Are The Dolphins and Tua Further Apart Than People Think?

[JamesWsenior]

Awesome post Fever bravo

Failing that the Oline can pull the QB to the side and say, we want a percentage or we will Jessie Davis you. Again.

 

[TheMageGandalf]

Failing that the Oline can pull the QB to the side and say, we want a percentage or we will Jessie Davis you. Again.

Yeah with the money these guys are making now a dinner out or some watches aren't going to cut it

 

[JamesWsenior]

Yeah with the money these guys are making now a dinner out or some watches aren't going to cut it

The old days you just kept the boys all fatted up on Ribs and Steaks don't cut it anymore.

The e-bike thing by Reek was a nice attempt but again not quite there.

The new Gen all have Degrees in something from University...social sciences and the like.

 

[BeastGoGrrr]

Failing that the Oline can pull the QB to the side and say, we want a percentage or we will Jessie Davis you. Again.

Lol funny.

But Tua could always remind them how Bridgewater/Thompson reminded the league and all fans just how crappy the O line is when they are not blocking for the leagues fastest QB ( release wise)

At times I wish the fans had to see what happens to this offense when we don't have a QB who can get rid of the ball in 2.28 seconds.

Not asking for injuries or anything. Just people really take for granted how Tua makes this line look so much better

 

[JamesWsenior]

Lol funny.

But Tua could always remind them how Bridgewater/Thompson reminded the league and all fans just how crappy the O line is when they are not blocking for the leagues fastest QB ( release wise)

At times I wish the fans had to see what happens to this offense when we don't have a QB who can get rid of the ball in 2.28 seconds.

Not asking for injuries or anything. Just people really take for granted how Tua makes this line look so much better

That right there is a can o worms. Chicken and Egg stuff. Be ready for the oncoming debate. Won't be surprised if a whole new topic gets started about. You were warned!

 

[phinsforlife]

That's true and a good point.

But a turd is a turd.

Ray Lucas or Mark Sanchez, no matter the changes would not be successful in today's game IMO.

Of course but here is another way of looking at it. Dan Marino, who we would probably all agree was a pretty good QB, and who you could argue that although not the best QB in the history of the NFL, may have been the best pure passer in the history of the NFL. His career QB rating was 86. Right now an 86 QB rating leaves you equivalent to Justin Fields and borderline out of the NFL. It is much easier to throw the ball these days. The QBs are not better. The rules just make it easier.

 

[BeastGoGrrr]

Of course but here is another way of looking at it. Dan Marino, who we would probably all agree was a pretty good QB, and who you could argue that although not the best QB in the history of the NFL, may have been the best pure passer in the history of the NFL. His career QB rating was 86. Right now an 86 QB rating leaves you equivalent to Justin Fields and borderline out of the NFL. It is much easier to throw the ball these days. The QBs are not better. The rules just make it easier.

People may disagree, but I think the rules makes it better or easier for the dual threat QBS

Take a Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen, put him in Marinos era, and I don't think he succeeds.

However, take a pure passer, say a guy like Cousins and I believe he would succeed in Marinos era. Mahomes would succeed although not solely a pure passer

Conversely, take a guy like Cunningham, put him in today's era and I think he dominates the league.

I would LOVE to see Warren Moon play with today's rules

 

[MARINO1384]

i think given the rules changes, a lot easier to play QB now than it used to be. therefore more QBs have the appearance of being pretty darn good than they used to. it is kind of like i can dunk equivalently to shaq on an 8 foot hoop, but i can't dunk at all on a regulation hoop.

It is but even the majority of the rules changes that made todays era happened from 1995 to 2011. Beast made a post of years twice in the last 15 years and my theory holds true that we are at an age of an unprecedented amount of good qbs. Peak may not be the best but the quantity of good to great starters is at an all time high. I also did 2001 a page back and again most previous years were 8-12 of those guys from elite to good level, not 17 possibly 19 if including guys like mayfield and Geno smith.

Here’s beast list

2015- Rodgers/Big Ben/ Luck/ Brady/ Brees/ Manning/ Romo/R. WILSON/ Rivers/ Ryan/ Eli Manning/ Stafford

There's 12. The others are QBS teams could or would realistically look to move on from or just weren't that good.
Flacco/ Newton/ Tannehill/Alex Smith/Palmer/Kaepernick/ Bridgewater/Carr/Foles/ Bradford/Dalton/ Cutler/ Geno Smith/ Hoyer/Cassel/ Griffin/ Manziel/Winston/ Marriota/ Bartlesville.

2010- Manning/ Rodgers/ Brees/ Rivers/ Vick/ Brady/Eli/ Ryan/ McNabb and Big Ben.

