Can't wait for Spielman to get fired already..........

[MDFINFAN]

Lets hope and Pray thats the NY JETS!! :roflmao: :

St. Nick, what players did you not like in the last draft? If NY gets him, they would a leg up on us. They already do well in drafts, add Speilman, and that's one of the best player talent scout staff in the league.

 

[MDFINFAN]

Why are you dissing St. Nicks football knowledge when the dudes right... Yes, Rick Mirer played 3 horrendously bad games for Chicago but that only came after Wanny and his side kick Rick traded Chicago's 11th pick in the 1997 draft for the bum. Let me say this again.... Wanny and Rick traded the 11th pick in the 1997 draft for a guy who played just 3 games for the Bears.

AND on top of that, the two seasons that Rick was the Director of Pro Personnel for the Bears they went back to back 4-12. Oh I know, Rick's the teflon boy. Heeee did a greatttttt job.

I didn't see rick's name in that article, but I did see that Wanny choose Mirer, Wanny was running personnel, personnel people give a coach what he asks for, Wanny's requirements were obviously bad. Saban has already praised Rick's prepared evaluations of players and saids he likes the way the info was given. Now what we should see is, if Saban's eye for talent is as good as ppl think, is that we should pick up better players. Wanny often went against Rick's choices and thus some of the areas on the field aren't covered as adequately as they should be. But it's kind of crazy when we discuss this..we often talk about all the talent on the team, then we blast Wanny and co. for lack of personnel skills. :shakeno: when you look at this team..everyone thinks Chambers is a player, McMicheal, R. williams, D. Lee, Booker, Boston, D. thomson, S. knight, Seau, Moore, J. Williams, Poole, Howard, Hadnot, James, New kick returner, Pope, Chester, agudeuaye (sp), St. Clair, Bua, Sage and AJ. these are all Wanny and Speilman players. Not that bad. If Speilman could have gotten Woody and Tait, and ricky returned this year, we might have been a playoff team.

 

[firewannstedt]

Depended on then overruled?! LOL:roflmao:


So, you're saying Wanny might actually be a good coach?!


Prove it. I showed you an example of a draft report whereby a choice was given. That is how draft's go. There are choices given and decisions to be made. Dave was in charge of making those decisions and proved he cannot be a personnel decision maker.


For someone who would make a website to fire his teams headcoach, you certainly don't keep in the loop about subjects that should concern you. I honestly can't believe you have not even heard about those articles. The sun sentinel articles have to be paid for if they're older than 2 weeks. But here is a clip I found on a post concerning the topic at hand:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/...n13,0,7244966.column?coll=sfla-dolphins-front

'Huizenga rightfully holds cards no one else does. He no doubt debriefed Spielman and Wannstedt on who made the Ricky Williams trade (Spielman), who made the final call to draft failed cornerback Jamar Fletcher (Wannstedt) and who picked linebacker Eddie Moore this past draft (Wannstedt) instead of receiver Anquan Boldin (which Spielman wanted to do).'

Also, here's the Herald report:

"Concerns about a lack of change in philosophy are silenced by the fact Spielman has disagreed with some of Wannstedt's past picks. And he told Huizenga as much.A Dolphins source familiar with the GM interview process confirms that Spielman showed Huizenga documentation that his grade for Florida State receiver Anquan Boldin was higher than for Moore. And Spielman's grade on Fletcher was the lowest among those grading the since-traded cornerback."


Here's another article:

"But the bigger questions with Wannstedt, the ones that open the door today for him to go, have been in picking players and ranking roster priorities. It started with Jay Fiedler in the first offseason and - even with great additions like Ricky Williams and Chris Chambers - haunted him through the final draft when a draft-day debate with personnel chief Rick Spielman ended with the pick of linebacker Eddie Moore over receiver Anquan Boldin."

I suppose the balls in your court now?:cooldude: The thing that blows me away?

"And Spielman's grade on Fletcher was the lowest among those grading the since-traded cornerback"

Now how did Wannstedt interpret Rick's information as Fletcher being a good pick when Spielman had him rated the lowest? Think about that. Dave looked at the report, probably saw Fletchers #'s and said "Ohh, we need this guy!". Rick comes back and says "No, he's not the guy we're looking for, I'm telling you I would like to grab Brees.". Dave says, "No, we need defense, that's how championships are won, on defense. I want Fletcher. End of argument.". But you keep on believing what you want to believe even in the face of facts.


Who are you? You know Ron Wolf endorsed Feeley? Do you know who Ron Wolf is? Do you realize that Saban has reviewed Feeley extensively this past season and is willing to go with him as the starter next year?! Even expert draft reports were high on Feeley. They have a whole hell of a lot more credibility than you ever will. Mark my words.


Cause your argument is weak.

You say depended on then overruled?! LOL

And what are you basing this on? Wan's and Rick were together for 6 drafts. Rick was his Personel Director for 5 of the drafts and GM for one. That's probably close to what, 40 players that were drafted while Rick and Dave worked together.

And who the hell wrote this quote? 'Huizenga rightfully holds cards no one else does. He no doubt debriefed Spielman and Wannstedt on who made the Ricky Williams trade (Spielman), who made the final call to draft failed cornerback Jamar Fletcher (Wannstedt) and who picked linebacker Eddie Moore this past draft (Wannstedt) instead of receiver Anquan Boldin (which Spielman wanted to do).'

Your link doesn't get me anywhere....

So a comment from a secret source that said that Rick wanted Anquan Boldin
over Moore is your proof that Rick was overruled on a constant basis? You're kidding right. How the hell does the writer know what Wayne H. did in a debriefing? I take these types of hearsay articles and throw them right out the window.

Yeah...I can see Rick running to Wayne behind Daves back whining about Dave... Give me an ffing break. So...we've got from your sources what, 3 players that Wanny supposedly chose over Ricks' objections? And you keep shouting that Rick was continuosly overruled by Dave. Come on man, you can do better than that.

LOL...So Rick Spielman made the Ricky trade... Dude..you crack me up. First off, RW wanted to come here...second, my 10 year old could have made that trade... I googled my *** off and it sure looked like Wanny was involved heavily in that trade.

Wow! Ron Wolf endorsed Feeley...LOL... Here's another guy he endorsed!
http://espn.go.com/chrismortensen/s/2002/0113/1310972.html

Now please answer me this... Would you agree that Rick Spielman was Wanny's right hand man since 1997? If not, why not? I'll say it again. Rick Spielman was Wanny's player personel guy from 1997 until just last season where he became the GM. Who would you think would be in charge of putting ttogether player profiles, potential draft choice charts, backgrounds etc? It would have to be Rick wouldn't it? I place a great majority of blame at Dave Wannsted's doorstep.... But I also place a great deal of blame and Rick's as well. They were side by side since 97, and they built teams that suck in many ways.

Oh.... as far as the guy with the "owned" sign up above. Perhaps you can run for cheerleader of the year next season..

later. I'll be back after Saban releases our boy Rick.

 

[Eshlemon]

50 percent??? 40 percent? no...more like 29 percent. But you know what... You're right... Saban may teach Spielman how to do it right and the guy might turn out to have some value. My reasoning for jumping into this debate is because some here are saying that the dudes been all that the last 8 years with the Bears and the Phins when the record clearly shows that he has not been uhhh all that. I keep reading here for every great move that Spielman wanted to make, Wanny overturned Rick decision... Bull.... I see no evidence of that except for rumor and innuendo.

AND what about the decisions that weren't overturned? A number 2 for a 3rd string QB? Vernon Carey at the 1st pick.

Looks...this has been a good debate.... and you're right that it is a bit irrelevant because Nick's got the bull by the horns and he clearly calls the shots. So thanks guys for the back and fourth and Go Phins!

Bob

Your still wrong about your stats. Do the math, 15/28 (54%) of draft picks from the last 4 years on the roster. The "only 29 percent on roster from the last 4 drafts" is meaningless when judging how succesful a front office is at evaluating talent in the draft. For instance, if given a 100 picks and I get 25 from the last 4 drafts on roster, how good is a 25% success rate in evaluating players? Would be nice to have the 100 picks, but ain't gonna happen.
Love to have the Pats 21/34 succesfull draft picks (60%) the last 4 years. But if we had our rate of success with the additional picks...18/34 of our picks would be on roster. IMO, Wanny being the final say for 3 years could easily cost us an average of 1 player per year. Putting our draft scouting and player evaluation% on par with the Pats, the same system Saban helped develop and will use. Granted your argument about starters (5 for us, 10 for Pats) is very good. But again, I feel the difference is the Pats had 6 extra picks (3 first day) and we had Wanny.

And like you said, great debate but it's all up to Saban now.

 

[korl68]

I didn't see rick's name in that article, but I did see that Wanny choose Mirer, Wanny was running personnel, personnel people give a coach what he asks for, Wanny's requirements were obviously bad. Saban has already praised Rick's prepared evaluations of players and saids he likes the way the info was given. Now what we should see is, if Saban's eye for talent is as good as ppl think, is that we should pick up better players. Wanny often went against Rick's choices and thus some of the areas on the field aren't covered as adequately as they should be. But it's kind of crazy when we discuss this..we often talk about all the talent on the team, then we blast Wanny and co. for lack of personnel skills. :shakeno: when you look at this team..everyone thinks Chambers is a player, McMicheal, R. williams, D. Lee, Booker, Boston, D. thomson, S. knight, Seau, Moore, J. Williams, Poole, Howard, Hadnot, James, New kick returner, Pope, Chester, agudeuaye (sp), St. Clair, Bua, Sage and AJ. these are all Wanny and Speilman players. Not that bad. If Speilman could have gotten Woody and Tait, and ricky returned this year, we might have been a playoff team.

The two things that consistently split this forum is Rick and AJ.



IF you love them you REALLY LOVE THEM IF you HATE them you really hate them.



IMHO Rick maybe a good talent evaluator but he was not ready to be THE MAN.



IMHO AJ has potential and MAY turn into a GOOD QB I just did not see enough from him to galvanize my support for him being our "future".



If that is a crime I am guilty of thinking it.

 

[Eshlemon]

Here's a link:
http://www.bearshistory.com/seasons/1997.html

And how is this tied to Rick? The article states after the Mirer trade and other blunders the head personnel man, Rod Graves, was fired by the Bears. If RS was as resposible, why wasn't he fired? Maybe Chicago did fire him later when they brought in the new guy from KC, I don't know. Either way, RS was not the man in charge, Graves was.

 

[Shawn-l]

You say depended on then overruled?! LOL

And what are you basing this on?

This is getting annoying. THE CREDIBLE ARTICLES THAT I POSTED!!! DO A GOOGLE SEARCH YOURSELF, IT'S ALL OVER THE INTERNET!

And who the hell wrote this quote? 'Huizenga rightfully holds cards no one else does. He no doubt debriefed Spielman and Wannstedt on who made the Ricky Williams trade (Spielman), who made the final call to draft failed cornerback Jamar Fletcher (Wannstedt) and who picked linebacker Eddie Moore this past draft (Wannstedt) instead of receiver Anquan Boldin (which Spielman wanted to do).'

:shakeno: If you would have clicked the "source" of the link and saw that it was an older post and read my comment that after 2 weeks the Sun Sentinel charges for articles you would have understood "why" the article is not found. Did you even read the thread? Eh, don't bother.

So a comment from a secret source that said that Rick wanted Anquan Boldin
over Moore is your proof that Rick was overruled on a constant basis? You're kidding right. How the hell does the writer know what Wayne H. did in a debriefing? I take these types of hearsay articles and throw them right out the window.

A secret source? Armando Salguero (whom is still employed mind you) from "The Miami Herald" wrote the article and stated that the information came from a "Dolphins" source familiar with the GM interview process. If it wasn't legit in a popular newspaper such as the Herald, don't you think it would've been contested and corrected? He can be fired for that type of misinformation.

Yeah...I can see Rick running to Wayne behind Daves back whining about Dave... Give me an ffing break.

Unbelievable. Truly unbelievable. You do know that Rick was interviewing for the GM position don't you? You do understand that he had to answer to certain criticism and differentiate himself. Why wouldn't he talk about the conflict? 1) It supports him in a positive way and 2) It probably pissed him off that Dave was making him look bad due to Dave's asinine decisions. Of course, I'm sure none of that makes ANY ffing sense to you.

So...we've got from your sources what, 3 players that Wanny supposedly chose over Ricks' objections? And you keep shouting that Rick was continuosly overruled by Dave. Come on man, you can do better than that.

Where did I explicitely say he continously overruled Rick? I'm sure he didn't contest Dave's agreement on McMichael or Chambers or Olin Kreutz or Marty Booker.

LOL...So Rick Spielman made the Ricky trade... Dude..you crack me up. First off, RW wanted to come here...second, my 10 year old could have made that trade..

First off, I didn't say that. David Hyde did from the Sun Sentinel. New Orleans had doubts Ricky would be good as well as the rest of the league. At the time, I don't specifically recall anyone else knocking on New Orleans door for him. What happened when he came to Miami as a doubtful talent? He only took the rushing title with a mediocre Oline.

Wow! Ron Wolf endorsed Feeley...LOL... Here's another guy he endorsed!
http://espn.go.com/chrismortensen/s/2002/0113/1310972.html

His talent is in evaluating QB's, I've never heard that he made a name for himself as a coach evaluator. But thanks for reaching.:shakeno:

Now please answer me this... Would you agree that Rick Spielman was Wanny's right hand man since 1997? If not, why not? I'll say it again. Rick Spielman was Wanny's player personel guy from 1997 until just last season where he became the GM. Who would you think would be in charge of putting ttogether player profiles, potential draft choice charts, backgrounds etc? It would have to be Rick wouldn't it?

Yes, I agree Rick was the personnel guy who gathered information on players for Dave Wannstedt. Let me say that again, the personnel guy who "gathered information" on players for Dave Wannstedt. The same exact Rick whom well-respected Nick Saban just stated was very pleased in his work at gathering information on players. IT IS HOW THAT INFORMATION IS DECIFERED AND USED THAT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYTHING ELSE! THIS IS WHAT YOU CLEARLY CANNOT COMPREHEND!

As several others have stated, will you give Rick credit when Saban makes good personnel decisions based on Rick's information?

later. I'll be back after Saban releases our boy Rick.

Run away if you'd like. We'll be here.

 

[St. Nick]

:0wned:

Is this what its all about for you guys!!? That is the most imature response I've seen yet. It also proves what its all about to you and why no matter how many links your given, how much proof is layed at your feet.............you all will just not ADMIT that Rick Speilman is a 3rd rate hack becuase that would mean you Lost. Thats not what its about for me and I think FireDave would much rather have had some good Football to watch instead of having to voice his disgust in a Internet forum...............

FACT: Rick Speilman and Dave Wanastedt have a LONG history together that spans 2 Clubs.

FACT: Both were once proud Clubs and they failed miserably with both of them at the helm.

You guys know it but just won't admit it...........Your response above proves that as well.

 

[St. Nick]

Run away if you'd like. We'll be here.

Don't see us going anywhere............but we do have lives off this forum and we can't respond to every little childlike whim you all may have.

 

[firewannstedt]

Nah I'm not running... Again you diminish the role of a Player personel Director for the sake of propping up Spielman. Armando Salguero the writer states that he heard from some dude that Rick threw Wanny under the bus... yeah right.

The vetting of Spielman for GM was an absolute sham, almost as much a sham as the Marino hire. Your trust in the Phin management during this weird episode is giving me quite a chuckle. Do you really think there was a legitimate interview? Ha Ha

Look...here's the diff in our argument... You're happy that the right hand man of the guy who ran our franchise into the ground is still on the Phin Payroll while I'm pissed that he wasn't whacked the day Wanny resigned.

You're attempt to turn a turd into a rose has been quite laughable the last couple of days and when Saban does cut your boy Rick loose, I'll be laughing my *** off.....

