Chain of command | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Chain of command

fishfanmiami

fishfanmiami

Let's go Dolphins
Administrator
Super Donator
Club Member
Joined
Feb 29, 2008
Messages
60,200
Reaction score
158,567
When did it change ? In the proud history of the Miami Dolphins EVERY head caoch has had final say on football matters. Shula , Johnson , Wanny ,Sabin , even Cam a first year coach had final say on football matters including personal. They all had someone to scout , negotiate contracts , set the draft board up , keep an eye on the cap. Bean counter stuff. Ireland stuff. He has somehow wrestle control of the team first from Tony and now from Philbin. HE reports to Ross. The head coach reports to him. I'm not saying Jeff is a good or bad GM. The results are mixed.I am just questioning the logic of having an accountant as top dog instead of a football guy like Shula and Johnson and so on. Fisher would have none of it. Cowher or Gruden report to Jeff ? NEVER
Now Ireland may go on and have a fantastic draft but that's the last I want to see of him.
He's not the guy we want as the face of the Dolphins. Get back behind the curtain and let the new coach run the team.
Just my opinion. Thoughts ?
 
fishfanmiami said:
When did it change ? In the proud history of the Miami Dolphins EVERY head caoch has had finally say on football matters. Shula , Johnson , Wanny ,Sabin , even Cam a first year coach had final say on football matters including personal. They all had someone to scout , negotiate contracts , set the draft board up , keep an eye on the cap. Bean counter stuff. Ireland stuff. He has somehow wrestle control of the team first from Tony and now from Philbin. HE reports to Ross. The head coach reports to him. I'm not saying Jeff is a good or bad GM. The results are mixed.I am just questioning the logic of having an accountant as top dog instead of a football guy like Shula and Johnson and so on. Fisher would have none of it. Cowher or Gruden report to Jeff ? NEVER
Now Ireland may go on and have a fantastic draft but that's the last I want to see of him.
He's not the guy we want as the face of the Dolphins. Get back behind the curtain and let the new coach run the team.
Just my opinion. Thoughts ?
Click to expand...

1 winning season and three losing seasons i dont see the results as mixed. I think it needs to be a partnership but I cant blame Fisher for not wanting to work for Ireland
 
fishfanmiami said:
When did it change ? In the proud history of the Miami Dolphins EVERY head caoch has had finally say on football matters. Shula , Johnson , Wanny ,Sabin , even Cam a first year coach had final say on football matters including personal. They all had someone to scout , negotiate contracts , set the draft board up , keep an eye on the cap. Bean counter stuff. Ireland stuff. He has somehow wrestle control of the team first from Tony and now from Philbin. HE reports to Ross. The head coach reports to him. I'm not saying Jeff is a good or bad GM. The results are mixed.I am just questioning the logic of having an accountant as top dog instead of a football guy like Shula and Johnson and so on. Fisher would have none of it. Cowher or Gruden report to Jeff ? NEVER
Now Ireland may go on and have a fantastic draft but that's the last I want to see of him.
He's not the guy we want as the face of the Dolphins. Get back behind the curtain and let the new coach run the team.
Just my opinion. Thoughts ?
Click to expand...
I'm constantly wondering how you guys know who pulls the strings. Where do you know this from?

I agree 100% with you, the head coach should be the one who has final say on all player matters but how do you know that Philbin is not that guy but Ireland is?
 
Spiff is spot on - how do we as fans know what is truely going on? So much of our opinion is based on what we believe is happening and what other fans suggest. The rest of it comes from the reporters who will have more insight but are not necessarily accurate (refer to free agent stories, mock drafts, etc).

At the end of the day it has to be a partnership between the Coach and GM. It makes sense for the Coach to be the face of the team and the ultimate decision maker. But he can't do it alone and the best results would surely come from a joint effort.

Maybe Ireland is getting more of the spotlight because Philbin is just starting out and possibly Philbin wants it that way so he can concentrate on more important things (like deciding which pieces he wants for the team). Next offseason we may see more evidence of a change in control. Let's hope that is the case.

But above all else, let's start winning again.
 
It's only mixed feelings on this message board about Ireland. I don't know if it's genuine or if it's just because we have the means to type our opinions anonymously. Word on the street is no one likes Ireland. And it boils down to not sniffing the playoffs in awhile.
 
MOST coaches realize they have enough on their plate and dont want or need all the extra gm/scout/ draft responsabilities.

and i am one who likes the coach being coach, running shcemes and on the field football stuff ONLY!

you mentioned DON SHULA. don was not in charge of ANYTHING but on the field football for MOST of his nfl career. he had great front office people and scouting that brought him all those great players both with the colts and finz. johny unitas, duper, clayton, marino, griese, czonk, aj duhe, merc, the killer b's, all the "no name defense guys" crash jensen, duriel harris, etc.......

men like joe thomas, bobby bethard, george young, etc.. all were key to bringing those ingredients together for dons magnificant cake!!!

when don got power hungry, the dolphins started their slide. dons last 8 years were disaterous and had we not had marino, things would have tanked much sooner. don was NOT a talent evaluator. he didnt have time! coaches dont. very few have done it with any real success, jj, mike holmgren, etc.... from eric kumerow to billy milner, don made mistake after mistake on both players and staff. he kept TOM OLIVADOTTI for 10 years, a man whos defenses were at the bottom of the nfl for most of marinos career. he was dons shulas good friend and they went to the same catholic mass EVERY MORNING. their should have been someone else not emotionaly and personaly envolved to pull that plug YEARS before.

like it or not, and i love COACH shula, gm shula was a huge failure and has a major part in this teams demise. he started the ball rolling.

some coaches have absolutely no business around the gm table or draft room for ANY reason [see dave wanstedt]. absolutely wayne huizengas worst move keeping wanny and then handing him the whole show.

philbin was not that desperate. he had a great gig and on the fast track for an h/c gig. he was just fine coming in and being in control of FOOTBALL, like he is right now.

most coaches, the VAST majority have no biz in the front office. lending info and suggestions to the gm on the weeknesses of the team and player positions that need up graded or strengthened with back ups are important and most gm's confir with the football staff, offense and defense and hc before and sometimes during the draft. this is the best way of running a team.

i question jeff irelands draft choices, the way he runs his draft and over all decision making. but adding on gm responsabilities should absolutely be seperate from coaching. having both positions has ruined a lot of good coaches from burn out and not having enough time to be great at either gm or coaching.

i am sure if a person sat down and had beers with coach phil, he would be just fine and doodly with this set up. his opinion of ireland, yet to be determined!!
 
I agree 100% with you, the head coach should be the one who has final say on all player matters but how do you know that Philbin is not that guy but Ireland is?
Click to expand...


it was all CLEARLY layed out by ross in one of the first weeks pressers of philbins hire. which coincided with irelands first season of full gm [non parcells] responsabilities. their were many questions leading up to BOTH moves that needed to be defined for the median and fans. not many payed attention!

IRELAND is in charge of the front office staff, the draft, free agency and head/assistant coaches hiring and firing.

PHILBIN coaches the team, is in charge of the schemes. game day management of the games and directing staff and players. he is in charge of all football meetings and practices.

i have given a zillion posts in regard to so many saying, "what is up with philbin, why did he do that, why didnt he sign this guy, why isnt he going after that guy", etc..... already questioning if he is already a failure in threads over things he has NO control over! things that are not even his job!!

all philbin is doing now is watching finz film of the last 3 years and decorating his office and new home. we have NOTHING to critique philbin on untill around the end of october when he is actually doing HIS JOB!!

like it or not, thats the pecking order. i question every move and draft and free agency ireland has been part of so far and am all for a change. i am all for the gm and coaching responsabilities being seperate, but, i want the right gm in place. a trusted, respected, productive gm.

ireland is NOT it!!

and this is what is worrying me.
 
I don't think coaches, most coaches, have final say on personnel and they shouldn't for the most part. GMs and the scouting staff spend the entire year watching players, going to games, interviewing coaches, watching film...on both college prospects and potential NFL free agents. They start building portfolios on players from their freshman year in some cases. Coaches don't have the hours to put in and evaluate all of the eligible draft picks AND coach...it's just not possible. Coaches put in 12-15 hours a day game planning, coaching, getting the team ready every week.

Coaches have a lot of input into who they would like to get drafted but final say goes to the GM. Just today I heard that Andy Reid was ready to walk away from the Eagles if he didn't get more control over personnel decisions so that tells me that this isn't just the Dolphins with this type of structure and I also heard Brian Billick saying the same thing on NFLN. He said something like he would tell his GM who he wanted and the GM would say some other player was better and it was up to the GM to make the decision and override the coach because they spent the entire year evaluating players. That's not to say Billick didn't get guys he wanted...he did get Chris Redman and some other players.
 
The NFL has been trending towards GM's having more power for some time now. Fewer and fewer head coaches have as much power as they did in the past. I doubt you will find many people who feel Wansteadt should have had any where near as much personnel power as he did.

That said, the Dolphin's team and personnel hasn't been the problem around here IMO. The team has been a notoriously slow starting team with Sparano and the labour issues just agravated that fact. Also, Henne just wasn't getting it done. The decision to focus so strongly on the wildcat may have been part of the reason why he never seemed to reach his potential, but maybe it was coaching or just a bad team fit. If Moore had started last season MANY people around here would have been surprised at how talented our roster really is.

I think Philbin has more say about things than many people seem to believe. Unfortunately Ross is the 4,000 pound wrench in the machine. It is HIS machine, but every time he has ANY say about personnel it immediately skews the whole Head Coach, GM dynamic.
 
Very few coaches can do both jobs. In fact, the only guy on the OP's list that was successful at it was Shula and even he faltered at the end of his career.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't every coach have final say in personnel until the end of Wanstead's reign? They gave Speilman that power if I remember correctly. Before then, Shula and Johnson had final personnell say. Saban took back full control when he came and then it was given back to a GM when he left (I think it was Mueller). Then Parcells came in and was given complete control with Ireland running the front office and Sparano running the team. When Parcells, left, it seems as though they stayed two separate entities with Sparano not able to over-ride Ireland in the front office and Ireland not able to over-ride Sparano on the field. It seems as though that is continuing with Philbin, with Ross having final say now.
 
I understand the GM is very important and head coach 's sometime don't have time for such matters or are not good at it.
Here's the point i'm trying to make.Name one other NFL team where the GM is above the head coach and has final say and don't include coachs who do both themselves. Of course they listen to the GM's advice and are suppose to work in unison but who has final say.
I think the GM should work for the coach. When we think of Baltimore who's the boss ? Haubough. And before him Billick even though Ozzie Newsome built the team for both. You may hear his name during the draft process then he fades to the backgound. Give me some examples where the GM is the top dog. I only know the names of a few of the top GM's For the most part they stay in the background and work for the coach. That's the way I like it.
 
Ross does not help much. I agree with this article in the Herald. "Stephen Ross is more blunt instrument than tactician"​
 
Let's say Tannehill is there at #8 and Philbin says i want him but Ireland thinks he has second round talent and all his charts and grades do not support this move. Who desides ? Who has final say between Ireland and Philbin ? I know Ross has FINAL say but as it stands Jeff runs the team. I want the guy incharge to have COACH in front of his name. Just my 2 cents.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom