Guard- an honest debate about a not so important position

[Foo27]

I've read in here that people would be happy with Whitehair and Garnett at 1 and 2. Yuck. That's a horrid draft that would set this team back further. Not even Tannenbaum is that dumb.

I've read about Conklin and this guy and that guy converting to tackle after 2 year stint at guard when we take him at #13. Are you guys so focused on guard play that you can't see the holes all over the defense and at RB? Far more important positions need to be addressed early.

I've also read a post that good guards don't come after the third round. Unless you are the Pats, Panthers, Broncos or Seahawks who have gotten guards late or especially as UNDRAFTED free agents. Many of your arguments which seem to never waver year to year despite mounds of evidence to the contrary are intellectually bankrupt- there's NO value in taking Whitehair, Garnett or any of these low impact players before the third round. I think fourth round is more accurate but this team gets much more value and impact by drafting rb's and defensive players than these over-rated, overvalued (by you, the lemming Dolphin fan who buys the O-line first last and forever crap every year)

Hate to tell you this but one of your guards next year is Bushrod and the other is either Douglas or Turner. Maybe you get 1 or 2 late in the draft. Maybe you get Schwartz or J Evans but stop with the we need OL first second and third.

TB and Grier have already told you by their actions what they think about the big dough boys in the middle of their O-line. They need to be coached up not over drafted. Some guy from K State who benches less than a good safety is NEVER more valuable than a corner, pass rusher or good running back. C'mon. It's time to stop the antiquated thinking that Joe Philbin went along well and promoted.

 

[DKphin]

I do not know how you can say that OG is not an important position. Look at the offense last year and tell me that OG is not important. We have multiple holes on this team, but we have to protect our QB.

 

[PSU Cane]

Flawed logic. You always look to improve your team the best you can in any draft. If a guard is there in round 2 with a MUCH higher grade than the available CBs or DEs and you think he's starts Day 1 at a need position while the others are depth players who could grow into a starting role, you take the guard. Why? Your RB valuation doesn't matter if he has no holes to run through. Your defense won't matter if you can't keep your QB upright. And all the talent on the outside in Landry, Parker and Stills won't matter if Tannehill doesn't have 2-3 seconds to get it to them.

The draft board should be a living, breathing creature. As each pick is made, the value of those players remaining should keep changing. You shouldn't pigeonhole guys or get locked into positions without quantifying their value in the draft and on your roster.

I'm open to the idea of taking BPA at 13 with a waited avg for need positions and value (depth in the years draft).

 

[TheWalrus]

I pity the foo.

 

[Sons Of Shula]

The game is won and lost in the trenches.

That's the honest truth.

 

[Foo27]

Flawed logic. You always look to improve your team the best you can in any draft. If a guard is there in round 2 with a MUCH higher grade than the available CBs or DEs and you think he's starts Day 1 at a need position while the others are depth players who could grow into a starting role, you take the guard. Why? Your RB valuation doesn't matter if he has no holes to run through. Your defense won't matter if you can't keep your QB upright. And all the talent on the outside in Landry, Parker and Stills won't matter if Tannehill doesn't have 2-3 seconds to get it to them.

The draft board should be a living, breathing creature. As each pick is made, the value of those players remaining should keep changing. You shouldn't pigeonhole guys or get locked into positions without quantifying their value in the draft and on your roster.

I'm open to the idea of taking BPA at 13 with a waited avg for need positions and value (depth in the years draft).

Flawed logic is overreaching for guards in second and third rounds and then acting indignant that we HAVE to keep doing this until we get it right. We don't have to and shouldn't. Value isn't there especially when you consider we need defenders at every level more than we need a stinking guard.
Name me a guard who's going to have a MUCH higher grade than a CB, DE LB or RB we can get in round 2. There aren't any, even if Whitehair slips. the better pick is Fuller, Artie Burns, Henry, J Bullard etc.


Is there one person in here who's ever seen Cody Whitehair or any of these "top" guards play? Is there one person qualified to tell me or anybody else that a friggin' guard has more value than a top level SEC or ACC defender The correct value for guards is round 4 and later. get some undrafted ones and sign Schwartz but do not have another crappy draft by over-reaching for one of the least valuable positions on the roster.

Fix the guard spot by better coaching not by wasting draft picks

 

[Foo27]

The game is won and lost in the trenches.



That's a platitude. Again, please answer this one honestly. How much value do the really good teams put on their stink in' guard positions? What did Pats and Panthers do to fill those spots.

The game is won by having playmakers and depth throughout the roster. Neither objective is reached when you overdraft GUARDS. That's the dumbest thing we can do and it should be out with the trash and the Phibin regime

Not one of you has ever provided a good reason to take a guard over a better defender at 42 or even their 3rd round pick. I'd rather take the FSU kicker in round 2 because he will impact the dolphins much more than a rookie guard

that's the honest truth.

 

[TheWalrus]

The game is won and lost in the trenches.

That's the honest truth.

True. But you can't spend 10 first round picks on those positions. You can't even load up on first and second rounders unless you want to devote five years to the job.

There's a reason why offensive guards and safeties are the lowest paid players in the league on average. It's because those positions aren't quite as important as others. You should draft accordingly. On the offensive line in particular having one outstanding player doesn't really help you compared to having one outstanding defensive lineman, for example.

As usual with this team it's not the resources, it's that we pick ****ty players and we do a ****ty job coaching them up.

 

[xXwarXx]

Guards are as important as tackles in today's NFL.

The blitz up the middle has become one of the main areas of advancement in modern day defenses IMO. There isn't enough quality edge rushers in the NFL, so teams got more creative, they also realized the only way to really beat QBs like Peyton and Brady was with quick pressure up the middle.

A lot of teams, clearly us included have failed to adjust to this. A lot of teams have also underestimated just how hard it is on young guards to pick up these blitz packages up the middle. Guards need far more instincts now than they ever have in then past.

Rams found this out when they stuck Gregg Robinson at guwith thinking it Would be a easy transition, and he got absolutely destroyed. The guard position is not the easy position to fill it once was.

 

[Foo27]

True. But you can't spend 10 first round picks on those positions. You can't even load up on first and second rounders unless you want to devote five years to the job.

There's a reason why offensive guards and safeties are the lowest paid players in the league on average. It's because those positions aren't quite as important as others. You should draft accordingly. On the offensive line in particular having one outstanding player doesn't really help you compared to having one outstanding defensive lineman, for example.

As usual with this team it's not the resources, it's that we pick ****ty players and we do a ****ty job coaching them up.

I agree. But if Vonn Bell is there at #42 we should take him, we have no true FS on roster and that to me can be an impact position

 

[Foo27]

Guards are as important as tackles in today's NFL.

The blitz up the middle has become one of the main areas of advancement in modern day defenses IMO. There isn't enough quality edge rushers in the NFL, so teams got more creative, they also realized the only way to really beat QBs like Peyton and Brady was with quick pressure up the middle.

A lot of teams, clearly us included have failed to adjust to this. A lot of teams have also underestimated just how hard it is on young guards to pick up these blitz packages up the middle. Guards need far more instincts now than they ever have in then past.

Rams found this out when they stuck Gregg Robinson at guwith thinking it Would be a easy transition, and he got absolutely destroyed. The guard position is not the easy position to fill it once was.

Bingo- you hit on something. Rookie tackles can't be expected to come in and play well at guard. Not Conklin, not Whitehair not Ronnie Stanley. A good SEC pass rusher or veteran pass rusher will tear apart our rookie G. Given the state of our roster we're better off drafting the best defensive players early and going with Bushrod and someone else who's played guard. Gase's system and coaching will help

 

[TheWalrus]

I agree. But if Vonn Bell is there at #42 we should take him, we have no true FS on roster and that to me can be an impact position

In the right system free safeties can make a big impact. In a power scheme your left (pulling) guard can also make a big impact.

My overall point remains. Positions in the NFL are not created equal. The smart teams know this and draft accordingly.

That being said, if you have the opportunity to acquire a special player, someone with truly rare ability, you should generally do that regardless of position. Smart coaches can take rare players and design a new scheme to leverage them. Position fits and schemes and needs have to take a backseat to elite talents.

 

[PSU Cane]

Flawed logic is overreaching for guards in second and third rounds and then acting indignant that we HAVE to keep doing this until we get it right. We don't have to and shouldn't. Value isn't there especially when you consider we need defenders at every level more than we need a stinking guard.
Name me a guard who's going to have a MUCH higher grade than a CB, DE LB or RB we can get in round 2. There aren't any, even if Whitehair slips. the better pick is Fuller, Artie Burns, Henry, J Bullard etc.


Is there one person in here who's ever seen Cody Whitehair or any of these "top" guards play? Is there one person qualified to tell me or anybody else that a friggin' guard has more value than a top level SEC or ACC defender The correct value for guards is round 4 and later. get some undrafted ones and sign Schwartz but do not have another crappy draft by over-reaching for one of the least valuable positions on the roster.

Fix the guard spot by better coaching not by wasting draft picks

- Please don't underestimate many of the posters here who do lots of research and have seen tape of all these guards, along with many other players. You'd be surprised how much tape some of us watch.
- Qualified? What qualifies someone? Being on an NFL payroll? You already said the Philbin era wasn't qualified to properly draft, so that can't be it. The great thing about evaluations is it's all opinion-based and you won't know the correct answer for a few years......oh, and everyone misses, even the best of them. Look at some of Belichick's drafts.
- I just think the logic you supplied is flawed and i don't rank players and mock needs in a vacuum based on blanket rules as you do. It's not saying i'm right or you're wrong, i just view things differently. I value positions and players differently by year, by scheme, by need and by depth in the draft.

 

[PSU Cane]

The game is won and lost in the trenches.



That's a platitude. Again, please answer this one honestly. How much value do the really good teams put on their stink in' guard positions? What did Pats and Panthers do to fill those spots.

The game is won by having playmakers and depth throughout the roster. Neither objective is reached when you overdraft GUARDS. That's the dumbest thing we can do and it should be out with the trash and the Phibin regime

Not one of you has ever provided a good reason to take a guard over a better defender at 42 or even their 3rd round pick. I'd rather take the FSU kicker in round 2 because he will impact the dolphins much more than a rookie guard

that's the honest truth.

In some of the mocks i was playing around with this weekend, i wasn't taking a guard until Round 3. Just thought i'd mention that. However, it's all about how the board falls.

 

[Sons Of Shula]

I'd rather take the FSU kicker in round 2 because he will impact the dolphins much more than a rookie guard

that's the honest truth.

Tells me all I need to know in bothering to further engage this thread.

:driveby: