If Fletcher and Greenwood get beat out... | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

If Fletcher and Greenwood get beat out...

QB - Fiedler, FA
RB - Ricky, Trade
FB - Konrad, Draft
TE - McMichael, Draft
WR - Chambers, Draft
WR - McKnight/Thompson, FA
LT - Dixon, FA
LG - Nails, FA
C - Ruddy, Draft
RG - Perry, FA
RT - Wade, Draft

5 out of 11 starters were drafted, 5 were free agents and one was traded for.

DE - Taylor, Draft
DT - Bowens, Draft
DT - Chester, FA
DE - Ogunleye, Undrafted FA
LB - Seau, Trade
LB - Zach, Draft
LB - Greenwood/Moore, Draft
CB - Surtain, Draft
CB - Madison, Draft
FS - Marion, FA
SS - Knight, FA
S - Freeman, Draft

7 players were drafted(or undrafted FA) if Knight starts, but if somehow freeman starts that is 8 out of 11 starters that were drafted by us. 1 by trade, and 2 or 3 FAs depending on the Knight situation.

out of 22 starters on our roster, at least 12 were drafted by the team. to be honest i have no idea where that would rank us in the league, but my guess is that it would be middle of the pack.
 
Originally posted by Bodzilla29
QB - Fiedler, FA
RB - Ricky, Trade
FB - Konrad, Draft
TE - McMichael, Draft
WR - Chambers, Draft
WR - McKnight/Thompson, FA
LT - Dixon, FA
LG - Nails, FA
C - Ruddy, Draft
RG - Perry, FA
RT - Wade, Draft

5 out of 11 starters were drafted, 5 were free agents and one was traded for.

DE - Taylor, Draft
DT - Bowens, Draft
DT - Chester, FA
DE - Ogunleye, Undrafted FA
LB - Seau, Trade
LB - Zach, Draft
LB - Greenwood/Moore, Draft
CB - Surtain, Draft
CB - Madison, Draft
FS - Marion, FA
SS - Knight, FA
S - Freeman, Draft

7 players were drafted(or undrafted FA) if Knight starts, but if somehow freeman starts that is 8 out of 11 starters that were drafted by us. 1 by trade, and 2 or 3 FAs depending on the Knight situation.

out of 22 starters on our roster, at least 12 were drafted by the team. to be honest i have no idea where that would rank us in the league, but my guess is that it would be middle of the pack.
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Congrats on winning my "completely missed the point" award. Maybe I missed something though...perhaps you can explain how players who were drafted by Jimmy Johnson and HIS staff have any bearing on the abilty of Dave Wannstadt and HIS staff to assess college talent?
 
Originally posted by DannyNoonan






You can disagree on whether or not Minor is a solid contributor, but I think he is fulfilling the roles he was drafted to play: 3rd down back and occasional fill-in/change-of-pace RB. He is actually quite good at both those roles. I also disagree with your desire not to include Ogunleye in the draft count. Clearly the college FA signings that take place the few days after the draft are part of the draft process. If the draft were extended to 12 or 15 rounds, we would have drafted him. He was high enough on our draft boards that we went after him, but we also knew that he would probably go undrafted by the rest of the teams. That's accurate evaluation. Minor and Ogunleye make 5 solid contributors from the past three drafts.

However, I agree with your primary point in this thread...we have had a spotty record in recent years in evaluating college players. One can argue that every teams' batting average should be higher on assessing veteran talent than it is on college talent (as ours is), and that our draft record is similar to many teams. But we should be better at evaluating the talent available to us on draft day if we want to be an elite team that competes for the Super Bowl each year. As it is, we have done enough to be a 2nd-tier team the past few years, but we have yet to make it to the top-tier. Perhaps not hitting on enough draft picks is one reason why we haven't yet made the jump.
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Risk vs Reward. As an undrafted rookie, we didn't expend any picks for him, and had he been a bust, wouldn't have cost us anything. Where I'm concerned is Wann-Spiels ability to judge what a particular candidate is worth. In my opinion they overspent for a lot of players who were busts for thier cost. By definition, an undrafted player can't be a bust.
 