That's 10 there

The rest-
Schaubb/ Freeman/ Palmer/Flacco/ Garrard/Cutler/Cassel/ Orton/ Fitzpatrick/Sanchez/ Bradford/ Henne/Hasselbeck ( could include with the top 10 making it 11)/ Hill/ Kitna/ Campbell/Alex Smith/ Brett Favre ( at this time of career)/Collins/ Anderson/ Romo( Injured most of season)Mccoy.

Of course it's subjective.

But I see the point the poster was making.

There are definitely fringe QBS both years. But comparatively there appears to be a diferrence corroborating the OPS post.

Of course, again, it's subjective. And as you know, you can't really prove a subjective argument one way or the other.

 

[miamiron]

Yeah with the money these guys are making now a dinner out or some watches aren't going to cut it

Depends on the watch!

 

[phinsforlife]

It is but even the majority of the rules changes that made todays era happened from 1995 to 2011. Beast made a post of years twice in the last 15 years and my theory holds true that we are at an age of an unprecedented amount of good qbs. Peak may not be the best but the quantity of good to great starters is at an all time high. I also did 2001 a page back and again most previous years were 8-12 of those guys from elite to good level, not 17 possibly 19 if including guys like mayfield and Geno smith.

Here’s beast list

this is all a matter of opinion, but i do not think we are in an unprecedented age of good QBs, i just think the rules are such that it makes it easier to play QB and gives more QBs the appearance of looking good. average QB rating now is 90 (4 points better than Dan Marinos career rating), it was 78 in the year 2000, 70 in 1979, 63 in 1971, and 53 in 1950. yes the QBs are more talented than they used to be, but the same for every player that opposes them. it is the same thing for every sport. everyone is more talented (bigger, better training, better teaching, etc) than they used to be. all things being equal, the growing talents of the qb should be more or less offset by the growing talents of the defense. i think the increase in the rating is mostly due to the rules. impossible to play defense now. can't hit the qb. can't jam the receivers. can't hit the defenseless receivers in the middle of the field and blow them up (this really favors tua skill set). i think it is easier to look decent as a QB in today's nfl just because the bar is lower to look decent. oddly, if tom brady played in 1970, i still think he would have been very good, but not great. the rules changes really favored his skill set. anyway even with the rules that make it easier for QBs to put up numbers, there is still mahomes that is better than everyone else. you can still make relative judgements about who is the best of the bunch. qb10 might have much better numbers than qb10 from 1980, but is that QB really any better? they are both still qb10. age old debate in sports. do you judge players against each other, or against their peers? larry bird might be average in todays nba, but was great against the players he had to play against. there is no right answer, but i think you have to judge players against the competition they faced.

 

[1972forever]

i agree they will sign a deal. that is not really the point of this thread, which was started awhile ago, and the point was that there was going to be a tough negotiation. it now appears that is the case. not sure why a negotiation bothers people, that's business. there is a lot of money involved, and the stakes are high, for both sides. and the answer is not as clear cut as people like to believe. here is sort of how it goes:

team tua: i lead the league in passing, here is what top QBs make

dolphins: you have not won a single playoff game, and have had only one good year where you both produced and were not hurt. all the QBs who got the big deals got their team to the super bowl, with the exception of one guy, who at least has never been hurt, and that team then won only 5 games after paying him

team tua: you screwed me out of my first two years with that bum flores as the coach, that is the teams fault

dolphins: subsequent to that, we surrounded you with the perfect coach, and a ton of talent. a fair bit of your success is due to us and the system. if we pay you that kind of money, you will no longer have the system around you, and you are not equipped to do it on your own. we need to strike a deal that allows us to have the flexibility to add talent around you so the team can be good. it is in your best interest as well to be part of a good team.

team tua: you think it is the system? how did teddy bridgewater look running the same system. don't pay me, good luck doing any better, how about another 20 years of sucking again. how old is steve ross? does he want to go through that again, and he doesn't have much time left

dolphins: fine, fair point, but if we don't pay you, who else will? you are not viewed in the same category as those other QBs. you want to test the market? good luck, you are not going to get the offers you expect. and do you want to go to another organization who is not going to surround you with the coaching and talent we have? maybe you will get another flores. have fun, meanwhile we will make you play out the 5th year option. who knows, maybe you get hurt again, or are not as good (kind of like it looked at the end of last season), and your market value will take a big digger. you want to take that risk, or do you want your future secured now. our offer would still make you the highest paid player on the team, and set for life. nothing to sneeze at.

team tua: screw you guys, that is BS. top QBs get paid $55mm per year. you think you can live without me, lets see how things look at voluntary OTAs with me taking some time off. plus the fans love me. you just took season ticket prices up 30%. the team is relevant again. we just got 5 prime time games. players want to come here. this is all because of me. you know how much money i just made you? my salary is chump change in compare to what I am doing for this franchise.

and around and around they go. eventually they will get to a deal. in my view tua will get paid, and pretty bigly. not all decisions are pure football decisions. they are business decisions as well. it is human nature to fear the unknown. the fans love tua. the path of least resistance is to sign tua, and feel like they can at least put a decent and entertaining product on the field for a few years as opposed to sucking. and who knows, maybe something better happens, you always have a chance.

Teams win playoffs games, not QB’s. The Dolphins would have been just an average to below average team the past two years without Tua.

All Tua and his agent need to do if the Dolphins bring up the playoffs is to show them the sub 500 record the Chargers have had with Herbert as their QB and the Chargers have zero wins in the playoffs since Herbert became their starter 4 years ago.

The Dolphins will pay Tua and they will pay him more than $50 million a year. If they let him play out his 5th year and they let him walk in free agency. Another team will sign him for over $50 million a year and they will be left looking for another Tua for the next two decade.

 

[phinsforlife]

Teams win playoffs games, not QB’s. The Dolphins would have been just an average to below average team the past two years without Tua.

All Tua and his agent need to do if the Dolphins bring up the playoffs is to show them the sub 500 record the Chargers have had with Herbert as their QB and the Chargers have zero wins in the playoffs since Herbert became their starter 4 years ago.

The Dolphins will pay Tua and they will pay him more than $50 million a year. If they let him play out his 5th year and they let him walk in free agency. Another team will sign him for over $50 million a year and they will be left looking for another Tua for the next two decade.

i certainly agree that is what tua and his agent will say. no argument from me on that one! i also suspect for reasons already mentioned, tua and co will fare pretty well in their negotiation when all is said and done

 

[MARINO1384]

this is all a matter of opinion, but i do not think we are in an unprecedented age of good QBs, i just think the rules are such that it makes it easier to play QB and gives more QBs the appearance of looking good. average QB rating now is 90 (4 points better than Dan Marinos career rating), it was 78 in the year 2000, 70 in 1979, 63 in 1971, and 53 in 1950. yes the QBs are more talented than they used to be, but the same for every player that opposes them. it is the same thing for every sport. everyone is more talented (bigger, better training, better teaching, etc) than they used to be. all things being equal, the growing talents of the qb should be more or less offset by the growing talents of the defense. i think the increase in the rating is mostly due to the rules. impossible to play defense now. can't hit the qb. can't jam the receivers. can't hit the defenseless receivers in the middle of the field and blow them up (this really favors tua skills set). i think it is easier to look decent as a QB in today's nfl just because the bar is lower to look decent. oddly, if tom brady played in 1970, i still think he would have been very good, but not great. the rules changes really favored his skill set. anyway even with the rules that make it easier for QBs to put up numbers, there is still mahomes that is better than everyone else. you can still make relative judgements about who is the best of the bunch. qb10 might have much better numbers than qb10 from 1980, but is that QB really any better? they are both still qb10. age old debate in sports. do you judge players against each other, or against their peers? larry bird might be average in todays nba, but was great against the players he had to play against. there is no right answer, but i think you have to judge players against the competition they faced.

Was with you until the end. That’s part of my point though qb 10 is not qb 10 of the past.

Qb 5 through 14 anlmost identical. Splitting the difference between Tua/Hurts/Herbert/Goff/Dak/Stafford/love/stroud/Purdy/Cousins is nearly impossible. Just about all of them have a case for either talent/production or both to be in the 5 spot and each have reasons to be in the 14 spot. Sure maybe you take one over Stafford or cousins due to age but production and talent they are all up there. Maybe stroud and love separate themselves this year or elimate themselves but right now with one great year of production I’d stick them in this group.

 

[zullo1]

Of course but here is another way of looking at it. Dan Marino, who we would probably all agree was a pretty good QB, and who you could argue that although not the best QB in the history of the NFL, may have been the best pure passer in the history of the NFL. His career QB rating was 86. Right now an 86 QB rating leaves you equivalent to Justin Fields and borderline out of the NFL. It is much easier to throw the ball these days. The QBs are not better. The rules just make it easier.

If Marino played today, he once again would break every record. The rules today are crap.

 

[1972forever]

If Marino played today, he once again would break every record. The rules today are crap.

He might break every record but the Dolphins still don’t have a complete team. So he might put up great stats but the Dolphins wouldn’t win a SB.

I believe Miami has good talent on many units but the OL and the DL aren’t good enough at this time to win a SB or even a playoff game for that matter.