Face Of The Franchise

Discussion in 'NFL Draft Forum' started by mwestberry, Jun 19, 2019.

  1. mwestberry

    mwestberry FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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  2. Ruckus45

    Ruckus45 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

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    If Rosen shows enough to be the guy we count our blessings that we got him for so little and have a bunch of capital to build around him in 2020.

    If he doesn't show that then the Fins probably have an awful season and will be in the market for a top QB in 2020. Good problem for a team to have.
     
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  3. BlueFin

    BlueFin Seer of Visions Finheaven VIP

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    If the lightbulb goes on for Rosen you use all that draft capital to build a team around him and get ready to compete for the playoffs in 2020.

    If at the end of 2019 you are unsure you have your guy... we draft another to compete and develop with Rosen.

    If you end up with 2 franchise QB’s? You have incredible trade capital.

    If Rosen looks good enough but not great yet? You have the option of deferring one year and loading up for the Trevor Lawrence 2021 draft and giving Rosen a 2nd year to explode!
     
  4. 39wildman

    39wildman A True Fan

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    Rosen really need 3 yr to see what he can do but w 2020,2021 qb class. I think we will find qb for future. we are heading into right direction
     
  5. CoryMatthews

    CoryMatthews Well-Known Member

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    They aren’t drafting a qb in 2020. And wingding provides no actual true football intellect.
     
  6. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    I don't think the Dolphins even regard Josh Rosen as the QB of the future. They just wanted to add a legit talent to the room and the trade is emblematic of a new valuation schema with respect to the QB position. Plus Chad O'Shea was going nuts about him so they threw him the bone.

    The plan right now, and I know this, is still to get a guy in 2020.
     
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  7. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    As for the Jake Fromm article...I really like Jake Fromm. I have him 3rd for next year but still see him as better than Haskins.
     
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  8. The Ghost

    The Ghost Stamos Donator

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    Thankfully, these questions all get answered on the field.
     
  9. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Agree with this. Well, I have Fromm as #2 but in the same tier as Love, and I think Love is more likely to be a Top 10 pick (for me) but also more likely to fall out of 1st RD consideration, so they're basically at the same spot for different reasons (ceiling vs floor). Fromm would have to regress for me to like him less than Haskins.
     
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  10. TedSlimmJr

    TedSlimmJr Hartselle Tigers (15-0) 5-A State Champ

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    It's interesting that you both view Fromm as being better than Haskins. I see it just the opposite.

    I think they're very similar and reflect the same strengths and weaknesses. Both are hyper accurate - both tend to be much less comfortable forced off their mark and outside of structure. Difference being Haskins was less experienced and more productive - his team lived and died with his performance. He carried his team despite the talent level around them being about equal also.

    Fromm on the other hand, has yet to really show me the offense can run through him and be effective when the luxury of relying on a dominant running game isn't there. If you put 'em both in the same situation, I'd probably rather face Fromm than Haskins.
     
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  11. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    I definitely understand that view. I view them both as guys who can run an offense efficiently but not guys who will raise the level of surrounding talent/coaching at the NFL level. Because of the importance of the position, I probably need a better way to denote it, but to this point, I've called that type 1st RD/not Top 10 (since teams picking early are typically bad). I give Fromm the edge, because he's been efficient for multiple seasons - three if he plays well in 2019 - and I think he's a better athlete, which isn't saying much. Overall, they're close enough that I'd put money on whichever landed in the better spot. Unfortunately for Haskins, it's hard to do much worse than Washington.
     
  12. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    I'm just not going to hold it against Jake Fromm for not often doing what he's not often asked to do. He does what he is asked to do better than nearly everyone out there. If I had to go strictly with QBs that are leaned on to power their offense exclusively with their arm then I'd be stuck drafting from Mike Leach every year.

    Based on what I've seen of Jake Fromm's skill set, I don't think he's incapable of carrying the team when asked. This is what they said about Tom Brady in New England prior to 2007, and what they said about Russell Wilson prior to 2016 or thereabouts, but the bottom line is those players brought a certain performance standard with them to how they operated any given play. I think Jake Fromm does that as well. And I don't think it changes wildly just because the usage goes up a tick. All you can do is manage what you can control.

