Dolphins have 'expectation of mastery' for quarterback Tua Tagovailoa

[Springveldt]

I sure hope that getting fat isn't a proxy for staying healthy.

Let's look at reality. Tua ran 2x as much early in his career. He was a shrimp in '20 as a rookie and essentially only added some strength in '21. He ran 3x per game about ~3ypc back then which is barely anything but the point is he was at his lightest and it was fine. He did however contribute 1 rushing TD every 4 games.

Was he an "injury risk" back then?

The only major injury was the broken ribs in '21 which occurred as the result of an unexpected hit in the pocket when an unblocked defender slammed him (thanks Jesse Davis!).

Under McDaniel he's run 1-2x per game for virtually nothing...and he's had 0 rushing TDs in 3 seasons. His immobility has become a bit of an issue, too, leaving him increasingly defenseless, even in the pocket.

I think you have to bite the bullet with Tua. He needs to slim down in order to be mobile because that agility should result in fewer devastating hits, not more.

Ball-carriers stay healthy by (1) out-running defenders to avoid would-be hits and (2) being careful to protect their vitals when contact is imminent. At his absolutely lightest, when running the most, Tua had no issue staying healthy. The concussions started as a result of hits in the pocket. And the concussion in '24 was a result of charging headlong into a defender which is just stupid.

I'm with @djphinfan in the sense that there is absolutely no correlation between ball-carriers getting fat and it being productive. Tua's playing 17 games in '23 had nothing to do with being fat and everything to do with avoiding contact.

WADR here--and I love you as a poster--Tua having to get fat so he's less willing to run is an utterly absurd paradigm. It's unworkable. If he's not smart enough to stay healthy, I'd prefer to have McDaniel just insert and work with a back-up. You can't have Tua diving headlong into people. He doesn't deserve the job for a single day if he can't understand that.

If indeed we're having Tua bulk up again, it's a virtual certainty to me that he's done in Miami as early as the front office can reasonably kick him to the curb.

If being healthy and mobile is bad...it's an existential problem and he needs to go.

I know getting bigger to stay healthy is absurd but what I'm saying is if that is what it takes to stop him taking stupid chances then I'm all for it. I'd love for him to be lean, strong and able to scramble every now and then for some yards, think that scramble against Arizona in his first season but I just don't trust him to not be stupid about when to run and when not to run. He still has that "I'm going to show everyone how tough I am" mentality and I doubt it is something that will ever go away, so him limiting his ability to run may end up being best for his career.

Either that or McDaniel has to drill him all offseason and the clock in his head and just throwing it away if nothing is there.

 

[danmarino7051]

Tua is a better QB when slimmer. In 2023, when fat he stayed healthy, but wore down as the season progressed. IMO, Tua has been getting bunk advice in regard to his weight. Whether he’s fat or trim, he needs to protect himself better. Last year he showed that he’s not willing to do that and I don’t believe that his weight, or lack thereof, was the reason for his injuries. His dumb choices were.

 

[lurking]

Starts to break down.

 

[danmarino7051]

Starts to break down.View attachment 191408

What? Are you replying to my post or someone else that I can’t see?

 

[Mello Yello]

I know getting bigger to stay healthy is absurd but what I'm saying is if that is what it takes to stop him taking stupid chances then I'm all for it. I'd love for him to be lean, strong and able to scramble every now and then for some yards, think that scramble against Arizona in his first season but I just don't trust him to not be stupid about when to run and when not to run. He still has that "I'm going to show everyone how tough I am" mentality and I doubt it is something that will ever go away, so him limiting his ability to run may end up being best for his career.

Either that or McDaniel has to drill him all offseason and the clock in his head and just throwing it away if nothing is there.

You may be right, IDK. Maybe there's something in Tua's head that makes him feel less mobile being 5- or 10-lbs heavier?
My concern would be that the opposite is true...a heavier, bulkier Tua might look to embrace contact.
I'd also be worried that being less able to avoid contact in the pocket (where he's had most of his issues) would be worse.

We can confidently say looking at the highlights that there is NO change in Tua's abilities throughout the '23 season when everyone claimed he was out of shape. He didn't even look that different on-screen in '23 anyhow. He did not lack agility in the pocket, nor did he decline throughout the season. Most of the "he got fat" stuff is hyperbole.

As clearly shown in the highlights, he was equally capable in Nov-Dec compared with where he was in Sep-Oct.



My question is whether he's actually a lighter and more agile guy here in '24, inspired to take off and run because he felt more mobile as a result of losing weight.

He doesn't look smaller. He just looks more willing to take off which makes me think it's less a physical change and more just being stupid. I get your point but he probably can/will be equally stupid at 5- or 10-lbs heavier.

 

[gofins60]

How many poor QBs had impressive career stats? How many top QBs had poor career stats?
Swapping TT for LJ or Hurts, would all 3 have only the same success on their new teams?
I'm not arguing TT is elite, but stats do matter. Supporting cast does matter.

I've been trying to make the point that stats can matter, but only so much. The ultimate goal of every NFL team is to make the playoffs, win playoff games, and then hopefully reach and win the Super Bowl. To do that takes a well-built, well-run solid TEAM (or a lot of luck). IOW, a top ranked QB on a team with a poor running game and defense is less likely to win a playoff game against a strong, top team than a 10th ranked QB on a team with a great running game and defense.

Yes, stats matter, but mostly in certain situations. If two teams have similar running games and defenses, then the team with the better QB would have the edge. But, that edge could be negated if the other team has smarter coaching and playcalling. IMO, the coaching and supporting cast has a lot to do with winning and losing, and Miami fans should know this. In 1984, Marino broke nearly every passing record and went to the Super Bowl, only to lose to a lesser-rated QB with a stronger overall team. After that though, Miami's defense and running game got worse, and one of the best passers ever never made it back to the Super Bowl, proving that individual stats don't mean much if you don't have a strong, well-rounded team.

And presently, injuries aside, Tua has put up some impressive stats. But, how many top teams has Miami beaten? How many playoff games have they won? In 2023, Tua had a wild year, and Miami had the (I believe) #2 ranked offense, so why didn't they at least win the Division? Individual QB stats can be nice, but it's the other parts of the team that mostly wins and loses games.

Personally, I'd prefer a team built and coached like the Super Bowl winning Eagles with a highly ranked running game, o-line, and defense with a QB rated like Hurts rather than a highly rated QB with a below-average o-line, running game, and questionable defense. The bottom line is that Tua put up big stats despite having a poor supporting cast and questionable coaching, but those stats didn't help the team win anything important. IMO, even though I'm not a Tua fan, the only way to judge him fairly is to give him a well-rounded, strong team and better game-management, and then maybe those stats might help win playoff games. But, that won't happen under Grier and McDaniel.

 

[hoops]

Lots of irrational people in here. They wouldn't know good qb mechanics if it hit them in the face. There was one dude named hoops, yes calling you out who actually stated Hurts is a top 5 passing qb in this league.

Credibility in evaluating qbs completely down the drain.

If you gonna call me out get it right. I never stated such thing about hurts.

Feel free to check my post history. Then come back and apologize.

 

[A1.]

If you gonna call me out get it right. I never stated such thing about hurts.

Feel free to check my post history. Then come back and apologize.

My money is on u ain’t getting an apology

I got a good laugh out of the post ur replying to. I’ve known hoops for a long time I know damn well he never said anything like that about hurts lol. If anything it would be close to the opposite.

 

[djphinfan]

Well, in Mannng’s away losses he had 82, 31, 35, 69, 39, and 90 passer ratings.

Have you ever watched Josh Allen in his losses in the playoffs ?

Some of the best hi level Qb’ing I’ve ever seen

Still don’t know what you’re doing or trying to prove

Tua has never reached any of that level of performance in a big game. He’s had one appearance in 6 years.

Revisit in five years and let’s see what he accomplishes, until then, there is no argument

 

[djphinfan]

I sure hope that getting fat isn't a proxy for staying healthy.

Let's look at reality. Tua ran 2x as much early in his career. He was a shrimp in '20 as a rookie and essentially only added some strength in '21. He ran 3x per game about ~3ypc back then which is barely anything but the point is he was at his lightest and it was fine. He did however contribute 1 rushing TD every 4 games.

Was he an "injury risk" back then?

The only major injury was the broken ribs in '21 which occurred as the result of an unexpected hit in the pocket when an unblocked defender slammed him (thanks Jesse Davis!).