Originally posted by MDFINFAN


That's only one,,plus he's maybe just not a good fit for our system...doesn't mean he's not a good player..1 rd bust for us..maybe someone else's dream DB..but all the other draft picks that were mention either have a hard time starting on this talented team or are bu's...The real question is where would they start on this team with the talent ahead of them...That was the issue I was addressing really...so I think your primus is a little off with how many we keep and start..I say again, over the last 3 years we haven't had many openings for rookies...Can U see where we did..
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What does it matter how well a player would do in another system? We drafted him to play in OUR system. I'd say that in Fletchers case you could call him a success if he did well at the Nickle spot, but he hasn't even held on to that. Greenwood looks like a failure, Minor will never be more than a Special Teams player which was too expensive to spend that draft pick on, and of the rest, there were only the three standouts. I'm not saying that WannSpiel are HORRIBLE at drafting, but compared to their FA ability, they're certainly NOT good.
 
i know your point bro, so check out MY point.....

how in the hell is a draft pick that isn't top 10 supposed to beat out:

RW, Konrad, Chamber, mcMicheal, Dixon, Wade, Nails, JT, Ogun, bowens, Chester, zach, seau, madison, Surtain, Marion, Knight?

how the hell is a 5th or 6th round pick supposed to supplant SUPERIOR TALENT bro?

somebody has already said it.....it is easy to start on a sh!tty team, get to a very good team with an extremely high level of talent and the chances of winning a starting job is REMOTE.....that is how your whole thing is wack....

the way i look at it...wan-spiel have drafted 5 starters, maybe 6 if freeman makes it into the lineup......wade, mcmichael, chambers, ogun, greenwood/moore.......keep in mind that our holdovers from the previous regime are pretty much all standouts(madison, surtain, marion, jt, zach, timbo, dixon, konrad) where is the room for draft picks to make the starting lineup when you factor in free agency?
 
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227


Risk vs Reward. As an undrafted rookie, we didn't expend any picks for him, and had he been a bust, wouldn't have cost us anything. Where I'm concerned is Wann-Spiels ability to judge what a particular candidate is worth. In my opinion they overspent for a lot of players who were busts for thier cost. By definition, an undrafted player can't be a bust.
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Yes, but if your main point is how well WanneSpiel evaluate college talent, then getting a starting-quality DE as a college FA is a fairly strong statement about how they have been able to pick some quality players. Ogunleye's situation is actually evidence that counters your agrument. And I say this even though I agree with you that we need to get better at college-level talent evaluation overall. (oh, and Minor plays more than STs, but thanks for throwing that into the mix...he is a solid 3rd down back, a solid change-of-pace RB, and a solid STs contributor...just what we wanted when we drafted him).
 
Originally posted by DannyNoonan



Yes, but if your main point is how well WanneSpiel evaluate college talent, then getting a starting-quality DE as a college FA is a fairly strong statement about how they have been able to pick some quality players. Ogunleye's situation is actually evidence that counters your agrument. And I say this even though I agree with you that we need to get better at college-level talent evaluation overall. (oh, and Minor plays more than STs, but thanks for throwing that into the mix...he is a solid 3rd down back, a solid change-of-pace RB, and a solid STs contributor...just what we wanted when we drafted him).
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Not if you look at how many other undrafted FA's we picked up in addition to Wally. Every team hits on 1-2 of those every couple of years. They picked Wally when there was no risk involved. It's not like they looked at him and KNEW he was going to be a producer(if they had, they wouldn't have let him go undrafted). Bottom line, every team in the NFL has at least one player starting who went undrafted, and some have 2-3. What we need to assess is how well WannSpiel do when LIMITED by the choice of whther to spend one of a very few available draft picks on a particular player. And when you consider that the players they HAVE taken that were for NEED postions, I just don't see them as having a very good record.
 
