon Carey with a pick in the 20's - imagine the horror of reaching for a player in a draft position as rare for the Miami Dolphins as the second overall pick!

If we use this pick rather than trading it, we have to draft a player that is as close to a sure thing as we can get; and the players that statement describes are Ronnie Brown or Braylon Edwards. No other players bring as much potential and as many of the tangibles essential to success in the NFL as those two. It's not sexy, it's not as exciting as even the phrase "Franchise Quarterback," but it's the only thing we can do with the pick - other than trade it to improve the number of overall picks we get in this draft - if we want to avoid the crippling draft mistakes of the past.

Second: rafael's argument regarding the parallels between this situation and Wannstedt's draft decision in 2000 is an example of an unfortunate yet frequent application by Dolphin fans of factual information, to a situation in which that information simply does not apply.

Wannstedt should have drafted Brees in 2k? No. He made the right decision, but for the wrong reasons. He reached by drafting Fletcher because - as the scouts and everyone who read the pre-draft magazines knew - Fletcher was a zone CB, a guy who had to play facing the QB. Miami, as we all know, played press man. Fletcher was not suited for the scheme, as we found out painfully and in a costly manner; and Wannstedt - being a Defensive coach - should have known that.

But Wannstedt was right about one thing - Brees was no better than Fiedler. With the exception of last year - his contract year - Brees has been nothing more than simply terrible. In actual fact, it could be said that Fiedler and Brees are essentially the same QB. As bad as Wannstedt was, he saved us years of heartache and disappointment over that.

(The player he should have taken with that pick was Reggie Wayne, who would have filled the slot role that OJ McDuffie had relinquished due to injury the season prior to that draft; and in that role, it would not have taken Wayne four years to acclimate and excel, the way it did in his role in Indy.)

Third: sentiment aside - and if there's one thing you can count on, it's that this is the way Saban will play it, coldly and without sentiment - the team owes it to no one but itself to give Feeley every opportunity to excel. Not because we nade a significant investment in him, although that is true and must be a secondary factor in the decision. We must do it because Feeley has the talent, skills and tools to be an excellent QB in the NFL. Because to go along with those things, he has technique and experience that would take a rookie QB at least 1-2 years to acquire. And because we own him at a ridiculously low cap number for a starting QB, and it would take 2 good seasons from him to get a better contract, so we have time for him to be what most of us think he can be.

Now: having said all that, I would like to see the team take a solid QB project in the 3rd-4th rounds. And I'd be thrilled - THRILLED, I tell you, if we got Adrian McPherson this draft, because I believe he can be something quite special in this league.

And speaking as a fan: wouldn't it be great if Miami had a special Quarterback again? It's just too bad, and our bad luck that there isn't one to be had at the top of this draft.
 
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KB21

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NaboCane said:
First: the "passing on a franchise Quarterback" issue: there is no franchise QB in this year's draft, not one that is readily apparent. If there were, SF would be negotiating with his agent right now, and that would be that, and we would be left to wonder if the second and third-best QB's in the draft were as big a drop-off in talent as they seemed, just as we are wondering about these guys Smith and Rodgers now.

It's all well and good to talk about ending up with two franchise QB's if we drafted one with the second pick and Feeley turned out to be as good as we think he can be, but that is most certainly not the worst-case scenario.

The worst-case scenario is, we reach for Smith or Rodgers with the second overall pic in the draft - That's the second pick, guys - and the guy turns out to be a dud. Or worse: he turns out to be a coach-killer with just enough talent to get by, but not enough to take the team anywhere significant. In other words, if he turns out to be Brees or Fiedler.

Think about that; this is the highest pick this team has had in its 39-year history, and maybe the only time this team will ever pick that high. It's a pick more important and more crucial than any before it; it will set the tone for the Saban era, and define the course for the team's future.

No, we can't afford to reach with this pick. We can't afford to take a guy that has questions attached the way the QB's in this draft all do. This is something we all have to understand, because I'm sure in my heart that Saban must know it too.

And if anyone should understand this, it's those who are lighting the torches and gathering the pitchforks over reaching for Vernon Carey with a pick in the 20's - imagine the horror of reaching for a player in a draft position as rare for the Miami Dolphins as the second overall pick!

If we use this pick rather than trading it, we have to draft a player that is as close to a sure thing as we can get; and the players that statement describes are Ronnie Brown or Braylon Edwards. No other players bring as much potential and as many of the tangibles essential to success in the NFL as those two. It's not sexy, it's not as exciting as even the phrase "Franchise Quarterback," but it's the only thing we can do with the pick - other than trade it to improve the number of overall picks we get in this draft - if we want to avoid the crippling draft mistakes of the past.

Second: rafael's argument regarding the parallels between this situation and Wannstedt's draft decision in 2000 is an example of an unfortunate yet frequent application by Dolphin fans of factual information, to a situation in which that information simply does not apply.

Wannstedt should have drafted Brees in 2k? No. He made the right decision, but for the wrong reasons. He reached by drafting Fletcher because - as the scouts and everyone who read the pre-draft magazines knew - Fletcher was a zone CB, a guy who had to play facing the QB. Miami, as we all know, played press man. Fletcher was not suited for the scheme, as we found out painfully and in a costly manner; and Wannstedt - being a Defensive coach - should have known that.

But Wannstedt was right about one thing - Brees was no better than Fiedler. With the exception of last year - his contract year - Brees has been nothing more than simply terrible. In actual fact, it could be said that Fiedler and Brees are essentially the same QB. As bad as Wannstedt was, he saved us years of heartache and disappointment over that.

(The player he should have taken with that pick was Reggie Wayne, who would have filled the slot role that OJ McDuffie had relinquished due to injury the season prior to that draft; and in that role, it would not have taken Wayne four years to acclimate and excel, the way it did in his role in Indy.)

Third: sentiment aside - and if there's one thing you can count on, it's that this is the way Saban will play it, coldly and without sentiment - the team owes it to no one but itself to give Feeley every opportunity to excel. Not because we nade a significant investment in him, although that is true and must be a secondary factor in the decision. We must do it because Feeley has the talent, skills and tools to be an excellent QB in the NFL. Because to go along with those things, he has technique and experience that would take a rookie QB at least 1-2 years to acquire. And because we own him at a ridiculously low cap number for a starting QB, and it would take 2 good seasons from him to get a better contract, so we have time for him to be what most of us think he can be.

Now: having said all that, I would like to see the team take a solid QB project in the 3rd-4th rounds. And I'd be thrilled - THRILLED, I tell you, if we got Adrian McPherson this draft, because I believe he can be something quite special in this league.

And speaking as a fan: wouldn't it be great if Miami had a special Quarterback again? It's just too bad, and our bad luck that there isn't one to be had at the top of this draft.
I disagree that there are no top quarterbacks in this draft. Quarterbacks do get their value pumped up when it comes to the draft, but teams don't rate guys high just for the hell of it. If the question marks were as great as you think, these guys wouldn't be getting talked about at the top of the draft. People would be talking about them the way they talked about Chad Pennington.

I also think the worst case scenario for Nick Saban would be to pass on one of these quarterbacks and see that QB become a franchise player while watching Feeley flop.
 

NaboCane

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KB21 said:
I disagree that there are no top quarterbacks in this draft. Quarterbacks do get their value pumped up when it comes to the draft, but teams don't rate guys high just for the hell of it. If the question marks were as great as you think, these guys wouldn't be getting talked about at the top of the draft. People would be talking about them the way they talked about Chad Pennington.

I also think the worst case scenario for Nick Saban would be to pass on one of these quarterbacks and see that QB become a franchise player while watching Feeley flop.

So where we disagree is in the assessment of the top QB's in this draft.

But you have to see that those guys are rated highly more due to the inherent importance of the position than to how much they have earned being rated that high through undeniable talent and dispelling doubts about themselves.

In other words, these are the top guys in the QB pool this draft; but that's only by virtue of not having better candidates from which to choose in this class, not because they would compare favorably to can't-miss QB's coming out of college - the way Peyton Manning and John Elway were rated in their time, for instance.

My point isn't that Rodgers and Smith couldn't turn out to be decent - or even excellent - QB's; it's that there is enough doubt attached to each of them to warrant caution in spending the second overall pick on them.

Furthermore, let me expand on that: if we were the g*ggam Arizona Cardinals or the Cincinnati Bengals, teams that had top-five picks regularly, then this would not be as crucial as it is given the fact - already stated - that this is the highest pick this franchise has ever had, and might EVER have again.

We must get value out of this pick, and that is my point. We cannot afford to gamble on gut feelings, or wishful thinking, or drafting for need. We cannot afford to look at a player and say that he has significant deficiencies but we think we can coach them out of him - that's what we did with Carey, and look where that has gotten us.

We must take the player with this pick that has the fewest negative questions attached, the most game-changing kind of talent, and the greatest skillset that would help the team that Saban is building. And the two players that fit that description are be Ronnie Brown - far and away the best choice at this pick regardless of position - and Braylon Edwards.

Because when you look at how important this pick will be if we do keep and use it, you have to see that not only are Brown and Edwards the most solid talents at their positions in this draft, but they also have the least downside - and that's absolutely vital when you factor in how important it is that this pick not fail.
 

inFINSible

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I'm absolutely positively 100% guilty.....of agreeing with NaboCane.

Everyword.
 

KB21

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NaboCane said:
So where we disagree is in the assessment of the top QB's in this draft.

But you have to see that those guys are rated highly more due to the inherent importance of the position than to how much they have earned being rated that high through undeniable talent and dispelling doubts about themselves.

In other words, these are the top guys in the QB pool this draft; but that's only by virtue of not having better candidates from which to choose in this class, not because they would compare favorably to can't-miss QB's coming out of college - the way Peyton Manning and John Elway were rated in their time, for instance.

My point isn't that Rodgers and Smith couldn't turn out to be decent - or even excellent - QB's; it's that there is enough doubt attached to each of them to warrant caution in spending the second overall pick on them.

Furthermore, let me expand on that: if we were the g*ggam Arizona Cardinals or the Cincinnati Bengals, teams that had top-five picks regularly, then this would not be as crucial as it is given the fact - already stated - that this is the highest pick this franchise has ever had, and might EVER have again.

We must get value out of this pick, and that is my point. We cannot afford to gamble on gut feelings, or wishful thinking, or drafting for need. We cannot afford to look at a player and say that he has significant deficiencies but we think we can coach them out of him - that's what we did with Carey, and look where that has gotten us.

We must take the player with this pick that has the fewest negative questions attached, the most game-changing kind of talent, and the greatest skillset that would help the team that Saban is building. And the two players that fit that description are be Ronnie Brown - far and away the best choice at this pick regardless of position - and Braylon Edwards.

Because when you look at how important this pick will be if we do keep and use it, you have to see that not only are Brown and Edwards the most solid talents at their positions in this draft, but they also have the least downside - and that's absolutely vital when you factor in how important it is that this pick not fail.
You are right. The chance to pick this high again won't come along very often with this team. The chance to pick a quarterback this good doesn't come along very often either.

I, personaly, am very tired of seeing the Dolphins rely upon other team's back up quarterbacks and late round picks to fill their quarterback position.

And I still say that if these two guys had so many question marks, like Chad Pennington did when he came out of Marshall, people would be talking about them going 18th in the draft. Not 1st or 2nd.
 
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