How much patience in Cam... | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

How much patience in Cam...

MarksBro27

MarksBro27

Practice Squad
Joined
Jan 24, 2007
Messages
23
Reaction score
0
Location
Bristol, United Kingdom
Like, I think, most here, I was less than enamoured with the 13 names that came up during the coaching search, a bad year to be finding a new head guy. Now the hire has been made and after all that's been made available to read up about Cameron, I'm feeling a lot better with the direction this team appears to be going in. Truth is though, we don't really know how good a coach Cameron will be. There are marks against him, some I agree with (18-37 at Indiana) and some I don't (he had great players in San Diego... well, so did Mike Holmgren and Mike Shanahan in San Francisco), but all that can only provide the slightest of clues as to what kind of head coach we have. Nobody would have guessed that Andy Reid, Sean Payton or Jon Gruden would have the success they've had, yet everyone predicted greatness for Saban, Wannstedt (in Chicago) and even Jimmy when he arrived in Miami.

You just don't know...

So, to come to an appreciation of a sort of timescale, how long should we give Cameron. How long are you willing to give him to get this team to a position of relevence and importance again?

For personal and arbitrary reasons, I look at an appearance in the final 4, the Conference Championship, as an indicator regarding who makes a good head coach and who runs an elite programme. It doesn't always work of course (Jim Mora) but generally those who get there teams to that game are usually the ones carving out long and successful careers. Don Shula was the last coach to get Miami there, being just one missed FG from taking the team to the AFC Championship twice in his last 4 seasons... (why did we ever kick him to the curb, and why did I ever support that move....?). JJ got us to within 35 and 55 points of the game (the margin of defeat in two Divisional Playoffs) and Wanny to within 27... Saban never came remotely near it.

If Cam gets us to the AFCCG then we can perhaps determine that we have a likely keeper. But how long do we give him? Well, below is a list of coaches, past and present, who coached in a Super Bowl, giving which season from the start of their HC career they first made a championship game appearance along with the same for their first SB.

John Fox - CC - 2nd, SB - 2nd
Joe Gibbs - CC - 2nd, SB - 2nd
Brian Billick - CC - 2nd, SB - 2nd
Don Shula - CC - 2nd, SB - 6th*
Lovie Smith - CC - 3rd, SB - 3rd
Mike Ditka - CC - 3rd, SB - 4th
Bill Cowher - CC 3rd, SB - 4th
Jon Gruden - CC 3rd, SB - 5th (2nd team)
Andy Reid - CC - 3rd, SB - 6th
Jimmy Johnson - CC - 4th, SB - 4th
Bill Parcells - CC - 4th, SB - 4th
Mike Holmgren - CC - 4th, SB - 5th
Tony Dungy - CC - 4th, SB - 11th (2nd team)
Dick Vermeil - CC - 5th, SB - 5th
Jeff Fisher - CC 5th, SB - 5th+
Mike Shanahan - CC - 5th (2nd team), SB - 5th (2nd team)
Dan Reeves - CC - 6th, SB - 6th
Bill Belichick - CC - 7th (2nd team), SB - 7th (2nd team)
Marv Levy - CC - 8th (2nd team), SB - 10th (2nd team)

So, with that information to hand, a selection of coaches coming to a variety of teams and situations (John Fox took over a 1-15 for instance) and covering both pre and post salary cap, at what point do you feel your patience with Cameron will start to wear thin? How long has he got...?


*Don Shula couldn't have taken a team to the SB his first three years as it didn't exist, however, for our purposes I'm counting an NFL championship win pre-SB as the same as a conference championship win. His Colts made the NFL Championship game his second year (1964) but were beaten by Cleveland.

+This was actually Fisher's 5th full year, but his 6th in actuality having spent the close of 1994 as the interim HC for the fired Jack Pardee.
 
Well his contract is four years, so barring a total collapse (how much worse than 6-10 can we get?) , they will decide whether to extend him or fire him after his third season.... They won't let him enter the 4th season without an extension....So IMO he's got the 07, 08, and 09 seasons.....That sounds fair to me....
 
I know you spent a long time on this, and I apologize for having such a terse answer:

If we are in the playoffs on a yearly basis, if we continue to make runs and be competitive, then he'll stay here indefinitely. If not, he goes after 3.
 
I said this for the last couple seasons. If we don't come out of the gates like Secretariat come September, this board will implode. And Cam will get the brunt of it this time.
 
One thing I like (or maybe its just me) is a lesser name means lower expectations from the start. It gives Cameron a chance to establish something and not get ripped to shreds if seasons 1 and 2 don't result in Super Bowl or even playoff appearances.

Those were unavoidable trends when Jimmy or Satan were hired. The expectations shot threw the roof, and no one could contain it. I like this move and think it will get us back in the playoffs at the least by year 2 or 3....just my honest opinion.
 
MarksBro27 said:
Like, I think, most here, I was less than enamoured with the 13 names that came up during the coaching search, a bad year to be finding a new head guy. Now the hire has been made and after all that's been made available to read up about Cameron, I'm feeling a lot better with the direction this team appears to be going in. Truth is though, we don't really know how good a coach Cameron will be. There are marks against him, some I agree with (18-37 at Indiana) and some I don't (he had great players in San Diego... well, so did Mike Holmgren and Mike Shanahan in San Francisco), but all that can only provide the slightest of clues as to what kind of head coach we have. Nobody would have guessed that Andy Reid, Sean Payton or Jon Gruden would have the success they've had, yet everyone predicted greatness for Saban, Wannstedt (in Chicago) and even Jimmy when he arrived in Miami.

You just don't know...

So, to come to an appreciation of a sort of timescale, how long should we give Cameron. How long are you willing to give him to get this team to a position of relevence and importance again?

For personal and arbitrary reasons, I look at an appearance in the final 4, the Conference Championship, as an indicator regarding who makes a good head coach and who runs an elite programme. It doesn't always work of course (Jim Mora) but generally those who get there teams to that game are usually the ones carving out long and successful careers. Don Shula was the last coach to get Miami there, being just one missed FG from taking the team to the AFC Championship twice in his last 4 seasons... (why did we ever kick him to the curb, and why did I ever support that move....?). JJ got us to within 35 and 55 points of the game (the margin of defeat in two Divisional Playoffs) and Wanny to within 27... Saban never came remotely near it.

If Cam gets us to the AFCCG then we can perhaps determine that we have a likely keeper. But how long do we give him? Well, below is a list of coaches, past and present, who coached in a Super Bowl, giving which season from the start of their HC career they first made a championship game appearance along with the same for their first SB.

John Fox - CC - 2nd, SB - 2nd
Joe Gibbs - CC - 2nd, SB - 2nd
Brian Billick - CC - 2nd, SB - 2nd
Don Shula - CC - 2nd, SB - 6th*
Lovie Smith - CC - 3rd, SB - 3rd
Mike Ditka - CC - 3rd, SB - 4th
Bill Cowher - CC 3rd, SB - 4th
Jon Gruden - CC 3rd, SB - 5th (2nd team)
Andy Reid - CC - 3rd, SB - 6th
Jimmy Johnson - CC - 4th, SB - 4th
Bill Parcells - CC - 4th, SB - 4th
Mike Holmgren - CC - 4th, SB - 5th
Tony Dungy - CC - 4th, SB - 11th (2nd team)
Dick Vermeil - CC - 5th, SB - 5th
Jeff Fisher - CC 5th, SB - 5th+
Mike Shanahan - CC - 5th (2nd team), SB - 5th (2nd team)
Dan Reeves - CC - 6th, SB - 6th
Bill Belichick - CC - 7th (2nd team), SB - 7th (2nd team)
Marv Levy - CC - 8th (2nd team), SB - 10th (2nd team)

So, with that information to hand, a selection of coaches coming to a variety of teams and situations (John Fox took over a 1-15 for instance) and covering both pre and post salary cap, at what point do you feel your patience with Cameron will start to wear thin? How long has he got...?


*Don Shula couldn't have taken a team to the SB his first three years as it didn't exist, however, for our purposes I'm counting an NFL championship win pre-SB as the same as a conference championship win. His Colts made the NFL Championship game his second year (1964) but were beaten by Cleveland.

+This was actually Fisher's 5th full year, but his 6th in actuality having spent the close of 1994 as the interim HC for the fired Jack Pardee.
Click to expand...



Look.... I know you put a lot of effort in this. Can we just let the guy coach his first year or even his first games before we start talking how quick he can be out of here. He did well with the offense in SD. Give him time. He has to turn around a mess created by Saban and "The Stach". After the draft and the team starts to build unity....we can see where the team is headed. Great post but lets see what he can do before asking how much time we give him, ok.
 
