Bob McGinn: "Olivier Vernon might be the best value pick in the entire draft
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LOL @ you for saying something you know very little about.
Annd
You did LOL @ wrong. I did it right...so LOL @ you.
He got paid to pay in college. By a booster. I said he did something wrong. Accepting money from a booster is wrong.
So please, enlighten me about how I'm commenting on something I know "very little on" when I hit the nail on the head, again? Also, if you are genuinely trying to correct someone's forum "l337" speak in some type of un-ironic grammatical sense then you really should get a life. I know it hurts you deep down that a young kid did something wrong while representing the school which you so proudly cheer but grow up and take facts for what they are, facts.
I mean, good lord, you're a MODERATOR here? If there's even been proof that you can pay for titles I suppose that's it.
JCane - I took his joke as just that, a joke, not a legitimate allegation that the University of Miami was actually paying him. I can understand if you and others took him seriously but regardless, he was punished for a reason.
his fat A_ _ should have stayed in shape because his profession is football, didn't he know that the season was about to start?
Why did you waste so much time typing all that when you could of simply typed "I'm angry".
keller377
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Titans fan here. Starks was a very good player in the 4-3 in Tennessee but never got much publicity.
fininpsl
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If somebody buys you a dinner do you declare that when you do your income taxes??? According to Nevin Shapiro himself, the only benefits Vernon recieved himself were dinners, and time at his mansion, and in his VIP box. Even Shapiro doesn't allege that Vernon took money from him, so what gifts should we be expecting Vernon to pay taxes on???? He was (and should have been) suspended, but he was a kid, and what he personally recieved was nominal. Now Nevin DID give $1000 to Vernon's highschool booster program, but again even Shapiro himself didn't say Vernon knew about it. And Shapiro is doing everything he can to try and drag the UM program through the mud.
fininpsl
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ckparrothead
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The more I watch Vernon the more enigmatic he is. Better than his stats indicate, yet something missing. Still, his skills will be welcome on the football field. One of the few players in this Draft that showed the ability to dip under the pads of a blocker and come back to the quarterback.
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Vernon did something wrong and paid the price. UM haters should just move on .
As far as football skills I watched every game he played in and I'm glad we drafted him. #35 was always in the back field of the other team. Lots of tackles for losses. Not nearly as quick as a Wake but very disruptive and a good tackler. His sack totals were just average but he had a ton of QB hurries.
I think we drafted a good player with tons of upside potential and his minor college violation should be forgotten.
As far as football skills I watched every game he played in and I'm glad we drafted him. #35 was always in the back field of the other team. Lots of tackles for losses. Not nearly as quick as a Wake but very disruptive and a good tackler. His sack totals were just average but he had a ton of QB hurries.
I think we drafted a good player with tons of upside potential and his minor college violation should be forgotten.
ckparrothead
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If you really tallied the pressures and hurries and the TFLs (which are actually tallied) there's still a lack of production issue in Olivier Vernon's game.
Something Jeff Ireland said about him caught my attention because I knew exactly what he was talking about. He said about Vernon that "we have to trust our eyes". The bottom line is even if you expand the definitions of "production" out to include TFLs, hurries, hits, etc...there's still a lack of production issue with Olivier Vernon. But you use your eyes to see what core skills he's putting on display, because you know that college production and NFL production are two different things due to different sets of circumstances and different coaching.
From a core skills standpoint, Olivier Vernon is hellishly strong for his size, knocks a lot of players backward, and consistently gets off his blocks to make a play on the ball. He does not have have Cameron Wake's nuclear take-off. In fact too often he had a hitch of lost balance in his take-off that slowed him down, and he needs to work on this until he's perfected it. He has about the same take-off that Quinton Coples does, except Coples does it at 6'6" and 280 lbs. I'm not trying to knock Vernon by comparing him to Coples, I was one of the few that actually liked the way Coples got off the ball and liked his speed for getting the outside shoulder in his edge rush. What Vernon does have that Coples lacked and that most guys in this Draft lacked, is the ability to consistently get narrow, get under the outside shoulder of the blocker, dig in and come back to the quarterback. Not a common skill. I think Nick Perry showed it against Jon Martin, Bruce Irvin could do it, and then there's Olivier Vernon. A year ago, Chris Carter was a guy I felt that was very underrated, and he could also do this, but he hasn't made an impact yet in the NFL so it's not always an indicator of pro success. But if you're a smaller player, then in order to be a pass rusher I think you really must have this skill. Jason Worilds, another guy I felt was underrated, he had that ability and he's been much more successful.
