I wanna talk about Jay Williams a bit...

ckparrothead

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You know I've been impressed with this guy ever since we traded for him but I know a lot of you don't see it. I just wanted to point out to you what has impressed me so much about him. He was supposed to come in and play DE on run downs, DT or DE on pass downs.

Well ok, he hasn't been all that impressive as a DE against the run (JT is incredible against the run).

BUT as a passrusher, this guy simply does not look like a dude that only got 1 sack last year. Case in point. Against the Titans in scrimmage. We go to a passrush section. Jay Williams moves to DT and easily grabs 2 sacks...like it was nothing.

Against Tampa. I know I saw him on more than one occasion get very close to the QB.

Against the Saints. HE CAUSED THAT FUMBLE that was called back because dumb@ss Jamar Fletcher was holding his WR. Henry Taylor picked up the fumble, but it was #91 Jay Williams coming off a speedrush from LDE, that made the fumble happen. Also against the Saints, he was draped all over Aaron Brooks on one occasion where Brooks had to throw the ball so far into the stands it could have been caught by the upper deck. Counting those two I think he put some serious pressure on the QB 3 times.

In limited action each time.
 

ckparrothead

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And considering how little we've seen of Rob Burnett who has spent more time injured in the training room than on the field its beginning to look like the loss of Daryl Gardener has actually helped this team THIS YEAR, because it forced the coaches to give up a 4th round pick to this stud who is putting pressure on the QB statistically, about as much as Jason Taylor is.

Think of it this way. If DG was still here we'd be somewhat better against the run on 1st and 2nd downs, but our SOLE PASSRUSH would be coming from Jason Taylor...maybe a little from Adewale Ogunleye...maybe a bit from Dave Bowens. Considering the 8 man fronts we're putting in, thats not that good. Now we've got this stud who does nothing but get in the QB's face during limited action...and all the sudden Zach Thomas is calling this the best passrushing defensive line he's seen since he's been to Miami. Coincidence? Would they have been that way were Jay Williams not here? Would we be better off?

I don't know for sure...but I think we may actually be better off because the 8 man fronts can do a lot for the run defense, while only being made possible because of the increased passrush presence. With DG there and no Jay Williams, if we still needed to go to an 8 man front to attain good run defense (which I suspect we would) then we'd be in trouble on play-actions.

Not to mention with DG still here we probably wouldn't have found out about Larry Chester's ability to passrush (which has been a pleasant surprise) because DG would be coming in for him on pass downs.
 

Phinmaster1354

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JT must be more Disciplined!!

I just wanted to mention that you said JT is incredible against the run!!I don't see it that way!! I think he is mediocre against the run simply because he overpursues too much!! He doesn't stay in his responsibility alot of times which is outside containment!! Don't get me wrong, I like JT, he is a hell of a player but he just has to be more disciplined!!
 

dolfan87

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That long run popped by Pittman during the Bucs pre season game, Jason was standing about 6 yards to far outside. If he had kept contain, it would have been a tackle.

No big deal, it happens

87
 

ckparrothead

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Jason Taylor makes more tackles than any lineman in the national football league. His penetration often completely ruins a run. How do you know it was even his job to keep outside containment? From what I read and what I saw, it was Larry Chester who got run over on THAT play. Brock Marion who completely missed a tackle because he didn't wrap up, and Zach Thomas who tripped up and was on the ground as Michael Pittman passed him by. Nowhere did I read, or see, or hear, that anything Jason Taylor did was of primary importance to that Pittman run. As a DE Taylor is incredible against the run, unblockable. Slips into the backfield and disrupts the play all the time, making the RB slam right into places were other players are waiting
 

Muck

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On that Pittman run, JT WAS TRAPPED. The reason why he was so far outside the play was because Keenan McCardell was coming around for the end around. Much like the play we ran so often last year (with McKnight coming around). The WR coming around freezes the DE and makes him respect the possibility of the handoff.

So if you want to be technical, JT DID NOT break containment. He was in the right place. If Larry Chester and Morlon Greenwood don't go for Alstott inside, the play goes for no gain.
 

Muck

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Very true CK. Incidentally, did anyone see the job JT did against Kyle Turley?? SOLID. Especially on that one run. JT made an inside move and Turley totally WHIFFED trying to stop him. JT makes the play on Deuce.
 

Baz

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Boys, if Chester and Bowens do their job, we will have one helluva DL this year. Number 1 pass D + one hulleva DL = pain for other teams. I can't wait......
 

dolphan39

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Originally posted by BMarion31
Boys, if Chester and Bowens do their job, we will have one helluva DL this year. Number 1 pass D + one hulleva DL = pain for other teams. I can't wait......
that is true :jumper:

but if they do not, there goes the #1 pass D because we'll be forced to have a S help out ag. the run, a.k.a. 8 man front, as we have been promised since that embarassment ag. the Ravens last year.
 

ckparrothead

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Well with the passrush we had last year, which is to say not all that much, just JT, we still had the best Pass D in the business. I think we can afford a safety up on the line of scrimmage a few more times helping out against the run and not give up much in Pass D, so long as our pass rush is better...which it most definitely looks to be.
 

Phinmaster1354

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FUNDAMENTALS!!!

Originally posted by ckparrothead
Jason Taylor makes more tackles than any lineman in the national football league. His penetration often completely ruins a run. How do you know it was even his job to keep outside containment? From what I read and what I saw, it was Larry Chester who got run over on THAT play. Brock Marion who completely missed a tackle because he didn't wrap up, and Zach Thomas who tripped up and was on the ground as Michael Pittman passed him by. Nowhere did I read, or see, or hear, that anything Jason Taylor did was of primary importance to that Pittman run. As a DE Taylor is incredible against the run, unblockable. Slips into the backfield and disrupts the play all the time, making the RB slam right into places were other players are waiting
First off I like to say I like Jason Taylor but I have to set some things straight!! Although JT makes alot of plays there are some he whiffs on!! I know he has outside containment because that is the DE #1 job!!First priority!! Push the runner back inside, into containment and DON'T GIVE them the outside!!Secondly, you keep blaming BROCK MARION for missing tackles, let me say this!! If he has to come up and make tackles there is something wrong with our front seven!! BROCK MARION's #1 responsibility is the pass, not the run, he's the free safety!! This is just simple fundamentals of the DEFENSE!! JT is awesome but making him sound like LT is ludicrice!!
 

ckparrothead

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Brock Marion's primary responsibility is to cover in this D, but a close second responsibility for ANY safety is always to run up and make tackles on RBs. It just so happens that in this defense we handicap him a bit by not letting him cheat toward the line of scrimmage. It doesn't mean he has no responsibility for the run. His position, the safety position, is the position that is 2nd most responsible ON THE DEFENSE for making tackles against runners. LBers are the first most responsible. DL are supposed to get penetration and tie up the OL to keep them out of everyone's hair. CBs are supposed to do their best to hold ground and contain toward the middle during a run, also keeping an eye on their WR for the possible HB pass. Safeties are supposed to be CB help on pass plays, and act like linebackers on run plays.

Brock Marion a couple of times now I've seen has been in position to make a stop on a play, for a lot fewer yards than the play ended up gaining because he missed the tackle (including Pittman's big run where Marion could have had him for about 4 yards). Its preseason I know and the bottom line is Marion probably isn't trying too hard cuz he doesn't wanna sacrifice his body...but still, if he had the opportunity to make the tackle and he didnt thats always his fault...ALWAYS. Any missed tackle is the responsibility of the person that missed it.

Jason Taylor is one of the most troublesome DEs to block against the run in the national football league. He disrupts everything and never quits. Try watching some OTHER "good" DE sometime and you'll see what I'm talkin about.
 

Phinmaster1354

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I never said he didn't have to stop the run but MARION has different coverages and blitzes he has to play to so, when you say he just has to help out the CBs, your wrong again! He might in MAN where sometimes be locked on the #2 receiver which is a TE or a slot receiver!! He might have a cover 3 call where he is responsible for the deep middle of the field! A cover 2 where he has the deep half of the field!! BROCK supports the run as GOOD as ANY FREE SAFETY in the league!!!HE'S A TRUE PLAYMAKER and the leader of the BEST SECONDARY in the league!!! Even with a SUBPAR pass rush last year and it was subpar without TRACE last year!! TRACE and JT complimented each other nicely! JT needs another pass rusher to step it up because he is getting double teamed and chipped, this is a concern of the defense! NO PASS RUSH!!
 

finfan54

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Re: JT must be more Disciplined!!

Originally posted by Phinmaster1354
I just wanted to mention that you said JT is incredible against the run!!I don't see it that way!! I think he is mediocre against the run simply because he overpursues too much!! He doesn't stay in his responsibility alot of times which is outside containment!! Don't get me wrong, I like JT, he is a hell of a player but he just has to be more disciplined!!
no way, you are way off. even when he does overpersue, he has the speed to recover bigtime.
 

dolphan39

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all this talk about JT is :topic: JT is a great DE period.


It is the other side that still needs to prove its worth. :rolleyes:
 
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