Are The Dolphins Starting To Develop Players? | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Are The Dolphins Starting To Develop Players?

So Be

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I'm looking at players over the last couple of yeas like Tannehill, Matthews, Clay, Miller, OV, Odrick, Shelby, Wilson, and Jones (who did take a step back) and they have all improved past the expectations of many. There are also MANY more who we have hopes for. I'm thinking that we have to give some credit to the coaching here.

Have e finally turned the corner to where draft picks will actually matter, and we will not be so dependent on FA?
 
I don't think development has been an issue, the issue has been acquisition of talent and retention of talent. After watching NFL network's top 100 players list so far, I have been amazed at the number of former Phins and players that we passed on in previous drafts that are on the list. With the players you mentioned in the OP, I wonder how many will stay Phins, especially if we undergo another coaching change if Philbin has a bad year...
 
I don't think development has been an issue, the issue has been acquisition of talent and retention of talent. After watching NFL network's top 100 players list so far, I have been amazed at the number of former Phins and players that we passed on in previous drafts that are on the list. With the players you mentioned in the OP, I wonder how many will stay Phins, especially if we undergo another coaching change if Philbin has a bad year...

VG point, and I do agree other than the development part. I believe it's been better the last couple of years, and expect much more prof this year.
 
If Ross had blown this thing up and got rid of Sparano, Ireland and Parcells after he bought the team from Wayne H, we'd be a lot further along in the process. Instead we have had fiasco after fiasco, starting with the botched attempt at hiring Harbaugh. Management changes, coaching changes, GM changes, that stuff affects player development and player retention, too. We just need more stability all around...
 
The issue for me is that we drafted "mediocre" college guys and made them decent NFL pros, while many other teams drafted "great/highly productive/highly talented" college guys who were likely to be decent pros at worst and many of them became great NFL players.

For example, Buffalo is killing recent drafts imo and they're quickly catching up from dumpster fire to kicking our azz. But they're not alone and the recipe isn't exactly hard.

The PFF/ESPN/CBS analyses of our roster bears this out. Very few scrubs, very few High Quality/Elite players and a lot of league-average or slightly better players.

The FO has repeatedly drafted for need and not on talent. When you draft for need you draft for solid. When you draft for talent you draft for spectacular and you accept that you will have overloads in certain areas of the team and weak patches in others. We drafted for need and STILL ended up with a roster where we have pretty big holes or underdeveloped units.

I will give props to Coyle and Rodgers for their ability to coach players up, but we haven't fed them with enough elite-potential talent to see what kind of superstars they could really develop. That's why I hate the idea of losing Dion Jordan before we tap into his potential. Ken O'Keeffe has done jack really, Turner was a disaster. Campbell did a good job with Clay but we've seen little from Egnew or Sims or Miller (not that I'm very hopeful whoever is the coach).

Turning chopped liver into a decent starter is not a bad ability to have. But if you never have the chance to turn a college star into an NFL star - guess what? You won't have any stars on your team that you didn't sign for vast chunks of your cap space.
 
The issue for me is that we drafted "mediocre" college guys and made them decent NFL pros, while many other teams drafted "great/highly productive/highly talented" college guys who were likely to be decent pros at worst and many of them became great NFL players.

For example, Buffalo is killing recent drafts imo and they're quickly catching up from dumpster fire to kicking our azz. But they're not alone and the recipe isn't exactly hard.

The PFF/ESPN/CBS analyses of our roster bears this out. Very few scrubs, very few High Quality/Elite players and a lot of league-average or slightly better players.

The FO has repeatedly drafted for need and not on talent. When you draft for need you draft for solid. When you draft for talent you draft for spectacular and you accept that you will have overloads in certain areas of the team and weak patches in others. We drafted for need and STILL ended up with a roster where we have pretty big holes or underdeveloped units.

I will give props to Coyle and Rodgers for their ability to coach players up, but we haven't fed them with enough elite-potential talent to see what kind of superstars they could really develop. That's why I hate the idea of losing Dion Jordan before we tap into his potential. Ken O'Keeffe has done jack really, Turner was a disaster. Campbell did a good job with Clay but we've seen little from Egnew or Sims or Miller (not that I'm very hopeful whoever is the coach).

Turning chopped liver into a decent starter is not a bad ability to have. But if you never have the chance to turn a college star into an NFL star - guess what? You won't have any stars on your team that you didn't sign for vast chunks of your cap space.

