Difficulty transitioning to 4-3 Defense?

[ckparrothead]

Well I was wrong.

Thanks for correcting me. Still though some of his best years were in a 4-3 scheme.

Yeah but that's probably not as relevant as the role he played last year in our 3-4 defense in place of a departing Channing Crowder. His role this year will be more of a continuance off that than reaching back into his history and playing like he did the last time he played a 4-3. The last time he played in a 4-3 his role on the outside was pretty different from what you find in a Mike.

From the practice reports, Dansby has been given a lot of license to play aggressively to the backfield and blitz at his pleasure. Omar cited it as something Ryan Tannehill is really having trouble with, a lot of plays Dansby is knifing in and sacking him.

In light of those reports I'm actually not all that worried about Karlos' transition to the new defense. I keep hearing conflicting reports about Burnett/Misi and which one is playing Will and which one is playing Sam. That concerns me more right now.

The lack of true defensive ends concerns me most of all. Right behind that is the safety position. Then the outside linebackers. Then the nickel corner spot because I think the Dolphins are playing Richard Marshall out of position.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

I suspect we'll be more vulnerable against the run. Just instinct, not much based on personnel, other than the smallish DEs, like ck mentioned.

Switching to a 4-3 often means weakness against the run in the early stages, and if Philbin insists on more of a pass oriented attack the overall physical nature of the team figures to suffer.

I'd envision certain stretches like Green Bay experienced late last year against Kansas City, the perimeters collapsed including total inability to get the ball back in the late going. The good news is not many teams prioritize rushing like that, even if it's available.

Vernon may have held up well against the run in college but a young rookie with a rather small frame for DE doesn't figure to be as stout early in his pro career. I've seen him become frustrated, and cheat one way or the other.

 

[ChrisJNelson]

I suspect we'll be more vulnerable against the run. Just instinct, not much based on personnel, other than the smallish DEs, like ck mentioned.

Switching to a 4-3 often means weakness against the run in the early stages, and if Philbin insists on more of a pass oriented attack the overall physical nature of the team figures to suffer.

I'd envision certain stretches like Green Bay experienced late last year against Kansas City, the perimeters collapsed including total inability to get the ball back in the late going. The good news is not many teams prioritize rushing like that, even if it's available.

Vernon may have held up well against the run in college but a young rookie with a rather small frame for DE doesn't figure to be as stout early in his pro career. I've seen him become frustrated, and cheat one way or the other.

The Packers run a 3-4, so not sure what you're referring to about the KC game. Also, our defensive ends are not small for the scheme. Not at all.

 

[ckparrothead]

I suspect we'll be more vulnerable against the run. Just instinct, not much based on personnel, other than the smallish DEs, like ck mentioned.

Switching to a 4-3 often means weakness against the run in the early stages, and if Philbin insists on more of a pass oriented attack the overall physical nature of the team figures to suffer.

I'd envision certain stretches like Green Bay experienced late last year against Kansas City, the perimeters collapsed including total inability to get the ball back in the late going. The good news is not many teams prioritize rushing like that, even if it's available.

Vernon may have held up well against the run in college but a young rookie with a rather small frame for DE doesn't figure to be as stout early in his pro career. I've seen him become frustrated, and cheat one way or the other.

The run is definitely where the Dolphins are likely to be weakest until they make the transition. New coverage scheme for the safeties, could mean some clunkiness on run/pass keys. There will be fewer players in the box, on average (a prediction).

Undersized defensive ends...no doubt in my mind Miami has undersized defensive ends. None whatsoever. However it has a curious effect when you really play it out. Due to the lack of size the Dolphins are being forced to oversize their defensive end situation. Specifically, they've got to shift Jared Odrick out to left end. This has the opposite effect. You mentioned Green Bay having its perimeters collapsed. I think the ball can slip outside of a Jared Odrick, who is a 6'5" and 305 lbs, 5.0 speed defensive tackle trying to play end. And when the ball slips to the perimeter, you'd better hope that's the side Vontae is on because Sean isn't as physical, and they'll likely both be in man coverage anyway, and the safeties may not be reading their keys quickly enough to run the alley in support. You also better hope Koa Misi reads the play right and doesn't get lost in trash, and that Karlos Dansby didn't just knife into the backifeld only to have the ball slip to the outside where he can't make a play.

