Dolphins vs. Patriots - Is It Poor Drafting, Bad Coaching, QB or ?

[Pelorus Jack]

Watching the Patriots destroy Colts (fixed) and are now heading to the AFC championship again caused me to wonder how they seem to do it year after year.
So for information only I looked at how they picked in the first round versus the Dolphins over the past ten years. Here's what I found.

Patriots first pick Dolphins first pick
(X) # in parenthesis is the teams finish in the standings
2013 #52 (1) #3 (3)
2012 #21 (1) #8 (2)
2011 #17 (1) #15 (3)
2010 #27 (1) #28 (3)
2009 #34 (1) #25 (3)
2008 #10 (2) #1 (1)
2007 #24 (1) #9 (4)
2006 #21 (1) #16 (4)
2005 #32 (1) #2 (2)
2004 #21 (1) #19 (4)

(10 yr. avg - 26th) (10 yr. avg - 13th)

Having Tom Brady is certainly a big plus factor for the Patriots.

For the Dolphins the current structural overhaul is (and was) an absolute necessity.

What are your thoughts on -
How many years of rebuilding will it take before the Dolphins can realistically expect to win the AFCE again?
Will Brady need to retire first beforehand?
Does Philbin and Tannehill really have what it takes as leaders?
Other thoughts?

 

[J. David Wannyheimer]

All of the above.

 

[Pelorus Jack]

The formatting didn't come out as typed when posted. Hope you can read it OK.

 

[datruth55]

Patriots don't draft very well. They make their hay in free agency where they seem to be the best at finding low priced free agents that fit perfectly into their system.

And the Patriots didn't destroy Denver they destroyed the Colts.

As I've said for many years while Ireland was here the players drafted were not good enough. Too many people here think this team has enough talent to compete and are finding out we don't have enough talent. The talent selected in the last couple of drafts by Ireland didn't even fit the scheme. The more I think about the last draft, 9 picks, the more I feel Ireland set us back a couple of years.

 

[roy_miami]

If Tannehill steps up a smidgen we're not that far off. What worries me more than catching the Pats is the Bills or Jets getting a QB and making the division a 3 or 4 horse race, meaning that even if we step it up a notch the division will be a total crap shoot and being in a tough division makes the wildcard less likely. The other thing to worry about is even when Brady goes off into the sunset how good is Ryan Mallett? They might have the 2 best QBs in the division for all we know.

The bottom line though is our team taking over and duplicating what the Patriots did is a pipe dream, we'll be lucky to win the division every 4 or 5 years and that'll come down to injuries and luck of the draw on the scheduling.

 

[walt]

Patriots don't draft very well. They make their hay in free agency where they seem to be the best at finding low priced free agents that fit perfectly into their system.

And the Patriots didn't destroy Denver they destroyed the Colts.

As I've said for many years while Ireland was here the players drafted were not good enough. Too many people here think this team has enough talent to compete and are finding out we don't have enough talent. The talent selected in the last couple of drafts by Ireland didn't even fit the scheme. The more I think about the last draft, 9 picks, the more I feel Ireland set us back a couple of years.

The Patriots DO draft well. In fact, virtually all of their top players today came through the draft, and none came through Free Agency. Here is my list of their top performers, including the injured:

Tom Brady, QB - drafted
Logan Mankins, G - drafted
Sebastian Vollmer, T - drafted
Julian Edelman, WR + PR - drafted
Rob Gronkowski, TE - drafted
Shane Vereen, RB - drafted
LaGarette Blount, RB - trade

Vince Wilfork, DT - drafted
Chandler Jones, DE - drafted
Jerod Mayo, LB - drafted
Brandon Spikes, LB - drafted
Aqib Talib, CB - trade
Devin McCourty, S - drafted

 

[stephins87]

If Tannehill steps up a smidgen we're not that far off. What worries me more than catching the Pats is the Bills or Jets getting a QB and making the division a 3 or 4 horse race, meaning that even if we step it up a notch the division will be a total crap shoot and being in a tough division makes the wildcard less likely. The other thing to worry about is even when Brady goes off into the sunset how good is Ryan Mallett? They might have the 2 best QBs in the division for all we know.

The bottom line though is our team taking over and duplicating what the Patriots did is a pipe dream, we'll be lucky to win the division every 4 or 5 years and that'll come down to injuries and luck of the draw on the scheduling.

Tannehill couldn't even step up vs. Thad Lewis and Geno Smith for all the marbles. I have no confidence in him leading us to division titles.

 

[foozool13]

NFL is 30% Coaching, 25% QB, and 20% drafting and 25% everything else.

 

[datruth55]

The Patriots DO draft well. In fact, virtually all of their top players today came through the draft, and none came through Free Agency. Here is my list of their top performers, including the injured:

Tom Brady, QB - drafted
Logan Mankins, G - drafted
Sebastian Vollmer, T - drafted
Julian Edelman, WR + PR - drafted
Rob Gronkowski, TE - drafted
Shane Vereen, RB - drafted
LaGarette Blount, RB - trade

Vince Wilfork, DT - drafted
Chandler Jones, DE - drafted
Jerod Mayo, LB - drafted
Brandon Spikes, LB - drafted
Aqib Talib, CB - trade
Devin McCourty, S - drafted

lol...you're going all the way back to the 2000 draft to try and prove a point.

Who else from 2000 did they draft besides Tom Brady?

2nd round (46th overall) OT Adrian Klemm...ever heard of him? He was out of the league by 2005
3rd round (76th overall) RB J.R. Redmond...out of the league by 2005 had 676 career rushing yards
4th round (126th overall) OT Greg Randall...out of the league by 2003.
5th round (141st overall) TE Dave Stachelski...who? lol....out of the league by 2001
5th round (161st overall) Jeff Marriot...not only did he not have a position when drafted he didn't even make the squad.
6th round (187th overall) CB Antwan Harris...out of the league by 2005, 1 career INT, 42 career total tackles in 6 seasons.
6th round (199th overall) QB Tom Brady...well this makes them draft geniuses
6th round (201st overall) DT David Nugent...out of the league by 2002
7th round (226th overall) Casey Tisdale...never made the squad.
7th round (239th overall) RB Patrick Pass...out of the league in 2007, 526 career rushing yards, 570 career receiving yards...was actually a productive backup player.

So out of 10 picks they hit on 1 but it was a big 1.

Point is no one has drafted more players than the Patriots in the last decade. They've made lots of trades and drafted a lot of players. Patriots have drafted 118 players from 2000-2012 and yes they've hit on a few of them...odds are pretty good when you have that many draft picks...but they've also had more busts than most teams too. FS Tavon Wilson (2012 2nd round 48th overall), DE Jake Bequette (2012 3rd round 90th overall), DB Ras-I Dowling (2011 2nd round 33rd overall), OLB Jermaine Cunningham (2010 2nd round 53rd overall), WR Taylor Price (2011 3rd round 90th overall), S Patrick Chung (2009 2nd round 34th overall), DT Ron Brace (2009 2nd round 40th overall), FS Darius Butler (2009 2nd round 41st overall), WR Brandon Tate (2009 3rd round 83rd overall), OLB Tyrone McKenzie (2009 3rd round 97th overall), CB Terrence Wheatley (2008 2nd round 62nd overall), OLB Shawn Crable (2008 3rd round 78th overall), QB Kevin O'Connell (2008 3rd round 94th overall), S Brandon Meriweather (2007 1st round 24th overall), RB Laurence Maroney (2006 1st round 21st overall), WR Chad Jackson (2006 2nd round 36th overall), TE David Thomas (2006 3rd round 86th overall), CB Ellis Hobbs (2005 3rd round 84th overall), DE Marquise Hill (2004 2nd round 63rd overall), S Guss Scott (2004 3rd round 95th overall), WR Bethel Johnson (2003 2nd round 45th overall), TE Daniel Graham (2002 1st round 21st overall), CB Brock Williams (2001 3rd round 86th overall), OT Adrian Klemm (2000 2nd round 46th overall), RB J.R. Redmond (2000 3rd round 76th overall).

These are players taken in the first 3 rounds of the draft that either were flat out busts or didn't live up to their draft status. Now tell me again how the Patriots are so good at the draft?

 

[Shouright]

1) QB, 2) top-notch coaching, and 3) a winning team culture as a function of leadership among the players, in that order. Everything else pales in comparison in my opinion.

In fact, I believe you could probably take any team with at least average-caliber play in the other areas of its roster, infuse the three variables above into it, and create a team that's competitive at a Super Bowl level year in, year out, because the coaching and the winning culture are going to maximize the quality of individual play of everyone on the roster.

There are teams with great rosters that aren't getting the maximum effort and quality from their players the Patriots are, due to their superior coaching and team culture. Exhibit A: the Detroit Lions.

 

[DuderinoN703]

Watching the Patriots destroy Denver and are now heading to the AFC championship again caused me to wonder how they seem to do it year after year.
So for information only I looked at how they picked in the first round versus the Dolphins over the past ten years. Here's what I found.

Patriots first pick Dolphins first pick
(X) # in parenthesis is the teams finish in the standings
2013 #52 (1) #3 (3)
2012 #21 (1) #8 (2)
2011 #17 (1) #15 (3)
2010 #27 (1) #28 (3)
2009 #34 (1) #25 (3)
2008 #10 (2) #1 (1)
2007 #24 (1) #9 (4)
2006 #21 (1) #16 (4)
2005 #32 (1) #2 (2)
2004 #21 (1) #19 (4)

(10 yr. avg - 26th) (10 yr. avg - 13th)

Having Tom Brady is certainly a big plus factor for the Patriots.

For the Dolphins the current structural overhaul is (and was) an absolute necessity.

What are your thoughts on -
How many years of rebuilding will it take before the Dolphins can realistically expect to win the AFCE again?
Will Brady need to retire first beforehand?
Does Philbin and Tannehill really have what it takes as leaders?
Other thoughts?

Miami isn't winning the division until Brady and Belichick are gone.

 

[artdnj]

The Pats do everything well, lose a key player, another steps up. Every player they get seems to step up their game for Big Tom or Belli, my personal opinion is that mediocrity isn't tolerated. With Brady, Bellicheat, and the front office they are damn near untouchable in the AFC East, if not the conference.

 

[Pelorus Jack]

The Pats do everything well, lose a key player, another steps up. Every player they get seems to step up their game for Big Tom or Belli, my personal opinion is that mediocrity isn't tolerated. With Brady, Bellicheat, and the front office they are damn near untouchable in the AFC East, if not the conference.

I agree with your comments. I guess that is part of my concern that I'm not sure all the actions being made will turn the team into champions. Somebody posted about Robert Kraft and what a class guy he is and perhaps that class in ownership is a key part of what has been missing with the Fins.

 

[BahamaFinFan78]

My question for the past 13 year is "Does Brady make Belichek look good or does Belichek make Brady look good or are they only compatible together?" Before Brady, Belichek did nothing. Before playing for Belichek, Brady was nothing special.

 

[Markcalius]

1. A coach with a vision.

2. A QB with the mental tools to allow the coach to execute his vision.

3. A decade of running and tweeking the system.

.....The GM-ing of the Patriots has been irrelevant to their success. Once this ship got underway, they were even able to plug in Matt Cassel for a season and win 10 games. The only talent they have on either side of the ball these last couple of games is Brady, but Belichick has managed so many games and seen so many chump coaches come and go, he can plug people in and get results.