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Back to the OL debate.

MDFINFAN

MDFINFAN

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Part of me says the middle of our OL still needs upgrading, then I look back at the numbers..



Ronnie--950 yards--pro bowl with 10 TD's
Ricky --650 yards..5 TD's
Polite-- short yardage specialist who actually got the short yards.

Then I look at the playoff game, new york jets game, and teams with pretty good D's, and we didn't dominant them, except for the Pats.

Does this say that since this was our OL first year together and not all of them, i.e., Thomas missing most of it, and Smiley missing the end of it..can the OL be better in year 2.. When I think of all the rushing totals for miami, this team was close to 2000 yards.. so were they just young and just getting started or do we really need upgrades.. Help I can't decide..
 
Injurys played a big part. I would love for us to get that center from the Ravens. Then both starting guards would be back and Satel (sp) can try out for guard as well. Carey is the other key if BP and co resign him.
 
MDFINFAN said:
Part of me says the middle of our OL still needs upgrading, then I look back at the numbers..



Ronnie--950 yards--pro bowl with 10 TD's
Ricky --650 yards..5 TD's
Polite-- short yardage specialist who actually got the short yards.

Then I look at the playoff game, new york jets game, and teams with pretty good D's, and we didn't dominant them, except for the Pats.

Does this say that since this was our OL first year together and not all of them, i.e., Thomas missing most of it, and Smiley missing the end of it..can the OL be better in year 2.. When I think of all the rushing totals for miami, this team was close to 2000 yards.. so were they just young and just getting started or do we really need upgrades.. Help I can't decide..
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I think the entire 08 season can be considered a fluke and a wash. However, winning 11 games can't be ignored. Winning and losing are big factors in a teams psyche.

You have to take something away from the Dolphins due to such a soft schedule, you have to give them something back due to the fact that the entire staff was new and the HC was a rookie. Last season was just an amazing season in so many ways.

But back to the winning and losing. This team now knows if they follow the coaching staffs plan of getting in the weight room, not missing meetings, trusting your fellow teammates, never giving up on a game, forgetting about the last play cause it's all about the next play. All those things were a big part of the coahing staffs menatlity and the players believed. That's the most important aspect of the 08 season IMO. We have a winning mentality a winning attitude in place.

Now as we move forward and tweak the roster even more the telant improves and the players here will have a positive effect on whomever we sign or draft. The Coaches won't have to spend day after day beating that into players heads, the players know the routine works. The coaches can then be more efficent at the game plan and schemes.

Losing can have a snowball effect and winning can have the same effect. I think we are a much more solid team at the end of 09, but don't win the division and maybe miss the playoffs due to the monster schedule. However we will be a SB caliber team by 2010.
 
There's no part of this team that couldn't be upgraded alittle to help reach the ultimate goal. Oline especially, the better they are the better the team is.
 
Well towards the end of the season our line consisted of the rookie Long and the veteran Carey. Satele 'anchored' the middle with a torn labrum and flanked by waiver wire pickup Andy Alleman and career-scrub Ike Ndukwe. That's not going to get it done. Our best veteran lineman may have been Justin Smiley, but he was out with a season-ending injury and our line suffered greatly. We never had a good starting RG, and the leading candidate a mid-round rookie, was injured in game 1 and out for the season. So yeah, of course we need shoring up.

Let's start with the Tackle position. We have no backup T's on this team ... and that's flirting with disaster. We definitely need a decent T. Carey can slide over to LT if Long is injured, so it doesn't have to be someone capable of playing LT even ... but we need someone who can at least provide decent RT backup. At the moment, we don't have anyone of quality there, and that's a problem.

Then let's move to G. At best we have 1 starter, the oft-injured Justin Smiley. We all hope he returns fully healthy and the player he was before, but he still has shown a history of injuries, so a quality backup G would be nice. Heck, we don't even have a 2nd starting G, so before we talk about a backup G, let's look at finding a starter. Donald Thomas may develop into a starter, but these people thinking he was a quality G when he went down in game 1 last season are simply being delusional. He was a raw rookie who lacked lower body power. Sure, he had a nice strong upper body and he had quickness, but he lacked a lot of technique and lower body power--which is crucial in this blocking scheme. So we're definitely looking to upgrade over Donald Thomas at starting G. Ideally, Smiley is a RG, so if we can find a good LG, even better.

