Dolphins abandoning tax-relief plan in favor of event payments

[dlockz]

I would love to know the salary of the superintendent of schools….I bet he does not want to lose Ross' revenue.

The superintendent of schools makes 275,000 dollars.
Low level NFL coaches make more than this as do low level players

Miami Dade is the 4th largest school district in US. Clark County is the fifth and pays their superintendent 400,000.

 

[Daytona Fin]

Slightly off topic, but relevant to the renovations:



http://www.ajc.com/news/sports/football/at-stadium-groundbreaking-blank-lobbies-for-a-supe/nfzg3/

The NFL gives favorable treatment to the cities that build new stadiums. Minnesota just won the 2018 Superbowl. I suspect Indy would get the nod over Miami if they were going with an older stadium, though it doesnt take a fortune teller to predict that Atlanta will get the nod. Maybe, just maybe, we could be in realistic play for 2020...but then again, other teams are knee deep in stadium negotiations.

Yeah. I think there is no chance we get the 2020 Super Bowl, unless Ross erects a statue of Goodell holding a bag of cash next to Shula along with his proposed renovations, which I don't think the NFL is interested in. I see a lot of negotiating going on but nothing being done. I'm not sure what Ross' end game is here, he seems adamant about the renovations but with all this flip flopping on his proposals leads me to think he may scrap them and build a new stadium if he can find the right situation.

 

[Zounds]

The only problem I have with our stadium is the distance the seats are from the field, and that issue is being addressed in the stadium upgrades. Other than that, our stadium is comparable to any other outdoor grass stadiums in the NFL.

 

[Vaark]

stadium?"

Slightly off topic, but relevant to the renovations:



http://www.ajc.com/news/sports/football/at-stadium-groundbreaking-blank-lobbies-for-a-supe/nfzg3/
Those are two interesting examples you're using. If they're models for the desired courting of Superbowls having wide spread public benefit, are you now arguing that Miami Dade and the state of Florida should just tell Ross "forget these half measures you're willing to underwrite because you're being stonewalled. Instead, let's use Atlanta and Minnesota as inspiration for taxpayers funding their fair share of a genuine new SB-worthy stadium" ???

Minnesota is preparing to sell nearly $500 million in bonds to cover the state’s share of the Vikings stadium facility.

It’s looking for financial institutions to buy the bonds for the stadium construction, which is scheduled to start in November.

The $498 million in loans will cover the State’s and the Minneapolis’ share of stadium construction.

The Vikings are putting up the rest of the $477 million for the project, which will total $975 million.

Taxpayers will be on the hook for $20 million to $30 million a year just to pay back the interest on the stadium loan.

That money was supposed to come from electronic pull tabs, which failed to produce the income necessary.

Now, there are two new taxes to fund the facility: A one day tax last July 1 on all of the cigarettes sitting on store shelves and warehouses, and a new tax on some of the out-of-state profits of Minnesota businesses.

Although the Vikings $975 million facility is among the largest public works projects in state history
http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2013/09/23/reality-check-cost-of-the-new-vikings-stadium/,

So if the Atlanta city council isn’t going to do the math, let’s give it a shot ourselves:

Previously established costs include $200 million in up-front construction costs, $30 million in construction sales tax rebates, and $24 million in land costs, for a total of $254 million.
Once the first $200 million in public stadium bonds were paid off, anything left over of the Falcons’ share of the city’s 7% hotel-motel tax — 39.3% of the tax proceeds, according to the latest MOU released Friday — “will be applied for the maintenance, operation and improvement” of the new stadium. The MOU doesn’t put a total cap on this annual subsidy, but from the chart of past hotel-motel tax collections (see page 5, and thanks to FoS reader cityzen for the link), we can see that the Falcons’ share of the hotel-motel taxes is currently about $17 million a year.
Under the MOU, the hotel-motel tax funding for the Falcons would be extended through the year 2050. Thirty-seven years’ worth of $17 million payments equals $629 million.
Normally, I’d point out that that $629 million is in nominal payments, so we’d need to calculate the present value — the same as when you figure the price of your house, you do it by calculating what you paid now, not by adding up all your mortgage payments for the next 30 years. But since the hotel-motel tax revenues have been pretty consistently going up each year, the two factors should roughly cancel each other out, so we should still be at around $600 million in present value.
The first $200 million of that $600 million comes off the top to pay for the city’s stadium bonds. Also, whereas previously some of this money was being used to pay off debt on the Georgia Dome, under the new deal the Falcons would pay off the remaining debt, which comes to around $100 million, per Forbes. So that would leave the team with $300 million worth of future excess hotel taxes to spend on pretty much whatever it felt like.
Add the $300 million to our original $254 million, and we get a total public subsidy for the project of $554 million.
http://www.fieldofschemes.com/2013/...payers-counting-hidden-subsidies-554-million/

 

[Zounds]

Instead, let's use Atlanta and Minnesota as inspiration for taxpayers funding their fair share of a genuine new SB-worthy stadium" ???[/COLOR]

Yep, both Atlanta and Minnesota used heavy public funding for those stadiums. I don't see how someone can be so against public funding, yet still be for building a new stadium.