O'townPhinFan said:
Look.... I know you put a lot of effort in this. Can we just let the guy coach his first year or even his first games before we start talking how quick he can be out of here. He did well with the offense in SD. Give him time. He has to turn around a mess created by Saban and "The Stach". After the draft and the team starts to build unity....we can see where the team is headed. Great post but lets see what he can do before asking how much time we give him, ok.
Click to expand...
Exactly! Thank you. I was reading the Steelers site concerning their hire of Tomlin and about 90% of their posts were saying welcome aboard coach, welcome Coach Tomlin, good luck, you're our guy, we're behind you, yada yada yada, they are genuinally behind him and give their full support unless given a reason not to. Some fans on this board are already on to how much time we give a certain coach or on to who the next coach should be. Give it a rest already. Cam is our coach, he's got a 4 year contract, so let's give him some time to actually come in and show us something first. Remember, the Oh Mighty Bill in Foxboro was 6-10 his first year with the Patriots. So let's give Cam time to build some coaching continuity and build a team that he can coach. I'm not saying give him blind faith and never question what he or any coach does, but he's been on the job a couple of weeks now, let's let him get some games or a year or so under his belt rather than a few coaching changes after being on the job two weeks.
 
One of the problems Cam faces is that his playmakers on D (especially in the front 7) are probably going to see their age start to catch up with them soon. So he has to find new playmakers there. We have some potential along the DL, but potential often goes unrealized.

At the same time he has to get a struggling offense working. If it takes him a couple of years to get the offense going, the defense might have regressed, and overall we'll not have seen much progress toward a championship. I fear that if this happens, fans will lose sight of the bigger picture and start calling for the latest coaching flavor of the month.

As for this fan, I'm not setting a timetable. I'm watching very eagerly to see how he and Randy handle their personnel.
 
He certainly didn't inherit a good situation with Miami having more question marks than they do answers. He has his work cut out for him so I will give him some time before I jump to any judgements.
 
fishfan34 said:
Exactly! Thank you. I was reading the Steelers site concerning their hire of Tomlin and about 90% of their posts were saying welcome aboard coach, welcome Coach Tomlin, good luck, you're our guy, we're behind you, yada yada yada, they are genuinally behind him and give their full support unless given a reason not to. Some fans on this board are already on to how much time we give a certain coach or on to who the next coach should be. Give it a rest already. Cam is our coach, he's got a 4 year contract, so let's give him some time to actually come in and show us something first. Remember, the Oh Mighty Bill in Foxboro was 6-10 his first year with the Patriots. So let's give Cam time to build some coaching continuity and build a team that he can coach. I'm not saying give him blind faith and never question what he or any coach does, but he's been on the job a couple of weeks now, let's let him get some games or a year or so under his belt rather than a few coaching changes after being on the job two weeks.
Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying but I also understand a lot of emotions here with the coaching fiasco we have had in Miami, unlike the Steelers who just lost a long time winning coach that was well liked by fans and the organization. Miami's recent coaching history is a zoo with Johnson pulling Wannstedt in the back door and Sabans betrayal. Miami's fans were in the same state of mind when Johnson came aboard after Shula.
 
OneHondo said:
I understand what you are saying but I also understand a lot of emotions here with the coaching fiasco we have had in Miami, unlike the Steelers who just lost a long time winning coach that was well liked by fans and the organization. Miami's recent coaching history is a zoo with Johnson pulling Wannstedt in the back door and Sabans betrayal. Miami's fans were in the same state of mind when Johnson came aboard after Shula.
Click to expand...


I hear what you're saying. I am a huge Dolfan. Have been for some time now. I look at every year as a new year even with all the BS going on. I will do the same this year as I do every year. New year with a clean slate. Yes there is repeated years of coaches and crap....it happens. I want to win more than anyone including the players I think...lol. But I want to see Cam progress. Build team unity and see our offense finally meet the tenasity out defense has. I have been waiting for it for years now....dating back to Marino. I could follow in the footsteps of most fans and say...trade this, trade that, get rid of Cam after 1 yr if he can get us to the SB. Like I say every year....New year, New players, New attitude and New outlook. Now we can add new coach. I support Cam. He has a 4 yr contract and I will support him every year he is here and is showing improvement. I dont expect to go to the SB his first yr but it would be nice. Miami fans need to take a breather. Good things will happen. They do for every franchise...give it time....thats all I can say.
 
I keep remembering it's not about Cam Cameron... and you know what the man is right.

By keeping Mularkey, losing Garrett, and Mike Shula... he's now down to:

10-6 and the playoffs during his first two years.
 
Ok!!

fishfan34 said:
Exactly! Thank you. I was reading the Steelers site concerning their hire of Tomlin and about 90% of their posts were saying welcome aboard coach, welcome Coach Tomlin, good luck, you're our guy, we're behind you, yada yada yada, they are genuinally behind him and give their full support unless given a reason not to. Some fans on this board are already on to how much time we give a certain coach or on to who the next coach should be. Give it a rest already. Cam is our coach, he's got a 4 year contract, so let's give him some time to actually come in and show us something first. Remember, the Oh Mighty Bill in Foxboro was 6-10 his first year with the Patriots. So let's give Cam time to build some coaching continuity and build a team that he can coach. I'm not saying give him blind faith and never question what he or any coach does, but he's been on the job a couple of weeks now, let's let him get some games or a year or so under his belt rather than a few coaching changes after being on the job two weeks.
Click to expand...

Even though, i understand you guys, you need to understand the other side of the coin. Pitts, has have one coach and during that spam on time, we has have more than 4 HC, so some of us don't see continuity as a norm, but more as a rearity or something weird. We are more like a team that changes coach because... thats is why some of us think that as soon as we have a HC, we need to look for anotehr HC, cause this one will not be here that much, it is almost like a draf for a coach. In 2 years this HC will be abailable or something like that
 
Oops... looks like I stirred a hornets nest of sorts.

I'm sorry if I've given the wrong impression but this isn't an exercise in order to pile on to a guy who hasn't even held his first practice yet. It's more of an exercise to see where the denizens of Finheaven are with their expectations and patience. Personally, I like Cameron and am already a fan. He's said all the right things, there seems to be a logical method to his coaching hires so far, and his expertise is just what this team neads right now to complement our defense.

So, now that's out of the way, all good things aside, what I'm asking is at what point will your patience begin to wane? Would 4 years similar to Marvin Lewis (three at .500, one season of one and done, and a roster of criminals and reprbates) be okay? Or do you feel a playoff victory is necessary in those first 4 years? Would your patience last only as long as the team shows constant improvement, or could it handle some form of minor regression. Wanny didn't get this as the calls for his head came somewhere in that three game losing streak against Minnesota, New England and Houston in 2002/03, despite making the playoffs the first two years. Before you jump on me, no I am not a Wanny supporter and was joining the calls for his termination, or at least contemplating it, at around that time as well... Would Cam get the same treatment, or does the fact he doesn't have a previous template of disaster in Chicago afford him some slack?

Basically, I'm an optimist, always looking for the positive and an advocate of demonstrating patience, the sort of patience that allows Bill Cowher to get through two losing seasons and a 3rd straight non-playoff year in 1998-2000 and be afforded the chance to reap the rewards his coaching talent deserves.
 
O'townPhinFan said:
I hear what you're saying. I am a huge Dolfan. Have been for some time now. I look at every year as a new year even with all the BS going on. I will do the same this year as I do every year. New year with a clean slate. Yes there is repeated years of coaches and crap....it happens. I want to win more than anyone including the players I think...lol. But I want to see Cam progress. Build team unity and see our offense finally meet the tenasity out defense has. I have been waiting for it for years now....dating back to Marino. I could follow in the footsteps of most fans and say...trade this, trade that, get rid of Cam after 1 yr if he can get us to the SB. Like I say every year....New year, New players, New attitude and New outlook. Now we can add new coach. I support Cam. He has a 4 yr contract and I will support him every year he is here and is showing improvement. I dont expect to go to the SB his first yr but it would be nice. Miami fans need to take a breather. Good things will happen. They do for every franchise...give it time....thats all I can say.
Click to expand...

I'm in total agreement. While I understand some fans' concerns and cautious optimism due to the coaching-go-round we've had the past few years, I also think that it is way too premature to start considering "what ifs." And it is an exercise in futility to start comparing what Cam did anywhere else, just like it's futile to compare the '85 Bears team's record to this year's team. Basing the future on what happened in the past can be pretty much irrelevant when it comes to sports. There are so many variables. The upcoming season could be really good, really bad, or somewhere in between. I want us to win and win big just as much as everyone else. I'm preparing myself for the fact that it could take awhile, though.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom