For all of those liking Van der Esch

Discussion in 'NFL Draft Forum' started by Stills&Landry, Dec 29, 2017.

  1. Stills&Landry

    Stills&Landry A True Fan

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    He's kiko 2.0. And i don't even mean that as a knock. He's just the same type of player. We need a premier man cover weakside lb. One who can keep up speed wise and drop his hips with Charles Clay. One who can beat Gronk to an underthrown pass. From base in our scheme we have no safety to line up on TEs since Jones is in deep zone. We need that type of lb. Van der esch is instinctual has good length and lateral agility but thats exactly who kiko is. Kiko aint as bad as people make him out to be. He just isnt a cover 2 man cover weakside lb. Jenkins was that for us. We slid kiko from MLB to weakside cause we let Jenkins walk and brought two SOLBs in Timmons and McMillan. We need Jenkins in his prime type wheels at Will at the very least. I dont see any other than Roquan Smith, Jerome Baker, Skai Moore, Kendall Joseph and maybe Tegray Scales in that neighborhood. Maybe if we converted a safety. Id see the 'other' Edmunds brother, Terrelle, as a viable convert.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  2. outlawd2u

    outlawd2u Pro Bowler

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    Roquan Smith is Exactly what this defense needs imo.
     
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  3. nick1

    nick1 I am Groot Moderator Finheaven VIP Donator

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    McMillan is a Mike. Best Mike in the draft just wait until you see
     
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  4. mmikel30

    mmikel30 Starter

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    I watched some cut-ups ...maybe in round 3 or 4 nothing special there.
     
  5. SF Dolphin Fan

    SF Dolphin Fan Seasoned Veteran

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    You just wonder if the front office sees it the same way. What is so obvious to the fans doesn't seem to be so obvious to the front office. He is on the small side, which is the only knock on Smith but one that could lead Miami to go in another direction.
     
  6. outlawd2u

    outlawd2u Pro Bowler

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    Trust me I know... And the fact that they actually targeted Maualuga earlier this year and saw him as a starter scares the F out of me. There really seemed to be no plan all season to even try to cover TE's... it was just let's stick Kiko on them and watch him get roasted game after game. Almost as if they didn't even see it as a problem.
     
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  7. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Alonso had 58 solo tackles his Sr year, on a team that posted 583; as a Jr, Vander Esch racked up 91, on a team that totaled 565. Alonso's rate is consistent with a LB who has mediocre instincts. Alonso's splash plays are a result of his willingness to guess. Vander Esch's rate is consistent with a LB with high-end instincts. If you watch the tape, you should see that he makes good on that - beating OL to the spot, chasing down the ball in the flat, etc.. At 6'3 238 Alonso ran a 4.74 40 and posted a 30 1/2" vert at his Pro Day. At 6'4 240, Vander Esch is expected to run in the 4.6's or low 4.7's at the Combine and jump somewhere near 37". It's a poor comp.
     
  8. SF Dolphin Fan

    SF Dolphin Fan Seasoned Veteran

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    Where would you project him to go, J-Off? Also, what's your opinion of Malik Jefferson and Tremaine Edmunds? Are they both in the top 20 neighborhood?
     
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  9. Geforce

    Geforce FinHeaven VIP

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    I don't think you just rely on solo tackles as an indication of someone's instincts. Unless you know how many snaps someone played in relations to the numbers posted, you will not get anywhere near an accurate representation of a player's ability. If you remember, Oregon under Chip Kelly blew a lot of teams out so many of their starters didn't put up great individual numbers. With that said, Kiko did have 14.5 tackles for loss as a senior.
     
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  10. outlawd2u

    outlawd2u Pro Bowler

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    Or I could also see us drafting Smith, just to see him sit on the bench at first with Gase and Burke stating that he needs to bulk up or learn the playbook etc. Then an injury occurs to one of our starters and Roquan gets in and tears it up.
     
  11. BobDole

    BobDole Suck it Trebek Finheaven VIP

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    The numbers are no doubt a nice guide but do you see it when he plays? I don't. He's got some decent tape but the physicality falls way short. There's a LB at VT with identical size who checks all the boxes Vander Esch flirts with. There are Kiko comparisons I won't dare to address.
     
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  12. Stills&Landry

    Stills&Landry A True Fan

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    I don't see sub 4.7 speed from Van der esch. Van der esch is a mid-zone MLB, so is kiko. Neither is a carry coverage on the top non-wr target. Either could play Will with an in the box safety taking the TE or MLB in a cover two. I don't care about an inch (will probably still measure 6’3) and two pounds he'll lose taking a dump. He won't run faster, or measure considerably different. Doubt he'll be taken in the 1st (kiko was top 5 in the 2nd iirc). He will be taken to be a zone coverage MLB. He won't considerably outplay kiko's rookie year if at all.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
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  13. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    At this point, I don't see 20 players better than Vander Esch, but that doesn't mean he'll be a top-20 pick. LB's tend to fall a little. If Jefferson runs anywhere close to what he ran in high school, he'll solidify a 1st RD grade, and top-20 is on the table. Edmunds looks more like a 2nd-RD LB. The one guy who might join that grouping is Christian Sam (built more like R. Smith) from Arizona State. But, of the top 4, Smith and Vander Esch are outstanding at finding the ball and navigating traffic. If I was to sum up the group:

    1. R. Smith - elite instincts, very fast/rare range, coils hips and hits hard, smaller than ideal
    2. L. Vander Esch - elite instincts, fast, big/beats OL, sound/physical tackler, not as fast as Smith or Jefferson
    3. M. Jefferson - solid instincts, elite combination of size and speed, just started to put it together as a Jr and relegated to OLB because of instincts
    4. T. Edmunds - pretty good instincts, good size and speed, doesn't have Jefferson's range but navigates traffic a little better

    With the return of McMillan, any of these 4 would be a welcome addition, but there are degrees to things. Not ever draft produces LB's who have high-end instincts and plus physical tools - like Smith an Vander Esch. Jefferson looks like a bigger, more instinctive version of Jarrad Davis, who I thought Detroit drafted too early, but, again, Jefferson is a better version. I could see Edmunds as a better version of KJ Wright - maybe somewhere between Julian Peterson and KJ Wright.
     
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  14. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    I'd be surprised to see Edmunds test significantly better than Vander Esch. If anything, I think Vander Esch is faster and has better burst. But, we'll get that answer soon, so no reason to torture the point. Edmunds isn't as quick mentally as Vander Esch. It's like the difference between a QB who throws with anticipation and one who needs to see the WR open to throw it. On many of the plays where Edmunds is hung up, battling an OL, Vander Esch would have already identified the play and would have an angle on the OL. This is the main reason that Vander Esch navigates traffic better. I was going to make some gifs, but they're loading slow for some reason, so I'll mark the times of some standout plays below:

    0:47 - run away, gets there without issue
    1:09 - beats OG to make tackle for short gain
    1:31 - splits double-team from OL to make TFL (mental and physical quickness show up big)
    1:54 - in the right spot to make tackle for short gain
    2:17 - in the right spot to make tackle for short gain
    3:00 - gets pressure on blitz vs OG
    3:15 - shows speed to get to the sideline on the reverse
    4:10 - scrapes down the line and keeps himself clean for TFL
    4:43 - not an impact play, but it shows his cleverness, trying to knock OT off of DE
    8:02 - scrapes down the line to tackle Penny for a 1-yard gain on 3rd and 2.

     
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  15. j-off-her-doll

    j-off-her-doll FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    I didn't mean to imply that you can look at solo tackles and call it a day. When you watch Kiko diagnose a play, you're watching someone who doesn't really know what he's seeing. There will either be hesitation to the point of paralysis, or he'll just guess and go and live with the consequences. Again, this is why he gives up as many big plays as he makes. Kiko had significant character concerns, including being caught driving drunk and with cocaine, coming out of Oregon, and he's a dumb guy. You hear him talk, and he sounds slow - like thinking is hard. Vander Esch is known as the hardest worker on his team. I forget which teammate said it, but he said he didn't know that someone could work that hard - like it hadn't occurred to him that it was even possible. He only played 8-on-8 football in high school, came to Boise as a thin walk-on, and his coaches have raved about his progress. Aside from height, I don't see any similarities between the two.

    Vander Esch sees the play very quickly and has the burst and physicality to make the play consistently, is a smart, and a hard worker with excellent character. Kiko is none of these things.
     
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  16. SF Dolphin Fan

    SF Dolphin Fan Seasoned Veteran

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    Thank you, J-Off. Really appreciate your feedback.

    If I was drafting and knew I could find a starting caliber offensive lineman in the 3rd round or later, I might be tempted to go linebacker in both the 1st and 2nd. Maybe linebacker in the first and a tight end like Andrews in R2.
     
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  17. FinsGonnaRock06

    FinsGonnaRock06 A True Fan

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    Not impressed at all
     
  18. SCLSU Mud Dogs

    SCLSU Mud Dogs UCF 13-0 Finheaven VIP Donator

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    It isn't a highlight video. It's tape. Not every play is meant to make you drop your jaw.

    On another note, this guy at least stands his ground against blockers and can tackle. Kiko not so much.
     
  19. FinsGonnaRock06

    FinsGonnaRock06 A True Fan

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    i am seeing solid player only, Kiko has turned into crap since signing his new deal no doubt, we need impact Lbs for sure.
     

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