    I'm sure people could bring up individual games where things didn't work out well for Jake Fromm. Most of them would be 2017 when he was a true freshman leading his team to the National Championship Game. Could probably bring up the LSU game this year. Sometimes, sh-t happens. Didn't see a ton to pick at in that LSU game anyway, and I thought the Bama and Texas games rang a little more true in his favor than the LSU game did as a critique.

    Based on how Georgia structures its offense, it's not coincidental when poorer offense seems to be connected with higher QB usage, nor is it coincidental when the defense is defending something well they're probably also defending other things well, or when the offense is screwing up in one way and then screwing up in other ways. You manage what is in your power to manage, play the game that's in front of you.

    What he generally does is go out there, make the right reads, and throw timely strikes. He does it with great pro velocity, something I think people tend to overlook in his game. I think his feel for taking off is underrated. He's going to steal base more often than people imagine at the next level, in part because nobody's ever going to install a game plan that accounts for it. That's the mark of a good pro as well, always being better at things the defense decides you're not great at.

    And that probably describes Jake Fromm's game, in a more general way. A defense is going to look at him and decide what they have to defend against because it's what he's good at, and what they in turn have to leave open because that's not who he is, whether it be something related to his arm, his ability to handle pressure, or his willingness and/or ability to steal base when you're caught in man and guys get out of their lanes. But he'll kill you for that. He's got a great all-around skill set, a beautiful head on his shoulders, and a LOT of patience.

    I think he's going to make a fine pro and I'm more confident about that than I was about Dwayne Haskins. I've got three quarterbacks in this next draft that if I take, I would believe and have confidence about it that I got the barrel on the ball. And then I've got a toolsy guy that I'd be cautiously optimistic about, hoping that things 'click'. That's about where I was on Dwayne Haskins.
     
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  13. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    I should amend that. Dwayne Haskins wasn't anywhere near as toolsy as Justin Herbert is. Just a similar overall feeling of cautious optimism/hope as prospects.

    There's something to be said about the fact that by all superficial measures Justin Herbert belongs as a marble statue adorning a Roman Coliseum. They don't build them like this very often and in a sense you can't blame scouts for slavering when they see him.
     
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  14. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Haskins was much better than Herbert, though. Herbert started 2018 as my clear #1 but regressed instead of progressing, and Haskins was excellent. It's just that Haskins's limitations are obvious. To this point, I'd say that Herbert's limitations are also obvious, but they're between his ears. Good news = there's some chance to improve; bad news = they're more damming if he can't (significantly) improve.

    From the perspective of a Miami fan, and because I want to see these guys do well, I'm rooting for Herbert to put it together, but I worry that his mental profile is too similar to Tannehill. Smart guy, amiable, but doesn't process info quickly enough, and doesn't have the type of urgency you want from your QB.
     
  15. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    That could be. But from a pure tools perspective, Justin Herbert makes Ryan Tannehill look like Ryan Finley.

    I liken Herbert to Carson Wentz as a prospect. I felt like there was a lot more risk in Carson Wentz than people commonly pretended. There's a lot of risk in Justin Herbert as well.

    But the bottom line is the bottom line:
    • He can throw and spin the f-ck out of a football, absolutely rare arm talent.
    • He's built like a Greek god at around 6'5".
    • He moves *really* well at that size.
    • He's already (with one year to go) showing intrinsic feel for letting gravity pull him to the soft spots in the pocket.
    • He's an Academic All-American, known by those around the team as a wordsmith, a communicator.
    • He shows legit commitment to the weight room and keeping himself in shape (ahem, unlike Haskins).
    • His CAREER passer rating at the NCAA would've ranked in the Top 20 last year, and his BEST year ranked #4.
    Technical nits about Herbert's game (and there are several important ones) have to be seen within that broader context, IMO.

    I feel like I've done enough damage to him just by ranking him #4 behind Tua Tagovailoa, Jordan Love, and Jake Fromm. But I'll take any of the four and feel better about who I got than any non-Murray QB from 2019.
     
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