Originally posted by Bodzilla29
i know your point bro, so check out MY point.....

how in the hell is a draft pick that isn't top 10 supposed to beat out:

RW, Konrad, Chamber, mcMicheal, Dixon, Wade, Nails, JT, Ogun, bowens, Chester, zach, seau, madison, Surtain, Marion, Knight?

how the hell is a 5th or 6th round pick supposed to supplant SUPERIOR TALENT bro?

somebody has already said it.....it is easy to start on a sh!tty team, get to a very good team with an extremely high level of talent and the chances of winning a starting job is REMOTE.....that is how your whole thing is wack....

the way i look at it...wan-spiel have drafted 5 starters, maybe 6 if freeman makes it into the lineup......wade, mcmichael, chambers, ogun, greenwood/moore.......keep in mind that our holdovers from the previous regime are pretty much all standouts(madison, surtain, marion, jt, zach, timbo, dixon, konrad) where is the room for draft picks to make the starting lineup when you factor in free agency?
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By that logic, we didn't need to draft ANYBODY the last 3 years. The truth of the matter however is that even in THIS years draft, we still had needs which had to be addressed in the 1st few rounds. And we CERTAINLY had needs over the three drafts prior to that. In year One we addressed one need with Wade, but were still left with questions at WR, LT, QB, and LB. We covered one need, but the rest weren't. Year two we had virtually the same group of needs, and covered only WR. In year three we needed help at TE, LB, LT, QB, and CB, and we only covered the TE. There WERE needs that needed to be addressed, and slots that a good rookie could have jumped right in to. I'm not even counting 6th and 7th rounders....I'm just talking about the "impact rounds" that teams have to expect to get a couple of SOLID starters out of each year. So far we've averaged ONE good starter per year, when we should be at 1.5-2 at least. That's what other good teams draft, and so should we.
 
you are juding draft success WAY to early man.......you cannot really judge a draft class until the rookie contracts are up.....unless noone is left on the team of course......

young guys need time to develope so they can replace the older guys.....it doesn't always happen in a year or 2.....

by your logic all players drafted in the early rounds should be ready to contribute and possibly start from day 1.....sorry man, the league doesn't work like that.....especially on good teams....
 
Originally posted by Bodzilla29
you are juding draft success WAY to early man.......you cannot really judge a draft class until the rookie contracts are up.....unless noone is left on the team of course......

young guys need time to develope so they can replace the older guys.....it doesn't always happen in a year or 2.....

by your logic all players drafted in the early rounds should be ready to contribute and possibly start from day 1.....sorry man, the league doesn't work like that.....especially on good teams....
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Actually, according to Wanny it does. Take a look at every interview he's given around draft time since he got here and he'll point out that they look for at least 2-3 players to have an impact/start in their first year. Further, if you're waiting until the rookie contract is up before expecting the player to be a success, why not just draft to trade the player? If you're never going to get impact from a player with a cheap rookie contract, why bother?
 
you can get impact without starting man.....wanny says he wants impact, i don't recall him saying he expected rookies to start....many of our rookies contribute on special teams and in other specialized situations.......starting cannot be the barometer on every pick...natuarally you want high picks to start but it isn't always plausible....
 
All I'm saying is that other teams seem to be able to average 1-2 starters per draft. If we're THAT much deeper in talent than every other team in the NFL than how the heck did we finish out of the playoffs? Bottom line, we haven't had the number of impact players drafted that I would expect from this FO. Feel free to disagree, but that's how I see it.
 
Originally posted by PhinPhan1227
If we're THAT much deeper in talent than every other team in the NFL than how the heck did we finish out of the playoffs?
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Ray Lucas.

Oliver...
 
Originally posted by Oliver


Ray Lucas.

Oliver...
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Ray took us out of the 1st Buffalo game, but the team lost several of those games without his help. Other than the first Buffalo game, blaming ray for all of those losses is a complete cop-out. Again, the bottom line is that this team is NOT perfect, and good rookies have had the chance to make an impact.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: If Fletcher and Greenwood get beat out...

Originally posted by PhinPhan1227



Not if you read the post you won't.
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I did read the post, perhaps you should re-read your own post - you called for better talent evaluators for the draft.

Part of the talent evaluation is to judge whether you can acquire better talent by trading the pick, either for another pick or for a player, than by actually using the pick to select a player.

In that aspect of their job, the Dolphins FO, performed very well IMO.
 
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