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Best First Day in the AFC EAST

aesop said:
The problem I have with it is we could've had Brady Quinn and Dwayne Jarrett instead of Ted Ginn and John Beck.

Ginn has more question marks than Jarrett, and Jarrett would've given us another red zone threat, which is a weakness for Ginn.

And really, there's no way John Beck has more upside than Brady Quinn.
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I was upset yesterday also but...how do you know??? They haven't played in the NFL yet???
 
I really like this draft also. The potential is there for all of our day 1 selections to be very good players and we have an excellent coaching staff. we just took dt paul soliai from utah in the 4th round which also makes me happy. Mueller/Cam have a plan and are going with it.
 
Nice post CK. It very enlightening for me to read all of this. One thing can be said form my perspective - the FO and Staff know tons more about the players they picked than I do. I don't think they have to justify one thing to us - it is thier jobs that depend upon the success of their endeavors.

Personally, I like have the two Pacific Island men we have taken. Like Junior, there is a different mentality and desire coming from the folks in that region and I want it for us. That is an intangible of course. Way back when we all started wondering about the draft and I say some bodacious video of Ginn Jr., I was in awe of his ability. I just know that he will give us that something extra that we have been needing for a long time.

I expect the rest of the draft will get us some great talent as well.

Anyway, thanks again for the insigt.
 
Raekwon The Che said:
Know what's funny? What's a better combination?

Quinn, Jarrett and Kalil

or

Ginn, Beck and Satele
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Exactly. No one would ever question combo #1. In fact, you'd probably receive a great grade from the "experts."

Now you guys get to go through what the Bills' fans did last year. Time showed it turned out to be a good choice. Hopefully for your guys' sakes, it works out. And while I definitely think Ginn is a dangerous threat (not at #9), I wouldn't ever be able to justify my team passing Quinn for Beck. Especially now that Quinn has a chip on his shoulder. Time will tell I guess.
 
Dwayne Jarrett is seriously overrated. There's a reason he dropped to the 2nd round. It isn't just his speed. His speed dictated that he would have trouble getting open against man coverage at the NFL level...just like he did in college.

He actually had a lot of trouble in college getting open against tight man coverage. He didn't consistently do it. He never gained separation. The coverage he faced in college was typical off, zone type stuff and he excels at that. He won't face that in the NFL. These corners will be in his grill staying in his hip pocket and he just won't be able to make the physical catches consistently enough to be successful in that environment. He's not even strong with his hands, it is no wonder Keyshawn wants to teach him to get in the weight room and use his hands like he does and be strong with them to gain last-minute separation. He doesn't already do that...and it is questionable at best whether he'll learn to do that even with Keyshawn teaching him.

You ask me Ginn, Beck and Satele vs. Quinn, Jarrett and Kalil? I'll take the former, every time.

Now, change that to Ginn, Beck and Satele vs. Quinn, Steve Smith and Kalil?

THAT is a tough question.
 
BTW good call for GRT8 here on Ginn.

This was my pre-draft evaluation. I still had Quinn above Ginn, but I saw Ginn as the most likely pick:

Last year, Boomer, KB21, and I had a fair amount of luck predicting the Jason Allen pick simply by following some connections. In the end, all three of us were tempted to do a bit of wishful thinking on the prediction, choosing the guys we wanted instead of the guys we actually thought Miami would take. Lawson was a sexy pick, but Allen was where all the connections were.

This year the same kind of connections analysis points toward WR Ted Ginn Jr. of Ohio State. Cam Cameron and staff have met with Ted twice now, with significant chalk talk sessions being had at both meetings. As per a number of players that have spoken with Miami, the staff have taken to drilling their interviews extensively on their playbooks, asking them to draw up as many plays as they can remember in a timed period, ostensibly 60 seconds. The reason I bring this up is because Ted Ginn Jr., though he does not have a reputation as the sharpest knife in the drawer, grew up the son of one of Ohio's most successful high school football coaches. He has also played both ways, was the #1 cornerback recruit in the nation in high school, converted to WR in college. His background would give him significant advantages over some other players in any chalk talk session with Cam Cameron and the staff. Additionally, Cam Cameron first met Ted Ginn Jr. when he was in junior high school. It has gone unadvertised, but Cameron may have a relationship with Ted Sr. What we do know is that Chris Chambers and Ted Ginn Jr. have a close relationship from when they lived down the street from each other. Ted said that Chris is like an older brother to him. There were reports that they are actually first cousins, but that is unconfirmed.

Couple the chalk talk advantages with Randy Mueller's very extensive history of drafting receivers with speed, such as another Ohio State product, Joey Galloway, and you have one prospect that marries the two different, and sometimes conflicting, preferences of both Randy Mueller and Cam Cameron. With both guys kicking off what they hope to be a long run in a complicated and difficult relationship as General Manager and Head Coach, neither of which has final say authority (remember all moves must be agreed-upon by both men, with ties broken by Bryan Wiedmeier), I would look for them both to gravitate towards a pick that could help exemplify this complicated equal-power relationship working in action. That's my opinion.

From an offensive standpoint, Cameron has noted that he would like to build from the center-outward. That means a quarterback, runningback, fullback, and center. They're working on the quarterback issue now with Trent Green, Culpepper, and Lemon, and possibly a draft quarterback depending on who is available where. The fullback they got in not only Cory Schlesinger, but my feeling is Kyle Eckel could make the roster as well. The runningback is obviously taken care of with Ronnie Brown and Ricky Williams. While I would not count on Rex Hadnot being long for center, that position is not destined to be taken care of with the #9 pick. There is no denying that the offense needs a spark, however...especially in light of Randy McMichael's release. I believe it is well-advertised by now that Chris Chambers' best production seems to have come when he has been allowed to move around the field and especially into the slot position. Getting a receiver that can play Chambers' Flanker position, even as a rookie, allows Chris to get into positions where he can do more danger despite our weak offensive line.

Many have suggested taking Levi Brown at the #9 spot. He has been very good at Penn State, and he has loads of experience, a tremendous attitude and the will to accept coaching in order to get better. He has good size and physicals. He is, however, lacking in the athleticism department and though he slides well, there is significant question as to whether he has the quick feet to play the position. For a guy with poor hand placement that needs improving through coaching, he would need to have exceptional feet in order to survive as a rookie left tackle in 2007. To me, there is too much uncertainty over his ability to play the left tackle position to put a position value premium on him as a prospect.

The Dolphins could also use a nice re-load on defense in this draft. As is well-advertised by now, the defense has some well-aged parts on it. The front office did not make a special effort to get younger for the sake of getting younger, and that could mean we begin re-stocking with draft picks, including the #9 pick. Adam Carriker is a beast of a defensive end, perfect for this defense in every way but one...that being the fact that we've got Matt Roth in his third year off a second round draft pick, and Vonnie Holliday on a brand new four-year deal. I have him as one of the top 6 talents in the draft, nonetheless. Alan Branch has the potential to be a dominant 3-technique in this league but he has the stamina and physique of a guy that will end up at the 1-technique (pretty much a nose tackle, for all intents and purposes) because he can't seem to get that perfect athlete's body and stamina.

Leon Hall and Darrelle Revis are the best two corners in the draft. Revis doesn't have the experience going against top flight receivers that Hall does, but he also doesn't have the tape Hall does of getting burnt deep by Dwayne Jarrett and Ted Ginn Jr. Revis is a monster tackler, very physical, a leader in the secondary, and well-versed in Dave Wannstedt's brand of press man coverage. Hall has better experience, and better ball skills. They are both about as athletic as each other, in fact two of the top three most athletic corners in the draft based on a size-weighted basis (Marcus McCauley is #1, no surprises there).

Many have suggested that LaRon Landry would be an excellent pick in the secondary for the Dolphins. I do not share this position. First off, I believe Reggie Nelson to be a better pure safety prospect, as he has the same wheels as Landry but has been a much more natural intimidator and more importantly, ball hawk. Many believe that taking Landry (or Nelson) has the potential to fix our problems at safety as well as corner, by moving Jason Allen back to corner. I say this has the potential to weaken two positions, because Allen has already have a tough time learning one position, and this was true at Tennessee as well. To move him to corner would give us a rookie at safety, and a veritable rookie at corner as well. That does not help as much in 2007. Taking Hall or Revis would help the team more in 2007 by allowing Allen to resume what he has learned at safety, where he showed tremendous explosion toward the ball late in the year.

Pat Willis is not likely to be a popular pick at #9 because of what it would mean for Zach Thomas. But the bottom line is he is the rare kind of prospect that you look for in the top 10 of the draft, and he could help us re-load an important position that could go cold any year now when Zach Thomas retires. Many believe that he would play a year from the bench. This is not true. Immediately, he would likely start at weak side linebacker over Channing Crowder. It would seem a waste to put Channing on the bench, but he would not stay there very long. Either he, or Willis, would be Zach's eventual successor. Both could man the middle for a great many years, once Zach retires. For those that are concerned with 2007, Zach would likely come off the field on passing downs and in nickel packages. His coverage skills are weakening a bit, which I think we can all agree on. Willis and Crowder would come in on those downs.

Overall when it comes to the players we could pick at #9, Carriker, Willis, Branch, Hall, Revis, Landry, Nelson, Brown, or Ginn Jr., the ones I find to have the most ability to affect this team in 2007 would be Hall, Revis, and Ginn Jr. Are those the best players of the bunch? No. I have Carriker a clear best player among the group of possibilities, but I am not sure Miami agree with me.

Maybe I have a bit of a junior high mentality, but when it comes to which of Hall, Revis, and Ginn Jr. I believe the Dolphins should pick, I think of them matching up against each other. When Ted Ginn Jr. faced Michigan in 2005, he caught 9 passes. When he faced them in 2006, he caught for 100+ yards and a long touchdown that was caught directly on Leon Hall in coverage. Hall ran a 4.39 at the Combine, and Ginn Jr. made him look slow. He has also made Thorpe Award winner (given to the best defensive back in college ball) Aaron Ross look silly in press man coverage for a touchdown against Texas. Ted Ginn Jr. could clearly win his matchup with Leon Hall, and I do not think it a far stretch of the imagination to see him winning a matchup on Darrelle Revis.

I have never seen a player as functionally fast as Ted Ginn Jr. in pads, on the field. I was not watching college ball when Deion played, nor was I watching when Barry Sanders played. What makes Ted Ginn Jr. so special is his ability to go zero to 60 mph at the drop of a hat, and his ability to change directions at top speeds. He has a bigger range of swivel at top speeds than your normal "fast" players that end up tracked when they are going at their top speeds. Ginn ends up looking untracked, to where he can make sharp cuts at speeds normally not possible. I have seen full 90 degree cuts that make your jaw drop and harken back to the heyday of O.J. Simpson at USC. This does not just make him a threat as a punt returner and kick returner (although he would immediately become the most dangerous return man in the NFL outside of Devin Hester, and maybe not even excepting him). This makes him a threat on offense, because he has a natural feel for extending his angles and busting through them. I've also not seen a player as light as him break as many tackles as he regularly does because of his great balance and quickness. It is simple, if you're going to make a square tackle on him, he has such great quickness as to make your square tackle attempt more of a glancing blow by the time you reach him. You must wrap up, you can't arm tackle him. I never thought I'd say that about a guy that is only a little over 170 pounds, but it is absolutely true. If any of you ever get the time, search on YouTube for Ted Ginn Jr.'s high school highlight video. If you thought "the tape" from Reggie Bush was impressive, get a load of Ted Ginn Jr. He will make a dozen cuts on any one play, running around and by high school players as if they are pee-wee players. I haven't seen stuff like that since the last time I played with Bo Jackson on Tecmo Super Bowl.

As for his receiving skills, which get commonly knocked, he is raw, but he does not lack potential in this regard. There is NOTHING in his running to suggest that he has stiff hips, or an inability to run precise routes. As a coach's son, he has an understanding of many sides of the game, and the ability to know what each part of the offense should be doing. The fact of the matter was that at OSU, they did not ask him to run a wide variety of routes, so it isn't completely his fault that he doesn't run a wide variety of routes with precision. Torry Holt rounded off his routes for the first couple of years in St. Louis. Martz did not care, so long as he ran and caught at top speeds. The same may be true with Ginn Jr. If you are a Courtney Taylor and you run a 4.5, have average athleticism, it is a little bit more important to run precise routes and be able to do everything really well to make yourself dangerous, than it is if you are Ted Ginn Jr. and you could smoke just about any corner that attempts to play some classic press man on you.

As for his hands, I believe he has tremendous hands and ability to focus on the ball, especially considering the speeds at which he is commonly running when he makes those catches. I haven't noticed hands as a problem for Ginn, nor have I noticed them being particularly exceptional like on Robert Meachem. Even in high school as a corner, he had the ability to high-point the ball and make fantastic catches. In fact, he is such an accomplished corner that he could even be considered for two-way action, especially in a pinch. If he fails as a receiver, you could put him on defense and still end up with one of the best corners in football.

So again, this all comes back to the connections. Cameron familiar with the kid himself from meeting him in Junior High. He's familiar with his father, one of the best high school coaches in the state of Ohio. If Cameron decides to hit up any of his old Michigan connections, they'll likely tell him just how difficult it was to handle Ted Ginn Jr. His background suggests that he can probably pass the chalk test. His speed suggests that he easily passes Mueller's speed tests. He's "like a brother" to Chris Chambers. He has the most potential to impact the team in 2007. He can play Flanker while Chambers moves inside. He can return punts and kicks where Az Hakim is the only punt returner on the roster, and Miami has no experienced kick returner. One pick, one player, and he can impact the team at four positions. He can play Flanker, he can help us move Chambers into the slot, he can return punts, and he can return kicks.
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ckparrothead said:
Dwayne Jarrett is seriously overrated. There's a reason he dropped to the 2nd round. It isn't just his speed. His speed dictated that he would have trouble getting open against man coverage at the NFL level...just like he did in college.

He actually had a lot of trouble in college getting open against tight man coverage. He didn't consistently do it. He never gained separation. The coverage he faced in college was typical off, zone type stuff and he excels at that. He won't face that in the NFL. These corners will be in his grill staying in his hip pocket and he just won't be able to make the physical catches consistently enough to be successful in that environment. He's not even strong with his hands, it is no wonder Keyshawn wants to teach him to get in the weight room and use his hands like he does and be strong with them to gain last-minute separation. He doesn't already do that...and it is questionable at best whether he'll learn to do that even with Keyshawn teaching him.

You ask me Ginn, Beck and Satele vs. Quinn, Jarrett and Kalil? I'll take the former, every time.

Now, change that to Ginn, Beck and Satele vs. Quinn, Steve Smith and Kalil?

THAT is a tough question.
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:clap: Couldn't agree more
 
ckparrothead said:
Dwayne Jarrett is seriously overrated. There's a reason he dropped to the 2nd round. It isn't just his speed. His speed dictated that he would have trouble getting open against man coverage at the NFL level...just like he did in college.

He actually had a lot of trouble in college getting open against tight man coverage. He didn't consistently do it. He never gained separation. The coverage he faced in college was typical off, zone type stuff and he excels at that. He won't face that in the NFL. These corners will be in his grill staying in his hip pocket and he just won't be able to make the physical catches consistently enough to be successful in that environment. He's not even strong with his hands, it is no wonder Keyshawn wants to teach him to get in the weight room and use his hands like he does and be strong with them to gain last-minute separation. He doesn't already do that...and it is questionable at best whether he'll learn to do that even with Keyshawn teaching him.

You ask me Ginn, Beck and Satele vs. Quinn, Jarrett and Kalil? I'll take the former, every time.

Now, change that to Ginn, Beck and Satele vs. Quinn, Steve Smith and Kalil?

THAT is a tough question.
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How much faster was Jerry Rice's combine 40 time than Dwayne Jarrett's?
 
jim1 said:
How much faster was Jerry Rice's combine 40 time than Dwayne Jarrett's?
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How is that relevant to the fact that Dwayne Jarrett showed in college that he couldn't get open against tight man coverage, where Jerry Rice showed that he could consistently get open against tight man coverage?

Irrelevant. Where did I say that Dwayne Jarrett won't be successful because of his 40 time?
 
ckparrothead said:
How is that relevant to the fact that Dwayne Jarrett showed in college that he couldn't get open against tight man coverage, where Jerry Rice showed that he could consistently get open against tight man coverage?

Irrelevant. Where did I say that Dwayne Jarrett won't be successful because of his 40 time?
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Well, anyway, back to my question: how do their combine 40 times compare? You seem to be keen on stats, so I would think that you would know, or at least be curious.

Speed, particularly as measured in the 40 yard dash, is irrelevant to a WR's ability to beat man coverage? Check yourself before you wreck yourself.
 
ckparrothead said:
How is that relevant to the fact that Dwayne Jarrett showed in college that he couldn't get open against tight man coverage, where Jerry Rice showed that he could consistently get open against tight man coverage?

Irrelevant. Where did I say that Dwayne Jarrett won't be successful because of his 40 time?
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CK...Whats irrelevant is those that put down a receiver who's stats are as good or better than the guy we just drafted at 9.

Jarrett appeared in all 13 games as a true freshman in 2004, started the final eight contests, and caught 55 passes for 849 yards (15.4 average) and 13 touchdowns. In 2005, he played in all 13 games with 12 starts and finished the season with 91 catches for 1,274 yards (14 average) and 16 touchdowns.

Now if thats bad...what does that make of Ginns stats?

Regardless of speed...what really matters is what you do on the field...and Jarrett did just fine.
 
Jarrett may or may not become a good NFL receiver. But Miami has wanted real speed for quite awhile now (I recall it being mentioned in the middle of last season at the very least), which Jarrett just doesn't have.

IMO, stats may not mean all that much here. Jarrett may wind up catching a dozen or more balls than Ginn. But if Ginn's speed opens up the field for the rest of the offense, then his contributions may be all that more significant.
 
PhinGeneral said:
Jarrett may or may not become a good NFL receiver. But Miami has wanted real speed for quite awhile now (I recall it being mentioned in the middle of last season at the very least), which Jarrett just doesn't have.

IMO, stats may not mean all that much here. Jarrett may wind up catching a dozen or more balls than Ginn. But if Ginn's speed opens up the field for the rest of the offense, then his contributions may be all that more significant.
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Duper..a second round pick, Clayton a 8th round pick...Warfield the best Dolphin receiver period...was traded for a first round pick...and his stats are out of site...and he was a receiver...not a returner trying to become a receiver.

Read up on Warfield...a guy who had world class speed and was a true receiver from day one;

In his 13 NFL seasons, Warfield caught 427 passes for 8,565 yards, giving him an amazing 20.1 yards per catch average, and scored 85 touchdowns. He added another 204 yards on 22 rushing attempts.
In his rookie season 1964, he caught 52 receptions (his best season for receptions) for 920 yards and 9 touchdowns as the Browns won the NFL Championship.
In 1968 he caught 50 receptions and for the only time in his career, gained over 1,000 yards in receiving (1,067 yards) and scored 12 touchdowns as the Browns reached the NFL Championship for the third time in the 1960s.
For most of Warfield's tenure in Miami the Dolphins ran an offense which stressed running the ball. Even so, Warfield was a major threat on any given play. For example, even though he only caught 28 passes during the 1973 NFL season, 11 of those receptions were touchdown catches, with four coming in the first half of the regular season finale. Three years earlier when he arrived in Miami, he caught only 28 passes but he averaged 25.1 yards per catch. Warfield was used more as a potential threat during his time with the Dolphins and probably Would have posted better numbers with a more pass-oriented team.

And let me remind you all that in those days...you could just about tackle a receiver...now you can't look at them in the wrong way.
 
fishypete said:
Duper..a second round pick, Clayton a 8th round pick...Warfield the best Dolphin receiver period...was traded for a first round pick...and his stats are out of site...and he was a receiver...not a returner trying to become a receiver.
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That's where I think you're letting perception rule the day. He may not be polished, but he's only been a receiver for a short time, and he probably wasn't asked to be all that complete. He still has plenty of upside in that department, and you still get a dynamic kick returner while he learns on the job.
 
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