Under McDaniel he's run 1-2x per game for virtually nothing...and he's had 0 rushing TDs in 3 seasons. His immobility has become a bit of an issue, too, leaving him increasingly defenseless, even in the pocket.

I think you have to bite the bullet with Tua. He needs to slim down in order to be mobile because that agility should result in fewer devastating hits, not more.

Ball-carriers stay healthy by (1) out-running defenders to avoid would-be hits and (2) being careful to protect their vitals when contact is imminent. At his absolutely lightest, when running the most, Tua had no issue staying healthy. The concussions started as a result of hits in the pocket. And the concussion in '24 was a result of charging headlong into a defender which is just stupid.

I'm with @djphinfan in the sense that there is absolutely no correlation between ball-carriers getting fat and it being productive. Tua's playing 17 games in '23 had nothing to do with being fat and everything to do with avoiding contact.

WADR here--and I love you as a poster--Tua having to get fat so he's less willing to run is an utterly absurd paradigm. It's unworkable. If he's not smart enough to stay healthy, I'd prefer to have McDaniel just insert and work with a back-up. You can't have Tua diving headlong into people. He doesn't deserve the job for a single day if he can't understand that.

If indeed we're having Tua bulk up again, it's a virtual certainty to me that he's done in Miami as early as the front office can reasonably kick him to the curb.

If being healthy and mobile is bad...it's an existential problem and he needs to go.

Thank you for getting it Mello.

This theory that if he gets fat and gains weight on a physique that has no business gaining weight, because the last time he was fat he played 17, is completely ignorant, flat out mind numbingly inaccurate

 

[djphinfan]

I know getting bigger to stay healthy is absurd but what I'm saying is if that is what it takes to stop him taking stupid chances then I'm all for it. I'd love for him to be lean, strong and able to scramble every now and then for some yards, think that scramble against Arizona in his first season but I just don't trust him to not be stupid about when to run and when not to run. He still has that "I'm going to show everyone how tough I am" mentality and I doubt it is something that will ever go away, so him limiting his ability to run may end up being best for his career.

Either that or McDaniel has to drill him all offseason and the clock in his head and just throwing it away if nothing is there.

Like I’ve said what did the last five games of the season where he played all 17 games look like ?

If that’s what you want at Qb, we’re all ****ed man

 

[dolpns13]

I covered this in another thread, but the Dolphins had the 3rd fewest delay of game penalties in the league last year. Up from 5th least the year prior. The “too many delay of game penalties” mantra is just a made up narrative.

How many time time outs have been wasted to circumvent trying the penalty. Don’t use the time outs and we’re more than likely one of the most DOG penalized teams..

 

[danmarino7051]

Have you ever watched Josh Allen in his losses in the playoffs ?

Some of the best hi level Qb’ing I’ve ever seen

Still don’t know what you’re doing or trying to prove

Tua has never reached any of that level of performance in a big game. He’s had one appearance in 6 years.

Revisit in five years and let’s see what he accomplishes, until then, there is no argument

The only really great game I recall Allen having but the Bills losing in the playoffs was the OT game against KC a few years back. Allen had like 4 TD passes and no INT’s. I could be leaving a game out, but in most of their losses he didn’t play particularly well.

My point is showing that away playoff games are difficult. And one appearance in 6 years? He’s only been in the league for 5 seasons and wasn’t the full time starter most of the time under Flores. And with Tua’s play, if only one person made the playoffs he’d have been there the last 3 years straight because, and even with his injuries, he’s had elite seasons.

 

[danmarino7051]

How many time time outs have been wasted to circumvent trying the penalty. Don’t use the time outs and we’re more than likely one of the most DOG penalized teams..

Yeah, I covered the TO thing, too, after someone countered with what you did.

Still wrong.

Unless you have some sort of evidence I’ve missed that the Dolphins “wasted” an abnormal amount of TO’s. That evidence should have comments and reasons from McD as to why the TO’s were taken so we can be sure they were “wasted”.

 

[JamesWsenior]

Yeah, I covered the TO thing, too, after someone countered with what you did.

Still wrong.

Unless you have some sort of evidence I’ve missed that the Dolphins “wasted” an abnormal amount of TO’s. That evidence should have comments and reasons from McD as to why the TO’s were taken so we can be sure they were “wasted”.

He is including challenges obviously