 

[phinfan40353]

Maybe I'm just cynical and I have never really bought the "L.A. Dolphins" or any such b.s., but from a strategic vantage point this would mean the team could move easily and leave the city with a 75,000 seat above ground sink hole.

The real shrewdness is how Ross is suddenly switched roles in this matter. He went from the poor Billionaire who wanted state assistance to renovate an old dilapidated stadium that no one believed was worth the investment. To selling the same building to another government using the "value" to advertise how attractive owning it will be for the buyer.

I guess if he puts enough coat of paint on this building he can even sell them on him heading up the renovation planning they will also fund.

I see now how his made his money.

 

[dlockz]

Just because other cities foolishly spend tax payer money doesnt mean we should.
Many of these stadium deals were just political deals at their best without any regard of what taxpayers want

 

[Daytona Fin]

Just announced, Sacramento is getting a shiny new stadium

The city of Sacramento approved a financing plan making way for construction on a new $477 million arena for the Sacramento Kings franchise.

The city council voted 7-2 on the plan Tuesday.

Sacramento will be responsible for a $223 million subsidy under a new 36-year deal, with a majority of it being financed through a parking revenue bond. The city will also pay $21.9 million a year in debt service, which is going to be paid through lease payments from the Kings.

The new arena is scheduled to open in time for the 2016-17 season. The Kings moved to Sacramento in 1985 from Kansas City and have played in Sleep Train Arena for the past 26 seasons. The Kings ranked 22nd in the NBA in attendance last season, averaging 16,291 spectators per home game.

http://tracking.si.com/2014/05/21/sacramento-approves-new-kings-arena/

 

[AFCMiamiEast]

Yep, both Atlanta and Minnesota used heavy public funding for those stadiums. I don't see how someone can be so against public funding, yet still be for building a new stadium.

It's an oxymoron. Miami is not getting a new stadium worth close to $1,000,000,000 without hefty public funding. It's not realistic, and there is no precedent that says it's doable without it.

 

[phins_4_ever]

Just announced, Sacramento is getting a shiny new stadium


http://tracking.si.com/2014/05/21/sacramento-approves-new-kings-arena/

I have no problems with that. Since the Kings pay a lease fee the stadium obviously belongs to the city. Sacramento is getting something back in return. It my be tax payer funded but a return through the lease is a given. That is smart investment by the city.

AT&T Stadium (Dallas Cowboys) was also heavily funded by the city of Arlington but they are the owners. As much as Jones struts around like it is his stadium the official owner is the City of Arlington and the Cowboys are the operators. So Arlington gets a hefty return eventually as well.

In the case of the Dolphins the return to the counties is miniscule or not even existent. To tell Miami-Dade county the return in hotel revenue for a superbowl would make up for that is ridiculous. Most people stay in Ft Lauderdale and the beach area. It os much closer than south Beach. A lot of people may want to save money and stay 30 min away in Palm Beach County which also has nice beach hotels.
Plus, February is high season for us anyways. The few extra people coming to the Superbowl is not a make-it or break-it event for our hotels.

Ross owns the Dolphins and the Stadium. He makes the money either way. He gets money through ticket sales, merchandizing, catering, parking, even the lease payments of the Dolphins go to him. There is absolutely no incentive for any county to even consider giving a dime to improve the Stadium.

This is what you do as a businessman: you want to expand or improve your product you pay for it or you sweeten the deal to the county to have a chance for a return.

The Marlins deal is not the only bad deal Miami-Dade and/or City of Miami did. AA Arena is another. The Arena (Heat) is owned by Miami-Dade County. They negotiated a shared revenue deal with a minimum treshold. But the minimum treshold was never reached and the County didn't get squat so far. Now, after being successful and selling the arena out regularly Arison wants to renegotiate that deal.

I am so sick and tired of giving hand-outs to people who really don't need but just out of greed and using a the hearts of fans hostage at the same time. Talking about entitlement.

 

[Zounds]

I have no problems with that. Since the Kings pay a lease fee the stadium obviously belongs to the city. Sacramento is getting something back in return. It my be tax payer funded but a return through the lease is a given. That is smart investment by the city.

The idea that a city owned property is profitable couldn't be further from the truth. Most municipalities don't recoup the investment they made in these entertainment complexes, and are often required to use regular tax dollars or even raise local taxes - even more so than if a private owner subsidized construction of the comlpex with public money. I used to audit for the Orlando Centroplex (Amway Arena, Citrus Bowl, and Bob Carr Center) and I can tell you that they were not self-sustaining enterprises, requiring regular tax dollars to maintain continuity. Orlando had to raise its hotel tax by 1%, netting the city an additional $30/mil per year.

 

[Spesh]

Yeah. I think there is no chance we get the 2020 Super Bowl, unless Ross erects a statue of Goodell holding a bag of cash next to Shula along with his proposed renovations, which I don't think the NFL is interested in. I see a lot of negotiating going on but nothing being done. I'm not sure what Ross' end game is here, he seems adamant about the renovations but with all this flip flopping on his proposals leads me to think he may scrap them and build a new stadium if he can find the right situation.

Amusing mental image, i would not be surprised in the least if Goodell actually has a statue like that somewhere in his mansion Viktor Yanukovych style.

I dont think Ross really has an endgame other then "get the Superbowl here quickly". Ross just turned 74. Even if he wins the bid, he will be around 80 when the game is actually played. In the past his daughters have made it known they had no interest in running the team after his time is done. I strongly suspect Ross just wants the game so he can have one last blowout before calling it quits. Football has always struck me as more of a hobby for Ross than a passion. That this hobby has been more of a headache then a pleasure surely weighs on him. If he sells the team after the Superbowl he will have been an owner for over a decade, not too shabby of a run(length wise anyways).

The way Ross has handled this issue has convinced me he understands his tenure is coming to an end. Despite 3 years of fighting this issue, i havent seen Ross even approach the possibility of building a new stadium. With all the public drama that has gone on with this situation, shouldnt that have been seriously explored by now? Building a stadium just cost to much for a man who is considering cutting bait.

 

[Spesh]

Those are two interesting examples you're using. If they're models for the desired courting of Superbowls having wide spread public benefit, are you now arguing that Miami Dade and the state of Florida should just tell Ross "forget these half measures you're willing to underwrite because you're being stonewalled. Instead, let's use Atlanta and Minnesota as inspiration for taxpayers funding their fair share of a genuine new SB-worthy stadium" ???

Um, nope. I am not making the argument that Miami should copy the Falcons or Vikings stadium proposals. At no point in my post did i advocate anything at all concerning our stadium.

I stated the NFL gives favorable treatment(in this case Superbowls) to cities that give them what they want. A few months removed from a Superbowl in New York, and with 2 of the upcoming Superbowls taking place in Minnesota and San Francisco, im not even sure how that could be debated. The city of Atlanta gave into the leagues blackmail, thus the league will (more than likely anyways) fulfill their end of the arraignment.

 

[uk_dolfan]

Nope. You are not a tax payer, nor do you go to games and you have for sure no frigging clue about south Florida.

The Miami/Fort Lauderdale area is the #16 TV market in he Nation. That's easily the middle of the pack in the NFL. Unfortunately TV market numbers do not combine the West Palm Beach Market with Miami/Fort Lauderdale. The stadium is located at the Broward/Miami-Dade County Line - smack in the middle of what we call the Tri-County area (Miami-Dade, Broward County, Palm Beach County). Combine the markets and they move up a few nodges.

Just to give you an idea about numbers:
Palm Bach County is the 3rd largest county in Florida and 28th in the nation. 1.3 Million
Broward County is the 2nd largest county in Florida and 17th in the Nation. 1.7 Million
Miami-Dade is the largest county in Florida and 7th in the nation. 2.7 Million

6 million people, 1/3 of Florida's entire population. Small market? Really.
(New York City, the #1 market, has a population of 8 Million)

Why don't the Dolphins sell out? We suck. We suck for a long time.
When the Dolphins are good we sell out. When the Panthers were good they sold out. A few years back the Heat could hardly sell a game out because they sucked.

That's the nature of sports and is not limited to just the Miami Dolphins. Ask Buffalo fans how many empty seats they have these days. And they used to sell out as well.

The Dolphins also have the 7th largest stadium in the NFL and the 5th largest when you combine all expanded seating.

Instead of bargaining on the improvements for the stadium maybe Ross should field a winning team.

Let me ask you a question: why do you think Ross guaranteed a sell out every game last year considering that there were at least 10-15,000 seats empty? Because he is such a great guy? No, because he still made money. By guaranteeing a sell out the team was on TV locally and the revenue from the team being marketed on local TV exceeded his cost for buying up tickets. Now why would do that? Because we have a small market? I doubt that.

thats great you have a lot of people, that was not my point when I said small market, im talking money. The NFL is about money, the Dolphins sales and tv figures absolutely stink and have done for years, its not even about the big sellout thing, people arent even watching the team on tv and its locals who always say the next generation has little interest in the team. even in comparison to other teams who don't do any better than than the dolphin our stats are not good. Thus dead end NFL city, get all prideful if you like but the NFL is lead by money made and Miami is badly lagging in that regard. Dont shoot the messenger, if a new owner sees more money elsewhere and the Dophins dont have a stadium deal they will leave, theres a good deal on the table, if it doesn't go though, well when Ross sells in a few years... I told you so

 

[AFCMiamiEast]

thats great you have a lot of people, that was not my point when I said small market, im talking money. The NFL is about money, the Dolphins sales and tv figures absolutely stink and have done for years, its not even about the big sellout thing, people arent even watching the team on tv and its locals who always say the next generation has little interest in the team. even in comparison to other teams who don't do any better than than the dolphin our stats are not good.

Miami is top 12 in team popularity. That debunks the entire above quote, we have one of the best national/international fan bases in the league and have elite history on the team's side.