Good post. Can't say I disagree with any of that.
 
The issue for me is that we drafted "mediocre" college guys and made them decent NFL pros, while many other teams drafted "great/highly productive/highly talented" college guys who were likely to be decent pros at worst and many of them became great NFL players.

For example, Buffalo is killing recent drafts imo and they're quickly catching up from dumpster fire to kicking our azz. But they're not alone and the recipe isn't exactly hard.

The PFF/ESPN/CBS analyses of our roster bears this out. Very few scrubs, very few High Quality/Elite players and a lot of league-average or slightly better players.

The FO has repeatedly drafted for need and not on talent. When you draft for need you draft for solid. When you draft for talent you draft for spectacular and you accept that you will have overloads in certain areas of the team and weak patches in others. We drafted for need and STILL ended up with a roster where we have pretty big holes or underdeveloped units.

I will give props to Coyle and Rodgers for their ability to coach players up, but we haven't fed them with enough elite-potential talent to see what kind of superstars they could really develop. That's why I hate the idea of losing Dion Jordan before we tap into his potential. Ken O'Keeffe has done jack really, Turner was a disaster. Campbell did a good job with Clay but we've seen little from Egnew or Sims or Miller (not that I'm very hopeful whoever is the coach).

Turning chopped liver into a decent starter is not a bad ability to have. But if you never have the chance to turn a college star into an NFL star - guess what? You won't have any stars on your team that you didn't sign for vast chunks of your cap space.

Plus the competition at the positions where you are loaded will make that unit even better, Jordan and Vernon should make each other even better. Landry should push Gibson and Mathews which may even make Hartline and Wallace a little nervous.
 
If Ross had blown this thing up and got rid of Sparano, Ireland and Parcells after he bought the team from Wayne H, we'd be a lot further along in the process. Instead we have had fiasco after fiasco, starting with the botched attempt at hiring Harbaugh. Management changes, coaching changes, GM changes, that stuff affects player development and player retention, too. We just need more stability all around...

I agree with this. And I agree with the predicating problems. This, along a few personality traits in Philbin and Ross, is why I believe Philbin is NOT on or near the hot seat.

Ross is INVESTED in his decisions. For all of the things that have happened, Ross is one of the few owners letting his own money do the talking. If you reflect where we have traveled in Ross' tenure and what we left behind before him, you can see Ross is unwavering in his ownership of the team, it's resources and it's direction. Ross believes in Philbin. Ross wants Philbin leading this team. And you can tell he has no doubt in his decisions, his people and the direction of this franchise.

Ross is playing for the long game. And that mentality requires a "stay the course" and "improve dont change" mantra. Ross would not have addressed the stadium if he felt he didn't have the right guy leading the team. He's building his brand and he's confident he has the right coach. And furthermore we are starting to develop evidence that we manufacture talent within and depend less and less on FA. We have needed an infusion early in their tenure to help accelerate the process and turn over the roster in certain areas. Now, we are starting to see how their patience with young players and deferring their starting blends with their mantra to groom, teach and develop talent.

Fans want to see rookies start. Unless pressed, we won't. Grading our drafting after the season is not a good way to measure our draft ability. Years 2 and 3 are when our draftees really start to mold into the players they envisioned when they drafted them. For example, last year we didn't hear a peep out of Dallas Thomas. Fans wrote him off as an injured bust. Now, he is the unchallenged starter at LG. And quickly become the leader of the OL. That is an impressive growth in one season. A lot of it is talent, much more is coaching and opportunity.

As fans, we don't like not getting our radical changes year in and year out we feel are necessary. We've all had our moments when we would love a fresh start. But we have to evaluate everything involved. We will change mid-level coaching and replace troublesome or underperforming players, but Ross is the owner, Philbin is the coach and Tannehill is the QB. This is the design of our franchise, like it or not.

As frustrating as it can be at times, it is what we have needed as a franchise for decades. We have needed an owner willing to spend his money on players, investing in our infrastructure and facilities. An owner who doesn't clamor to make sudden drastic changes to the scheme of the organization. An owner who will endure losing for the greater good. We've weathered a lot of storms and some recently. But you have to say, as a collective whole, Ross has stayed the course and believed in his decisions.

He has paid for FAs. He has invested heavily in his own stadium and infrastructure. He has let his HC lead and mold this team in his own vision. Yes, there have been bumps. There are always bumps. But as a franchise, we've needed someone who doesn't respond to the bumps and keeps his eyes on the road.

We've got it finally. We just need to be patient while this reclamation project finally turns us into the direction we need. Philbin has to produce wins to turn the fans into believers, but I can see signs that he's on the right track. He's just got to keep pushing forward until the hard work pays off. And it will.
 
There is a lot more talent in the building than at any point in the last 15 years. Joe Philbin has always been all about developing talent and that is what he knew and understood in Green Bay. He is not your rah rah type of coach, his skill is in thorough and comprehensive preparation. He's a teacher.
Last season we were badly hurt by the Jonathan Martin issue and considering the inherent weakness and dysfunction of the Offensive line, we were still in contention for a playoff berth until the very end.
Some of the players drafted last year who showed so little are now ready to contribute and the addition of Lazor and hopefully some offensive creativity, we should be well placed for a return to prominence. I'm looking forward to the season.
 
The issue for me is that we drafted "mediocre" college guys and made them decent NFL pros, while many other teams drafted "great/highly productive/highly talented" college guys who were likely to be decent pros at worst and many of them became great NFL players.

For example, Buffalo is killing recent drafts imo and they're quickly catching up from dumpster fire to kicking our azz. But they're not alone and the recipe isn't exactly hard.

The PFF/ESPN/CBS analyses of our roster bears this out. Very few scrubs, very few High Quality/Elite players and a lot of league-average or slightly better players.

The FO has repeatedly drafted for need and not on talent. When you draft for need you draft for solid. When you draft for talent you draft for spectacular and you accept that you will have overloads in certain areas of the team and weak patches in others. We drafted for need and STILL ended up with a roster where we have pretty big holes or underdeveloped units.

I will give props to Coyle and Rodgers for their ability to coach players up, but we haven't fed them with enough elite-potential talent to see what kind of superstars they could really develop. That's why I hate the idea of losing Dion Jordan before we tap into his potential. Ken O'Keeffe has done jack really, Turner was a disaster. Campbell did a good job with Clay but we've seen little from Egnew or Sims or Miller (not that I'm very hopeful whoever is the coach).

Turning chopped liver into a decent starter is not a bad ability to have. But if you never have the chance to turn a college star into an NFL star - guess what? You won't have any stars on your team that you didn't sign for vast chunks of your cap space.

Well said. I know many hate Turner but, he was given Jerry (who he made better), Martin, and injured Dallas, and an undrafted first year guy in Brenner, who held up as good as could be expected. That was trying to work with some pretty horrible groceries. We shall see on the TE's this year.
 
There is a lot more talent in the building than at any point in the last 15 years. Joe Philbin has always been all about developing talent and that is what he knew and understood in Green Bay. He is not your rah rah type of coach, his skill is in thorough and comprehensive preparation. He's a teacher.
Last season we were badly hurt by the Jonathan Martin issue and considering the inherent weakness and dysfunction of the Offensive line, we were still in contention for a playoff berth until the very end.
Some of the players drafted last year who showed so little are now ready to contribute and the addition of Lazor and hopefully some offensive creativity, we should be well placed for a return to prominence. I'm looking forward to the season.

True story. We all know that Jordan, Taylor, Dallas, and even Sims had talent coning in. This is their year to step in and produce. We hopefully add in FA's like Wallace, Ellerbe, and even Wheeler playing much better, and there is reason to look forward to this year, with RT the key.
 
I don't think development has been an issue, the issue has been acquisition of talent and retention of talent. After watching NFL network's top 100 players list so far, I have been amazed at the number of former Phins and players that we passed on in previous drafts that are on the list. With the players you mentioned in the OP, I wonder how many will stay Phins, especially if we undergo another coaching change if Philbin has a bad year...
That would point to a problem with development, no?
 
There is a lot more talent in the building than at any point in the last 15 years. Joe Philbin has always been all about developing talent and that is what he knew and understood in Green Bay. He is not your rah rah type of coach, his skill is in thorough and comprehensive preparation. He's a teacher.
Last season we were badly hurt by the Jonathan Martin issue and considering the inherent weakness and dysfunction of the Offensive line, we were still in contention for a playoff berth until the very end.
Some of the players drafted last year who showed so little are now ready to contribute and the addition of Lazor and hopefully some offensive creativity, we should be well placed for a return to prominence. I'm looking forward to the season.

The question is whether we have enough elite talent in the building. I think we have fewer scrubs in the building that we've maybe had in the last 15 years. But we probably have the same number of elite players as we've had since our glory years ended. It's the elite few who raise the bar and who get you to and through playoff games. We simply lack those guys and we don't draft like we need any. I have no idea why. Pouncey, Wake, Starks, Grimes, Fields and Clay are probably the closest we have to elite but none of them, bar Wake could really be considered in that category. None of them have been really consistent gamechangers for us, while they've been hugely important pieces for us.

We've had a couple more elite players on our books, but let them go. Letting Marshall go was the act of an insecure new Head Coach, in my view. He should at least have given it a year to see if they could work a relationship out. Reggie Bush was up there. Can you imagine Bush in the Lazor offense? Holy crap.

Cutting Long was the right call. Not sure letting all of Soliai, Tony McDaniel and Kendall Langford go over the past few years was good (though I accept they weren't elite). Langford and McDaniel are both huge pieces in elite d-lines though. I never saw Vontae as elite, so I'm not that disappointed he's gone.

It's just disappointing to see that we can't retain elite talent when we find it, we usually have to overpay to get it, we rarely draft it and we're never really looking out for it. It keeps us stuck in the mid-table mire and the fanbase crying out for inspiration but never getting it.
 
I agree with a lot of the other poster in this thread, but one thing I don't agree on is Philbin. As some others have said Philbin is a teacher, and he is above average at doing just that. He would be a solid QB coach, OL coach, TE coach etc. But he is NOT a leader IMO. A leader is someone who others trust in big situations, someone who others rise above who they are as individuals to become a better TEAM in crucial situations. Since Philbin has been here there has been one thing that shines above all else. In big situations we don't show up. That is a lack of leadership, period.

We can go back to 08 with the season on the line at the jets, and we came out and played the best we had played all season. We were efficient, effective, prepared, and most importantly we had the emotion and confidence on our side. I was proud to be a dolphin fan. In the biggest games under Joe, like last year's jet game, with the season on the line, same situation as 08, we looked like we had not practiced all week. No one was on the same page, there was no game plan, the entire team was looking around hoping someone else would step up because no one had a plan as to how we were going to win. THERE WAS NO LEADERSHIP !!! And you can spin however you want, but if your team comes out flat in every big situation, that goes on your leader. We had the talent last year to be in the playoffs, we were even in position, at 8-6, to be in the playoffs, but when the team needed a leader to take them there, there was no one to be found.

If we finish 8-8 next year and Philbin is still around then it won't matter how much talent Hickey brings in, we will never be relevant. It doesn't matter how good the groceries are, if the cook continues to burns the food there won't be any gourmet meals.
 
I agree with a lot of the other poster in this thread, but one thing I don't agree on is Philbin. As some others have said Philbin is a teacher, and he is above average at doing just that. He would be a solid QB coach, OL coach, TE coach etc. But he is NOT a leader IMO. A leader is someone who others trust in big situations, someone who others rise above who they are as individuals to become a better TEAM in crucial situations. Since Philbin has been here there has been one thing that shines above all else. In big situations we don't show up. That is a lack of leadership, period.

We can go back to 08 with the season on the line at the jets, and we came out and played the best we had played all season. We were efficient, effective, prepared, and most importantly we had the emotion and confidence on our side. I was proud to be a dolphin fan. In the biggest games under Joe, like last year's jet game, with the season on the line, same situation as 08, we looked like we had not practiced all week. No one was on the same page, there was no game plan, the entire team was looking around hoping someone else would step up because no one had a plan as to how we were going to win. THERE WAS NO LEADERSHIP !!! And you can spin however you want, but if your team comes out flat in every big situation, that goes on your leader. We had the talent last year to be in the playoffs, we were even in position, at 8-6, to be in the playoffs, but when the team needed a leader to take them there, there was no one to be found.

If we finish 8-8 next year and Philbin is still around then it won't matter how much talent Hickey brings in, we will never be relevant. It doesn't matter how good the groceries are, if the cook continues to burns the food there won't be any gourmet meals.

I respect your opinion and in the end you may be correct. I want to see more before I am convinced. We showed up for the NE game, the Carolina game, the SD game etc and that NE game was a big spot. The verdict is still out for me on our coach and our QB. The situation with the OL would not seem to help either at this key juncture.
 
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