Comparing Vernon with a guy like Worilds, I would say he's got a lot more core strength. He should be a better run defender. They have similar resilience and motor, but because Vernon is stronger he's in more position to recover and make plays. Vernon has the same ability to dip his shoulders and come back to the quarterback as Worilds. But he's not as explosive, either in his hand strength/punch or in his movements. I think there's a different mentality between the two, where Vernon is more comfortable with brute force while Worilds is more focused on speed and explosiveness, getting the jump on a blocker and forcing that blocker to labor to try and catch up. Vernon is more of hands guy, always wanting to make contact with his hands so that he can shed blockers that way. He needs to learn to use his feet better as weapons in pass rush.
Something Jeff Ireland said about him caught my attention because I knew exactly what he was talking about. He said about Vernon that "we have to trust our eyes". The bottom line is even if you expand the definitions of "production" out to include TFLs, hurries, hits, etc...there's still a lack of production issue with Olivier Vernon. But you use your eyes to see what core skills he's putting on display, because you know that college production and NFL production are two different things due to different sets of circumstances and different coaching.
From a core skills standpoint, Olivier Vernon is hellishly strong for his size, knocks a lot of players backward, and consistently gets off his blocks to make a play on the ball. He does not have have Cameron Wake's nuclear take-off. In fact too often he had a hitch of lost balance in his take-off that slowed him down, and he needs to work on this until he's perfected it. He has about the same take-off that Quinton Coples does, except Coples does it at 6'6" and 280 lbs. I'm not trying to knock Vernon by comparing him to Coples, I was one of the few that actually liked the way Coples got off the ball and liked his speed for getting the outside shoulder in his edge rush. What Vernon does have that Coples lacked and that most guys in this Draft lacked, is the ability to consistently get narrow, get under the outside shoulder of the blocker, dig in and come back to the quarterback. Not a common skill. I think Nick Perry showed it against Jon Martin, Bruce Irvin could do it, and then there's Olivier Vernon. A year ago, Chris Carter was a guy I felt that was very underrated, and he could also do this, but he hasn't made an impact yet in the NFL so it's not always an indicator of pro success. But if you're a smaller player, then in order to be a pass rusher I think you really must have this skill. Jason Worilds, another guy I felt was underrated, he had that ability and he's been much more successful.
Comparing Vernon with a guy like Worilds, I would say he's got a lot more core strength. He should be a better run defender. They have similar resilience and motor, but because Vernon is stronger he's in more position to recover and make plays. Vernon has the same ability to dip his shoulders and come back to the quarterback as Worilds. But he's not as explosive, either in his hand strength/punch or in his movements. I think there's a different mentality between the two, where Vernon is more comfortable with brute force while Worilds is more focused on speed and explosiveness, getting the jump on a blocker and forcing that blocker to labor to try and catch up. Vernon is more of hands guy, always wanting to make contact with his hands so that he can shed blockers that way. He needs to learn to use his feet better as weapons in pass rush.
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Your indepth analysis is usually right on CK. My comments are from strictly watching his games. Seemed to manhandle much larger players and get in position to make play. Your comments on core and hand strength make sence. Lets hope he gets coached up to the next level and turns into a good player.
MiamiMuss
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I dont disagree I love Vernon BUT this isnt a matter of coaching or schemes or who he plays with across the line...This is a matter of him wanting to be a Very good player or just some guy Miami drafted in the 3rd round.
Hes got alot of Skills you want but its a matter of him applying and using them correctly.
ckparrothead
Premium Member
I never sensed a "want to" problem with Olivier Vernon, ever. On the football field, he clearly wants to be a dominant football player. He wants to get his hands on his blocker and either drive them and dominate with his gifted strength, or toss them aside and shed them. He wants it just as badly in the 4th quarter as the 1st quarter.
I can't speak to his work ethic off the field but it's hard for me to imagine a guy that shows that kind of "want to" factor on the field, being that unusually strong for his size, and slacking in the gym off the field. I very much doubt that's the issue.
The issue is whether he knows how to be dominant, not whether he wants it or is willing to work hard to be dominant. Does he know how? The coaching he's been receiving is a serious question mark. If that's not the problem, then his instincts/intelligence are probably the issue.
I can't speak to his work ethic off the field but it's hard for me to imagine a guy that shows that kind of "want to" factor on the field, being that unusually strong for his size, and slacking in the gym off the field. I very much doubt that's the issue.
The issue is whether he knows how to be dominant, not whether he wants it or is willing to work hard to be dominant. Does he know how? The coaching he's been receiving is a serious question mark. If that's not the problem, then his instincts/intelligence are probably the issue.
The kid has tremendous talent. Anyone with eyeballs can see it.
The problem with Vernon, like every other Miami kid, is the coaching he received. Shannon couldn't coach dick and a lot of kids suffered as a result. Once the Shapiro allegations came out during the offseason, Vernon had pretty much mailed it in. Suspended six games and then have to play catch up in a new defense under D'Onofrio...it's a lot to overcome.
I think it's a great pick but again, I don't think we got proper value for him. I still believe that we could have gotten Vernon in the fourth.