Gates having tough time picking up WC offense

[LikeUntoGod]

The sad thing about bringing Chad Johnson is that he already has the same problem that is holding back C Gates. However, C Gates is young and this is new to him. Johnson is a 11 season veteran, was on a team for over a year and still could not pick it up.

 

[NYPhinzFan]

Ocho Stinko have never played in the WCO; think he'll learn the pass routes any faster than Gates?

He's a 6 time pro bowler and has over 1,000 yards receiving in all but 4 of his 10 or 11 year career. He's also a fabulous route runner. Let's not compare Gates to Chad Johnson please. Gates didn't even play football before Abilene Christian and was a poor route runner who seemed to only run 9 routes in college. There is not a route tree that Johnson has not run, so let's stop with the learning to run routes in the WCO conversation.

 

[Zounds]

that would be a comment based off again the sparano development system. Also what has patrick turner done since then?

Patrick Turner hasnt done anything, and thats my point. Just because a player is in his 2nd year and was drafted in the 4th round last year doesnt mean he is entitled to a roster spot.

 

[LikeUntoGod]

He's also a fabulous route runner. Let's not compare Gates to Chad Johnson please. .

Why do you say that when everyone in the NFL agrees that it is not true? Can you link were anyone agrees with you that he is a "fabulous" route runner?

Daniel Jeremiah NFL.com
2) He has lost his explosiveness. That is the trait that made him so dangerous during his productive years in Cincinnati. He was never a technician as a route runner.

Charley Casserly NFL.com
I would not be surprised if it was over. Ochocinco's physical skills have diminished, and he is not a disciplined enough route runner to overcome this decline. Also, when you sign a veteran receiver at the end of his career, you want him to be a leader. Chad is not a leader. He is not a starter and can't help on special teams.

On at least one occasion, Branch still had to point him to the right spot. He didn't have the kind of football intelligence you need to adjust to all that goes on with the Patriots offense, then read the defense, and be where Brady expects you to be. He just never got it.

http://nfl.si.com/2012/06/07/chad-oc...sct=nfl_bf3_a4

The 34-year-old Ochocinco struggled throughout the 2011 season trying to grasp New England’s high-flying offense and, even into recent minicamps, reports told of him screwing up even the most basic premises of the playbook.

 

[schwayne32]

I have to agree with ya, i would rather stick with Gates then sign Ocho

 

[walt]

Why do you say that when everyone in the NFL agrees that it is not true? Can you link were anyone agrees with you that he is a "fabulous" route runner?

Daniel Jeremiah NFL.com
2) He has lost his explosiveness. That is the trait that made him so dangerous during his productive years in Cincinnati. He was never a technician as a route runner.

Charley Casserly NFL.com
I would not be surprised if it was over. Ochocinco's physical skills have diminished, and he is not a disciplined enough route runner to overcome this decline. Also, when you sign a veteran receiver at the end of his career, you want him to be a leader. Chad is not a leader. He is not a starter and can't help on special teams.

On at least one occasion, Branch still had to point him to the right spot. He didn't have the kind of football intelligence you need to adjust to all that goes on with the Patriots offense, then read the defense, and be where Brady expects you to be. He just never got it.

http://nfl.si.com/2012/06/07/chad-oc...sct=nfl_bf3_a4

The 34-year-old Ochocinco struggled throughout the 2011 season trying to grasp New England’s high-flying offense and, even into recent minicamps, reports told of him screwing up even the most basic premises of the playbook.

So, he can't fathom a playbook, and he's a lousy route runner. How then are you explaining his borderline HOF career production?

 

[NYPhinzFan]

Why do you say that when everyone in the NFL agrees that it is not true? Can you link were anyone agrees with you that he is a "fabulous" route runner?

Daniel Jeremiah NFL.com
2) He has lost his explosiveness. That is the trait that made him so dangerous during his productive years in Cincinnati. He was never a technician as a route runner.

Charley Casserly NFL.com
I would not be surprised if it was over. Ochocinco's physical skills have diminished, and he is not a disciplined enough route runner to overcome this decline. Also, when you sign a veteran receiver at the end of his career, you want him to be a leader. Chad is not a leader. He is not a starter and can't help on special teams.

On at least one occasion, Branch still had to point him to the right spot. He didn't have the kind of football intelligence you need to adjust to all that goes on with the Patriots offense, then read the defense, and be where Brady expects you to be. He just never got it.

http://nfl.si.com/2012/06/07/chad-oc...sct=nfl_bf3_a4

The 34-year-old Ochocinco struggled throughout the 2011 season trying to grasp New England’s high-flying offense and, even into recent minicamps, reports told of him screwing up even the most basic premises of the playbook.

I'm not going off of anything I "read" in regards to his route running ability; I rely on my own eyes. He's smooth and quick in and out of his cuts, doesn't sell the route, and creates good separation.

What I did read was that he ran poor routes in New England because he was freelancing due to his "thinking too much" and not fully understanding their route concepts. I also read on some Patriot sites where they were ecstatic about signing him because he's a "better route runner than Deion Branch" and "An effective playaction pass is a great way to neutralize a pass rush, and could play to Ochocinco’s precise route running and his ability to get just enough separation to get open". There are a plethora of other sites that completely contradict Casserly. But that's neither here nor there to me; I'll rely on what I see. Also as someone mentioned, I don't see how you consistently put up the type of numbers he has througout his career by being a poor route runner. He's not a big physical specimen like Brandon Marshall where he would get away with poor routes by using his big frame.

I'll withhold judgement on him having "lost it", if he signs with us and fades into obscurity behind our current crop of receivers.

 

[datruth55]

He's a 6 time pro bowler and has over 1,000 yards receiving in all but 4 of his 10 or 11 year career. He's also a fabulous route runner. Let's not compare Gates to Chad Johnson please. Gates didn't even play football before Abilene Christian and was a poor route runner who seemed to only run 9 routes in college. There is not a route tree that Johnson has not run, so let's stop with the learning to run routes in the WCO conversation.

Let's pretend he doesn run "fabulous" routes like you say. Does it really matter how well he runs them if they're the wrong ones? Maybe you should read the thread where some GMs chime in on Chad Ochocinco. They seems to all agree he ran the wrong routes often.

 

[CANDolphan]

Ocho Stinko have never played in the WCO; think he'll learn the pass routes any faster than Gates?

This is not really true, a lot of his work under Hue Jackson was west coast variant. Those were the years Chad Johnson and TJ Housh had their most productive, actually.

Let's pretend he doesn run "fabulous" routes like you say. Does it really matter how well he runs them if they're the wrong ones? Maybe you should read the thread where some GMs chime in on Chad Ochocinco. They seems to all agree he ran the wrong routes often.

This also isn't true. Did you read the same thread? A lot of them said he doesn't have the gas left in the tank, and that he seems to have lost a step.

I'm getting tired of people on this board throwing crap to a wall and either 1) Waiting to be corrected and brushing it off 2) Refuting the correction as if WE have the burden of proof to correct a statement that just makes no sense!

 

[NYPhinzFan]

Let's pretend he doesn run "fabulous" routes like you say. Does it really matter how well he runs them if they're the wrong ones? Maybe you should read the thread where some GMs chime in on Chad Ochocinco. They seems to all agree he ran the wrong routes often.

...and maybe you should read the other comments from Execs and scouts in that same thread. Don't be sheep, form your own opinion, as it's clear that not even NFL folks can come to a consensus on what he can and can't do anymore, solely based on his year in NE.

 

[LikeUntoGod]

So, he can't fathom a playbook, and he's a lousy route runner. How then are you explaining his borderline HOF career production?

That is simple. Much like B Marshall, he is good because he is a great athlete. He could beat almost every defensive back long and that was his base route. He also could really catch the ball and could out jump many defensive backs. Pairing so long with C Palmer got him time for Palmer to know him and could gues on a lot of what he would do.

Johnson was the old school "number one" WR. He could take any corner long and win both of the jump balls and he has good hands.

But NFL players who rely on speed alone are the ones that do not make it at some point. His has lost a couple of steps. He is no longer good enough for you to say to him, run this one pattern and you are so good, that I'm going to throw you on that one pattern.

Anyway, that is how he became a 6 time HOFer. Out of 11 years, you should ask when was his last one and just how far as he dropped?

 

[NYPhinzFan]

That is simple. Much like B Marshall, he is good because he is a great athlete. He could beat almost every defensive back long and that was his base route. He also could really catch the ball and could out jump many defensive backs. Pairing so long with C Palmer got him time for Palmer to know him and could gues on a lot of what he would do.

Johnson was the old school "number one" WR. He could take any corner long and win both of the jump balls and he has good hands.

But NFL players who rely on speed alone are the ones that do not make it at some point. His has lost a couple of steps. He is no longer good enough for you to say to him, run this one pattern and you are so good, that I'm going to throw you on that one pattern.

Anyway, that is how he became a 6 time HOFer. Out of 11 years, you should ask when was his last one and just how far as he dropped?

2009. He was injured in 2010 and had a down year in a new system in New England in 2011. So a 6 time pro bowler who last made the pro bowl 3 seasons ago, was injured and traded to a new team/system is all of a sudden worse than Marlon Moore? Gotta love Finheaven.

 

[CANDolphan]

Chad Johnson was never a freak athlete like Randy Moss/Calvin Johnson/Vincent Jackson. Hell, even Brandon Marshall isn't a true deep threat that you just described.

Johnson has never used blistering speed to get separation or be productive. He runs super crisp routes and has an incredible break on out routes/curls. He also has tremendous footwork.

LikeUntoGod I have to ask, do you really know what you're watching? Everything you just said is... to be polite... flat out wrong. Johnson is dumb as a box of rocks, and yes, had decent size (6'1 190 running a 4.4) but acting like he was a pure physical freak is just unfair to the guys game.

 

[LANGER72]

Some guys may have all the talent in the world but do not have the mental capacity to learn new concepts quickly. Gates seems to fall into that category.
If the staff believes that his talent is worth waiting for, then he stays, otherwise he is gone. It is that simple.

 

[tazthenomad]

You're judging these guys based off the sparano development system. We don't know what they can do in a philbin based development system.

I agree with your thinking. There are a lot of players that could benefit from a more modern coaching approach and system.