When forced to go into nickel, I do think Olivier Vernon holds his ground against the run game as an end, despite the size. But is he going to get pass rush as a rookie? That's what has me more worried. I think you can count on Starks to get penetration on 3rd down, but will he be tired from full time 1st/2nd down work? In reality, Odrick should be the 3rd man rotating with Soliai and Starks on 1st/2nd down, so that between Starks and Odrick you have fresh, high-energy bodies to plug in the interior on pass rush downs. I would also want to reduce Vernon to the interior against a guard those downs and have him play like a Wallace Gilberry or Pernell McPhee. But that would necessitate another outside pass rusher which Miami lacks.

 

[ChrisJNelson]

The run is definitely where the Dolphins are likely to be weakest until they make the transition. New coverage scheme for the safeties, could mean some clunkiness on run/pass keys. There will be fewer players in the box, on average (a prediction).

Undersized defensive ends...no doubt in my mind Miami has undersized defensive ends. None whatsoever. However it has a curious effect when you really play it out. Due to the lack of size the Dolphins are being forced to oversize their defensive end situation. Specifically, they've got to shift Jared Odrick out to left end. This has the opposite effect. You mentioned Green Bay having its perimeters collapsed. I think the ball can slip outside of a Jared Odrick, who is a 6'5" and 305 lbs, 5.0 speed defensive tackle trying to play end. And when the ball slips to the perimeter, you'd better hope that's the side Vontae is on because Sean isn't as physical, and they'll likely both be in man coverage anyway, and the safeties may not be reading their keys quickly enough to run the alley in support. You also better hope Koa Misi reads the play right and doesn't get lost in trash, and that Karlos Dansby didn't just knife into the backifeld only to have the ball slip to the outside where he can't make a play.

When forced to go into nickel, I do think Olivier Vernon holds his ground against the run game as an end, despite the size. But is he going to get pass rush as a rookie? That's what has me more worried. I think you can count on Starks to get penetration on 3rd down, but will he be tired from full time 1st/2nd down work? In reality, Odrick should be the 3rd man rotating with Soliai and Starks on 1st/2nd down, so that between Starks and Odrick you have fresh, high-energy bodies to plug in the interior on pass rush downs. I would also want to reduce Vernon to the interior against a guard those downs and have him play like a Wallace Gilberry or Pernell McPhee. But that would necessitate another outside pass rusher which Miami lacks.

How are the defensive ends undersized? They're all prototypical 4-3 end size aside from Odrick, who isn't a true end.

 

[ckparrothead]

Cameron Wake is 6026 and 250 lbs. Olivier Vernon overstuffed himself at the Combine (hence slow 40 time) so he could measure 6021 and 261 lbs. He's probably in the 250's for playing weight. Jamaal Westerman is 6021 and 255 lbs. Are you honestly under the impression that is normal size for defensive ends in a 4-3 defense?

Hell just take a look at the Bills. Here are the DEs of note (based on money, playing time) for that team:

Mario Williams - 6070, 283
Mark Anderson - 6042, 255
Chris Kelsay - 6043, 260
Spencer Johnson - 6027, 305
Alex Carrington - 6052, 305
Shawn Merriman - 6043, 264
Kyle Moore - 6050, 272

Their shortest guy is taller than our tallest guy. Even if you toss out Carrington and Johnson as being the same body types as Jared Odrick, they average 6050 and 268 lbs. Our guys average 6023 and 255 lbs. You don't see a difference there?

I've never heard it put forward that 6023 and 255 lbs is "prototypical" for a 4-3 defensive end. That's a first.

 

[ChrisJNelson]

Cameron Wake is 6026 and 250 lbs. Olivier Vernon overstuffed himself at the Combine (hence slow 40 time) so he could measure 6021 and 261 lbs. He's probably in the 250's for playing weight. Jamaal Westerman is 6021 and 255 lbs. Are you honestly under the impression that is normal size for defensive ends in a 4-3 defense?

Hell just take a look at the Bills. Here are the DEs of note (based on money, playing time) for that team:

Mario Williams - 6070, 283
Mark Anderson - 6042, 255
Chris Kelsay - 6043, 260
Spencer Johnson - 6027, 305
Alex Carrington - 6052, 305
Shawn Merriman - 6043, 264
Kyle Moore - 6050, 272

Their shortest guy is taller than our tallest guy. Even if you toss out Carrington and Johnson as being the same body types as Jared Odrick, they average 6050 and 268 lbs. Our guys average 6023 and 255 lbs. You don't see a difference there?

Carrington and Johnson are 4-3 defensive tackles, so that's irrelevant. 4-3 defensive ends typically hover between 250-270, with outliers like Robert Mathis on one end and Mario Williams on the other, but our guys fit right in there.

 

[ckparrothead]

Carrington and Johnson are 4-3 defensive tackles, so that's irrelevant.

If you say so. They played Defensive End in 2011, though.

4-3 defensive ends typically hover between 250-270, with outliers like Robert Mathis on one end and Mario Williams on the other, but our guys fit right in there.

Like I said, first time I've ever heard of 6023 and 255 lbs being "prototypical" of 4-3 defensive ends.

Oh and by the way you say Robert Mathis is an outlier on the low side...he's the same height as Olivier Vernon and Jamaal Westerman, FYI. They're all right at 6'2". Vernon and Westerman are perhaps an eighth of an inch taller, if that.

 

[ChrisJNelson]

If you say so. They played Defensive End in 2011, though.



Like I said, first time I've ever heard of 6023 and 255 lbs being "prototypical" of 4-3 defensive ends.

Oh and by the way you say Robert Mathis is an outlier on the low side...he's the same height as Olivier Vernon and Jamaal Westerman, FYI. They're all right at 6'2". Vernon and Westerman are perhaps an eighth of an inch taller, if that.

Carrington and Johnson played end in 2011 because the Bills ran the 3-4. They're switching to the 4-3. And you claim to be a draft guru...you should know how basic schemes work and what teams run.

I'm speaking more about weight than height anyway, because the discussion was regarding being able to hold up against the run. Being 6-2 vs 6-3 isn't going to affect your run defense. But being 250+ is fine for 4-3 ends.

 

[ckparrothead]

Carrington and Johnson played end in 2011 because the Bills ran the 3-4. They're switching to the 4-3. And you claim to be a draft guru...you should know how basic schemes work and what teams run.

Whatever island you live on is a little bit behind the times. The Buffalo Bills already switched to the 4-3. While it's true they played a mix of 3-4 and 4-3 in 2010 (more 40 fronts than 30 fronts), they moved to more of a full time 4-3 in 2011. Merriman rushed from an up position part of the time when he actually played during the first five weeks, but most of the time he had his hand in the dirt in a 40 front. Then Merriman got hurt and the Bills played 40 fronts almost exclusively. Sure, there was an occasional 30 front, but there were also occasion 0 fronts where they had nobody down on the line, and I doubt anyone is going to label them a 0-7 defense. Try actually watching a Bills game or two before you go on the lecture circuit talking about what positions Carrington and Johnson played.

I'm speaking more about weight than height anyway, because the discussion was regarding being able to hold up against the run. Being 6-2 vs 6-3 isn't going to affect your run defense. But being 250+ is fine for 4-3 ends.

First off, frame absolutely has an impact on the ability to defend the run. Second, size for a defensive end isn't just about stopping the run. Third, even the average weight at 255 lbs is still lighter than prototype for a 4-3 defensive end. Just look at the 4-3 where Kevin Coyle hails from in Cincinnati. Carlos Dunlap is 6'6" and 289 lbs. Jamaal Anderson is 6'6" and 272 lbs. Robert Geathers is 6'3" and 280 lbs. Derrick Harvey is 6'5" and 268 lbs. Michael Johnson is 6'7" and 267 lbs. Last year, Frostee Rucker was 6'3" and 263 lbs, and Jonathan Fanene was 6'4" and 291 lbs. Between the lot of them that's an average of 276 lbs.

 

[JerryD]

Of MUCH GREATER Concern to me & hardly mentioned ... is why Philbin never invited Nolan to stay? ... at least for a year or 2.

The only thing Miami did vaguely decent was Nolan's Defense ... with D personell only decent, but NOT great.

Now we got a NEW D Guy & a NEW D Scheme ... I predict a NEW D Problem.

To me, Philbin's first strike/bad move was getting rid of Nolan ... since Philbin's an O guy

Folks are all positive over Philbin because Tony was such a pathetic loser. But Philbin's new & has alot to prove & the majority of new coaches don't make it. Philbin is making HUGE CHANGES across the board ... don't think this is going to be pretty the first year!!

Boil all that down & to me 3-4 & 4-3 is a bunch of drivel phooey ... we've got REAL PROBLEMS!! ... and the .500 Mendoza Line is a distant mirage!!

 

[Coach_Rob]

after hearing reports about dansby i feel alot better, but now the concern is the misi/guyton thing. anyone know if they are playing will or sam?

 

[Elliott 1]

Whatever island you live on is a little bit behind the times. The Buffalo Bills already switched to the 4-3. While it's true they played a mix of 3-4 and 4-3 in 2010 (more 40 fronts than 30 fronts), they moved to more of a full time 4-3 in 2011. Merriman rushed from an up position part of the time when he actually played during the first five weeks, but most of the time he had his hand in the dirt in a 40 front. Then Merriman got hurt and the Bills played 40 fronts almost exclusively. Sure, there was an occasional 30 front, but there were also occasion 0 fronts where they had nobody down on the line, and I doubt anyone is going to label them a 0-7 defense. Try actually watching a Bills game or two before you go on the lecture circuit talking about what positions Carrington and Johnson played.



First off, frame absolutely has an impact on the ability to defend the run. Second, size for a defensive end isn't just about stopping the run. Third, even the average weight at 255 lbs is still lighter than prototype for a 4-3 defensive end. Just look at the 4-3 where Kevin Coyle hails from in Cincinnati. Carlos Dunlap is 6'6" and 289 lbs. Jamaal Anderson is 6'6" and 272 lbs. Robert Geathers is 6'3" and 280 lbs. Derrick Harvey is 6'5" and 268 lbs. Michael Johnson is 6'7" and 267 lbs. Last year, Frostee Rucker was 6'3" and 263 lbs, and Jonathan Fanene was 6'4" and 291 lbs. Between the lot of them that's an average of 276 lbs.

I think there is a very good chance that Michael Johnson will be a Dolphin in 2013. I wanted to trade for him two years ago. I think he is going to continue to improve. I just hope he waits one more year to breakout.

 

[Geforce]

Of MUCH GREATER Concern to me & hardly mentioned ... is why Philbin never invited Nolan to stay? ... at least for a year or 2.

The only thing Miami did vaguely decent was Nolan's Defense ... with D personell only decent, but NOT great.

Now we got a NEW D Guy & a NEW D Scheme ... I predict a NEW D Problem.

To me, Philbin's first strike/bad move was getting rid of Nolan ... since Philbin's an O guy

I don't think Philbin had a chance to make a decision on whether or not to keep Nolan.

Nolan signed with Atlanta (January 17th) before Philbin became head coach of the Dolphins (January 20th).

 

[ckparrothead]

I think there is a very good chance that Michael Johnson will be a Dolphin in 2013. I wanted to trade for him two years ago. I think he is going to continue to improve. I just hope he waits one more year to breakout.

I remember when Johnson was the BLESTO preseason #1 overall prospect. It seemed like the crowd was about to revolt on that one, I think most people knew he didn't deserve that. I took up a position in his favor, but not for #1 overall, or necessarily even a top 15 or 20 pick, but it just seemed like the reaction against him following the unwarranted #1 overall ranking was so violent I had to remind people this is still not a bad prospect he just has serious issues with stamina. I thought maybe 2nd round pick, something like that. He ended up in the 3rd, and looking at his career...he probably deserved the 3rd round. He's not even been the situational pass rusher I thought, although I do wonder if he'd be more effective if you reduced his snaps and made sure that when he comes into the game he's totally fresh and 100% balls to the wall, like with the guy Seattle just drafted Bruce Irvin.