Our C position has taken a lot of negative press as Satele didn't perform too well down the stretch. But, he was flanked by sub-mediocrity, and playing with a torn labrum. I expect improved play next season when he is healthy again. I hope he gets surrounded by more talent. That said, we probably have quality depth at this position. But, given that this is the best C draft in recent memory, with Wood, Mack, Unger, Luigs and Caldwell all raising eyebrows, I wouldn't be adverse to picking up another C even if he is shifted to G.

So will we improve the OL this offseason? Absolutely. If we neglected it we would be shooting ourselves in the foot. Our OL was and is a work in progress. Sure, there are quality building blocks, but the unit is definitely not finished.
 
Digital said:
Well towards the end of the season our line consisted of the rookie Long and the veteran Carey. Satele 'anchored' the middle with a torn labrum and flanked by waiver wire pickup Andy Alleman and career-scrub Ike Ndukwe. That's not going to get it done. Our best veteran lineman may have been Justin Smiley, but he was out with a season-ending injury and our line suffered greatly. We never had a good starting RG, and the leading candidate a mid-round rookie, was injured in game 1 and out for the season. So yeah, of course we need shoring up.

Let's start with the Tackle position. We have no backup T's on this team ... and that's flirting with disaster. We definitely need a decent T. Carey can slide over to LT if Long is injured, so it doesn't have to be someone capable of playing LT even ... but we need someone who can at least provide decent RT backup. At the moment, we don't have anyone of quality there, and that's a problem.

Then let's move to G. At best we have 1 starter, the oft-injured Justin Smiley. We all hope he returns fully healthy and the player he was before, but he still has shown a history of injuries, so a quality backup G would be nice. Heck, we don't even have a 2nd starting G, so before we talk about a backup G, let's look at finding a starter. Donald Thomas may develop into a starter, but these people thinking he was a quality G when he went down in game 1 last season are simply being delusional. He was a raw rookie who lacked lower body power. Sure, he had a nice strong upper body and he had quickness, but he lacked a lot of technique and lower body power--which is crucial in this blocking scheme. So we're definitely looking to upgrade over Donald Thomas at starting G. Ideally, Smiley is a RG, so if we can find a good LG, even better.

Our C position has taken a lot of negative press as Satele didn't perform too well down the stretch. But, he was flanked by sub-mediocrity, and playing with a torn labrum. I expect improved play next season when he is healthy again. I hope he gets surrounded by more talent. That said, we probably have quality depth at this position. But, given that this is the best C draft in recent memory, with Wood, Mack, Unger, Luigs and Caldwell all raising eyebrows, I wouldn't be adverse to picking up another C even if he is shifted to G.

So will we improve the OL this offseason? Absolutely. If we neglected it we would be shooting ourselves in the foot. Our OL was and is a work in progress. Sure, there are quality building blocks, but the unit is definitely not finished.
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Wow. Agreed on all counts.

Hopefully we continue building from the lines out, it's still the safest way to greatness.
 
The numbers should be a lot better. We didnt run the ball well this year AT ALL. I have been watching most of the games over again (I hate the offseason), and there were COUNTLESS occasions where we needed to run the ball to kill some clock, or to keep the defense honest, and we just couldnt. And I'm not talking 2 yard runs, I'm talking 3 and 4 yard losses. We relied on trickery far too much, and even worse, we were forced to pass the ball when conventional wisdom said we should run. Yes, the short passing game worked with Chad's accuracy and intelligence, but it had me biting my finger nails every time.

Bottom line, Ronnie and Ricky are too talented for our rushing yardage to be just average. We need to be able to pound the rock to close out games. Parcells and Sparano wont allow this gimmicky stuff to continue for much longer. Not saying we are done with the Wildcat and those end-arounds to Ricky, but please, not when we're up 21-17 late in the fourth quarter.
 
im all for improving the lines.
we need to open up our running game, while protecting our qb.

we also need to stop the opponents running game and pressure their qb.
 
Excellent analysis, Digital. Saved me from making a similar post. I am, however, a little more skeptical regarding Satelle but I still think he would either make a very servicable guard or at the very least good depth at G and center. Regardless, I see the FO continuing to make efforts to improve the OL and hopefully it will become the best in the league within a couple of years. Thanks.
 
We should keep building up the O-line until we can run the ball effectively when the opposing defense knows that we are going to run the ball. Our running game in goal line situations drove me nuts. And the coaches actually steered clear of running plays in short yardage goal line situations, instead opting for fade patterns and other passing plays, or gimmicks.

O-line is still the top priority.
 
I think adding a guy like Jason Brown in the off season could solidify our line. You'd then have a proven everything except for RG, but with all the competition between Satele, Thomas, Ndekwu, etc., I find it hard to believe somebody wouldn't come out on top, and I would hope it's Satele.
 
I don't think that Smiley can be counted on to last a full season. True he is a good G but he is extremely injury prone and has been so his whole career......
 
Digital said:
Well towards the end of the season our line consisted of the rookie Long and the veteran Carey. Satele 'anchored' the middle with a torn labrum and flanked by waiver wire pickup Andy Alleman and career-scrub Ike Ndukwe. That's not going to get it done. Our best veteran lineman may have been Justin Smiley, but he was out with a season-ending injury and our line suffered greatly. We never had a good starting RG, and the leading candidate a mid-round rookie, was injured in game 1 and out for the season. So yeah, of course we need shoring up.

Let's start with the Tackle position. We have no backup T's on this team ... and that's flirting with disaster. We definitely need a decent T. Carey can slide over to LT if Long is injured, so it doesn't have to be someone capable of playing LT even ... but we need someone who can at least provide decent RT backup. At the moment, we don't have anyone of quality there, and that's a problem.

Then let's move to G. At best we have 1 starter, the oft-injured Justin Smiley. We all hope he returns fully healthy and the player he was before, but he still has shown a history of injuries, so a quality backup G would be nice. Heck, we don't even have a 2nd starting G, so before we talk about a backup G, let's look at finding a starter. Donald Thomas may develop into a starter, but these people thinking he was a quality G when he went down in game 1 last season are simply being delusional. He was a raw rookie who lacked lower body power. Sure, he had a nice strong upper body and he had quickness, but he lacked a lot of technique and lower body power--which is crucial in this blocking scheme. So we're definitely looking to upgrade over Donald Thomas at starting G. Ideally, Smiley is a RG, so if we can find a good LG, even better.

Our C position has taken a lot of negative press as Satele didn't perform too well down the stretch. But, he was flanked by sub-mediocrity, and playing with a torn labrum. I expect improved play next season when he is healthy again. I hope he gets surrounded by more talent. That said, we probably have quality depth at this position. But, given that this is the best C draft in recent memory, with Wood, Mack, Unger, Luigs and Caldwell all raising eyebrows, I wouldn't be adverse to picking up another C even if he is shifted to G.

So will we improve the OL this offseason? Absolutely. If we neglected it we would be shooting ourselves in the foot. Our OL was and is a work in progress. Sure, there are quality building blocks, but the unit is definitely not finished.
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Well said, the ONLY thing I might take issue with is this:

Donald Thomas may develop into a starter, but these people thinking he was a quality G when he went down in game 1 last season are simply being delusional. He was a raw rookie who lacked lower body power. Sure, he had a nice strong upper body and he had quickness, but he lacked a lot of technique and lower body power--which is crucial in this blocking scheme.
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I'm not sure what evidence you were looking at that lead you to say he "lacked lower body power". I'm not saying that you don't have a reason for saying it and I'd like to hear it.

Besides that lower body issue you have with DT. There is nothing saying he will ever come back 100%, just like Smiley. I'm sure the coaches have their finger on that pulse.

I am 100% with you on needing OL depth. I would be shocked if we didn't take at least 2 OL picks no matter what we do in FA. If for no other reason than the tallent pool looks good for OL this draft.