 

[Agua]

while I'm pissed that he wasn't whacked the day Wanny resigned.

Which sums up the entirety of the factual basis of your argument.

 

[MDFINFAN]

The two things that consistently split this forum is Rick and AJ.



IF you love them you REALLY LOVE THEM IF you HATE them you really hate them.



IMHO Rick maybe a good talent evaluator but he was not ready to be THE MAN.



IMHO AJ has potential and MAY turn into a GOOD QB I just did not see enough from him to galvanize my support for him being our "future".



If that is a crime I am guilty of thinking it.

I'm not putting down anyone here for their thoughts. I was presenting my own thoughts on the subject. I just liked the draft we had last year..I like the fact that speilman tried to upgrade the O. I like having Boston, Booker, Hadnot, Poole, Bua, Pope, Howard, Atkins, Carey, and AJ. I thought AJ played like he was scared to get yanked like Jay when Wanny was here. He played like he was the man when Bates said he was the starter. Having the coaches confidence goes a long ways when a person is on the field concentrating on beating an opponent and not trying to be safe to keep his coach from yanking him. AJ reminded me a little of Bret Farve in Farve first year with the Packers, it wasn't pretty, but he got the experience and you see where Bret is today. AJ had to start somewhere. Now I think we will benefit from Bate's experiment.

 

[Eshlemon]

Is this what its all about for you guys!!? That is the most imature response I've seen yet. It also proves what its all about to you and why no matter how many links your given, how much proof is layed at your feet.............you all will just not ADMIT that Rick Speilman is a 3rd rate hack becuase that would mean you Lost. Thats not what its about for me and I think FireDave would much rather have had some good Football to watch instead of having to voice his disgust in a Internet forum...............

FACT: Rick Speilman and Dave Wanastedt have a LONG history together that spans 2 Clubs.

FACT: Both were once proud Clubs and they failed miserably with both of them at the helm.

You guys know it but just won't admit it...........Your response above proves that as well.

St Nick, linking one guys bad response to everyone who goes against your opinion in a debate is wrong. Like linking a bad coach with the final say in making decisions to all employees associated with him.

As I stated before, if the only draft class that RS had complete control over turns out to be as poor as the previous three, I have no problem admitting I'm wrong.
Going by last years draft which I'm high on and the fact Wanny was in control from 2001-2003 and didn't use RS's draft evaluations correctly. I don't have any reason to come to the conclusion that RS is horrible other than guilt by association with Wanny.

Hope my opinion is right and your's is wrong not out of spite but because I want the Fins to win. If RS is a third rate hack and Saban's impressed by the evaluations provided, we're in for a long 5 years.

 

[St. Nick]

St Nick, linking one guys bad response to everyone who goes against your opinion in a debate is wrong. Like linking a bad coach with the final say in making decisions to all employees associated with him.

As I stated before, if the only draft class that RS had complete control over turns out to be as poor as the previous three, I have no problem admitting I'm wrong.
Going by last years draft which I'm high on and the fact Wanny was in control from 2001-2003 and didn't use RS's draft evaluations correctly. I don't have any reason to come to the conclusion that RS is horrible other than guilt by association with Wanny.

Hope my opinion is right and your's is wrong not out of spite but because I want the Fins to win. If RS is a third rate hack and Saban's impressed by the evaluations provided, we're in for a long 5 years.

Glad you were so happy with the draft. It did us alot of good didn't it? Barely a Starter out of the bunch, many future prospects at best. a 4-12 season. You can use percentages, stats..........whatever. Bottom line is The Team of Wanny and Rick ran 2 organizations into the ground. Speilman won't last past April and then this Team can finally put the last 4 yrs behind us and move on to bigger and better things and a bright new future.

 

[St. Nick]

Hey I didn't know Rick Speilman had his own website:

http://www.pathguy.com/flattop.htm


:laugh: :mocool:



As for other flattop men, the haircut seens to say, "I work hard and play hard. I'm a survivor. I am self-sufficient. I live intensely."

:roflmao: