Baseball HOF

[GreenMonster]

Listening to the Herd this morning talk about the HOF got me more to thinking about my stance on it. Roger Maris didn't make it because his #'s where not great for a long time, but Phil Rizzuto makes it because of 1 MVP and a long career with the Yanks. Maris owned the greatest record in sports for a long time and has one of baseball most memorable moments with his speech. When I tell my kids about baseball, Roger Maris's name will come up more than once and Rizzuto never. Don Sutton, 324 wins and a slightly above avg. career. Nolan Ryan has 7 no-hitters and was one of the most feared pitchers ever. Just like Sutton, I would rank Ryan as a better than avg. pitcher, but 7 no hitters makes you great and you deserve a spot in the HOF. I will never tell my kids about the merits of Don Suttons 324 wins in 23 years, but I will remind them of a pitcher with 7 no-hitters and one that beat up Robin Ventura at 40+.

You can't tell the story of Rock without Buddy Holly, the Doors, or Kurt Cobain, but they wouldn't make the HOF because of not enough stats if baseball writers had to vote.

 

[FaninPatsyLand]

I think the Hall of Fame voting is a joke. These writers that are voting need to take a step back and let go of their personal grudges against certain players. There is absolutely no reason why Jim Rice should be left out of the Hall. He was incredible for a decade (the numbers speak for themselves) and these writers can't see past the fact that he's an ******* off the field...

...I must have forgotten that this is a personality contest. Well, in that case, why don't we remove Ted Williams. Forget that he was the greatest hitter of all time, he wasn't exactly a media darling.

 

[Ray Finkle]

I think the Hall of Fame voting is a joke. These writers that are voting need to take a step back and let go of their personal grudges against certain players. There is absolutely no reason why Jim Rice should be left out of the Hall. He was incredible for a decade (the numbers speak for themselves) and these writers can't see past the fact that he's an ******* off the field...

...I must have forgotten that this is a personality contest. Well, in that case, why don't we remove Ted Williams. Forget that he was the greatest hitter of all time, he wasn't exactly a media darling.

There are a lot of guys in the Hall of Fame who don't deserve to be there and a bunch that do belong that never will. Phil Rizzuto doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame, neither does Bill Mazeroski. There are tons you can name.

Jim Rice was the most dominating hitter in baseball in his era from 1974 to 1986. Yet he's not there because he pissed off too many writers. It's funny because the guys that don't vote for people like Rice say "Oh his character was bad" or "He was a one dimensional player, he only hit, he didn't play defensive or steal bases". Well Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth aren't in the Hall of Fame because of their character. And Ted Williams and Reggie Jackson aren't in the Hall of Fame for their defense.

In my opinion the players in the Hall should be the only ones to vote. They know more about the game than these sports writers. Just like how I think the HOFers and current players should vote on MVPs, Cy Young, ROTY awards because the awards are jokes.

 

[MikeO]

Problem is this. THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE!

Prior to 1997 if you were a beat writer for 25 years for the Cleveland Indians you never saw a game played in the N.L in person....ever! You were covering the Indians all that time! So, how are you qualified to vote on a hall of fame ballot when it comes to an N.L. player?!??? You never saw them play!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[FaninPatsyLand]

Problem is this. THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE!

Prior to 1997 if you were a beat writer for 25 years for the Cleveland Indians you never saw a game played in the N.L in person....ever! You were covering the Indians all that time! So, how are you qualified to vote on a hall of fame ballot when it comes to an N.L. player?!??? You never saw them play!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is an excellent point, and is even somewhat true today. Alot of these writers know less about certain players than a good fan of a specific team does. It's not their fault, the writers are paid to follow a certain team, but they are in no way qualified to vote on players outside of their job specification. This entire voting process needs to be completely overhauled.

 

[UCFinfan86]

Listening to the Herd this morning talk about the HOF got me more to thinking about my stance on it. Roger Maris didn't make it because his #'s where not great for a long time, but Phil Rizzuto makes it because of 1 MVP and a long career with the Yanks. Maris owned the greatest record in sports for a long time and has one of baseball most memorable moments with his speech. When I tell my kids about baseball, Roger Maris's name will come up more than once and Rizzuto never. Don Sutton, 324 wins and a slightly above avg. career. Nolan Ryan has 7 no-hitters and was one of the most feared pitchers ever. Just like Sutton, I would rank Ryan as a better than avg. pitcher, but 7 no hitters makes you great and you deserve a spot in the HOF. I will never tell my kids about the merits of Don Suttons 324 wins in 23 years, but I will remind them of a pitcher with 7 no-hitters and one that beat up Robin Ventura at 40+.

You can't tell the story of Rock without Buddy Holly, the Doors, or Kurt Cobain, but they wouldn't make the HOF because of not enough stats if baseball writers had to vote.

Nolan Ryan isn't in the HOF? that is crazy he is the best pitcher ever

 

[MikeO]

Nolan Ryan isn't in the HOF? that is crazy he is the best pitcher ever

He went in 1999. He is in. He's far from the best pitcher ever though he had 324 wins but had almost 300 loses. Something like 294 or so.

 

[GreenMonster]

Nolan Ryan isn't in the HOF? that is crazy he is the best pitcher ever

Nolan is in, I just have a hard time lumping truly great players, with models of consistency and durability throughout there major league careers.

 

[Roman529]

Goose Gossage, is from here in my hometown of Colorado Springs, and should be in the HOF....his numbers are better than Bruce Sutters. Hopefully he will get in next year. I have seen the Goose here several times and gotten to talk with him...he is a great guy.

 

[phunwin]

Nolan is in, I just have a hard time lumping truly great players, with models of consistency and durability throughout there major league careers.

It's a fine line, to be sure. Kirby Puckett is in, but Jim Rice is out. Puckett's career was ended prematurely by glaucoma, Rice's by the fact that his bat speed fell off a cliff. Tony Perez is in mostly because he piled up RBIs like they were going out of style, but he was a tremendous beneficiary of his ultra-talented teammates, and he played forever. Don Sutton is in because he pitched forever, but as Bill Simmons once noted, if the Dodgers had called the Red Sox and offered Sutton for Rice even up, the Red Sox would have giggled and hung up. Doesn't really seem fair, but longevity goes a LONG way with the Hall.

Personally, I think Rice gets in next year (and he probably should, but then, so should Ron Santo and Bert Blyleven, both of whom are more deserving, so I'm not losing sleep over it). His vote totals have increased enough annually that he'll probably make it on the next go-around. Plus, his plight generates roughly 1 billion letters each year from Red Sox fans in search of something new to complain about, and eventually, I suspect the BBWAA will vote him in just to shut them up.

More than anything, I'd love to see a Hall of Fame purge. Start throwing out some of these stiffs like Rizzuto that shouldn't be rubbing shoulders with Babe Ruth and Ted Williams. There's no argument I respect less than "well, Phil Rizzuto's in the Hall, so (blank) should be in, too." By that logic, at least 1/3 of the guys currently in the game could be in the Hall of Fame. You can't use the lowest common denominator as a basis for comparison. (I don't mean to pick on Scooter; there are probably two dozen players even less deserving in the Hall, but I just can't think of any of them right now.) [/tangential rant]

 

[phunwin]

Goose Gossage, is from here in my hometown of Colorado Springs, and should be in the HOF....his numbers are better than Bruce Sutters. Hopefully he will get in next year. I have seen the Goose here several times and gotten to talk with him...he is a great guy.

That Sutter made it and Goose didn't is insanity. If you're taking the line that relief pitchers are not as valuable and should be generally excluded from the Hall, that's fine. But if Sutter's good enough, so is Gossage, since Gossage was BETTER than Sutter by virtually every measure.

One can make the same argument about Bert Blyleven and Don Sutton, by the way. Blyleven's career ERA+ was 118. Sutton's was 108. That means that, taking park factors into account, Blyleven was 18% better than a league average pitcher, while Sutton was 8% better. If the two had switched teams, Sutton would have won about 250 games and been a historical afterthought, while Blyleven would have won about 350 and been an instant, first-ballot HOFer.

 

[finfansince72]

The older relievers pitched more than one inning too. Gossage is a no brainer, I don't really see an arguement for keeping this guy out. The baseball writers all have an agenda it seems. Id like to be a fly on the wall at some of the meetings these guys have so I could hear who was arguing for and against some of these guys.

 

[phunwin]

I think that more and more baseball fans have become sabermetric-oriented, but that most of the BBWAA is stuck in the old-school mindset where things like "grit" and "hustle" count for more than your ability to put runs on the board. By the same token, the fact that Sutter was "intimidating" and a "pioneer" apparently counts for more than the fact that Gossage was better in every way, shape and form.

 

[GreenMonster]

I think that more and more baseball fans have become sabermetric-oriented, but that most of the BBWAA is stuck in the old-school mindset where things like "grit" and "hustle" count for more than your ability to put runs on the board. By the same token, the fact that Sutter was "intimidating" and a "pioneer" apparently counts for more than the fact that Gossage was better in every way, shape and form.

I think we get to caught up in stats sometimes especially career numbers. Don Sutton has 324 wins and thats great, but did teams go, man we have no chance today Sutton on the mound. Sure Jack Morris doesn't have the wins, or era, but he was a teams #1 starter for 10+ years and was a playoff rock (12-2). Game 7 of the World Series speaks for itself.

The real saddest thing to me is that Palmerio may still get in for career #'s but was never the feared player that a Rice or Dawson was.

 

[Ray Finkle]

Personally, I think Rice gets in next year (and he probably should, but then, so should Ron Santo and Bert Blyleven, both of whom are more deserving, so I'm not losing sleep over it). His vote totals have increased enough annually that he'll probably make it on the next go-around. Plus, his plight generates roughly 1 billion letters each year from Red Sox fans in search of something new to complain about, and eventually, I suspect the BBWAA will vote him in just to shut them up.

There's no way Rice gets in next year with Cal Ripken, Tony Gwynn and Mark McGwire on the ballot. In fact I think, I could very well be wrong, but I think this was the last year for Rice's name to be on the ballot.

As for Red Sox fans complaining about something new and writing letters so the BBWAA will vote him in to shut them up, I have no idea where you heard that from or if you're just assuming. I haven't heard one Red Sox fan mad about Rice not getting in. Yes Sox fans are upset about it but after two minutes its over with, Sox fans have more things to worry about like a CFer/leadoff hitter/SS. The Sox fans know Rice should be in but they also realize he pissed off the wrong people.