If we don't resign Carey maybe 3, again.
 
After reading all of you guys posts, mostly I get upgrade center guard or find quality depth.. addition by substraction, in other words find replacements at center/guard and let last years starters be the depth, is that what most are saying..??

someone pointed out by the end of the season we were working off 2 pickup guards with a 2nd year center.. I point back to the fact we almost ran 2K yards.. bad OL's don't come close to that amount.. I do agree with depth.. but do we start a whole new OL or do we start the same OL, with pushers behind them.. that's where I'm having a problem.. I know it takes time for a OL to gel, should we start with the same OL and see if they do better with a year of experience together under their belt.. or do a 2nd year center already show he can't do it.. and of course Smiley and Thomas didn't get the real benefit of a year.. Thomas has being considered heavy, as in a pounder, the D said numerous times, they can FEEL him.. Parcells called him a Godsent..so he's a lock if his foot is healed.. but a foot as we know can be a problem when you're trying to move 300 pound strong men.. so we'll see.. he's had the whole NFL season to recover..

I feel at this point we need to upgrade LG, C, and RG..and use last year's starters as backup, if we can sit Wilford at his salary, we can sit Smiley at his..even though that's a big number to be sitting, I doubt if he's healty he makes it to the bench...if he does, he's gone year 3. Of course everyone knows that mean we're starting over and it's going to take some games for a new line to gel.. so even if they're better, they may play no better for half the season....
 
Digital said:
Well towards the end of the season our line consisted of the rookie Long and the veteran Carey. Satele 'anchored' the middle with a torn labrum and flanked by waiver wire pickup Andy Alleman and career-scrub Ike Ndukwe. That's not going to get it done. Our best veteran lineman may have been Justin Smiley, but he was out with a season-ending injury and our line suffered greatly. We never had a good starting RG, and the leading candidate a mid-round rookie, was injured in game 1 and out for the season. So yeah, of course we need shoring up.

Let's start with the Tackle position. We have no backup T's on this team ... and that's flirting with disaster. We definitely need a decent T. Carey can slide over to LT if Long is injured, so it doesn't have to be someone capable of playing LT even ... but we need someone who can at least provide decent RT backup. At the moment, we don't have anyone of quality there, and that's a problem.

Then let's move to G. At best we have 1 starter, the oft-injured Justin Smiley. We all hope he returns fully healthy and the player he was before, but he still has shown a history of injuries, so a quality backup G would be nice. Heck, we don't even have a 2nd starting G, so before we talk about a backup G, let's look at finding a starter. Donald Thomas may develop into a starter, but these people thinking he was a quality G when he went down in game 1 last season are simply being delusional. He was a raw rookie who lacked lower body power. Sure, he had a nice strong upper body and he had quickness, but he lacked a lot of technique and lower body power--which is crucial in this blocking scheme. So we're definitely looking to upgrade over Donald Thomas at starting G. Ideally, Smiley is a RG, so if we can find a good LG, even better.

Our C position has taken a lot of negative press as Satele didn't perform too well down the stretch. But, he was flanked by sub-mediocrity, and playing with a torn labrum. I expect improved play next season when he is healthy again. I hope he gets surrounded by more talent. That said, we probably have quality depth at this position. But, given that this is the best C draft in recent memory, with Wood, Mack, Unger, Luigs and Caldwell all raising eyebrows, I wouldn't be adverse to picking up another C even if he is shifted to G.

So will we improve the OL this offseason? Absolutely. If we neglected it we would be shooting ourselves in the foot. Our OL was and is a work in progress. Sure, there are quality building blocks, but the unit is definitely not finished.
Click to expand...

Sorry but what do you expect of a 6th. round rookie, He did very well for his draft pos. and very good def. lineman gave him credit for being difficult to go against, of course he needs work, do you know a rookie who doesn´t ?
It was pretty bad that he got hurt so soon because the more PT. a rookie gets the faster his development.

I am looking forward to seeing D. Thomas next year but I have nothing against drafting better talent if its there for us.
 
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