If the O-line is a disaster, look back to the offseason

[Fineas]

well there is this funny thing called a salary cap. Brining in players with big contracts that have to ride the pine does not help the team. What this means is that teams cannot just bring in any and everyone willy nilly. Plus the fact that there are other teams that want these player.s

No one said they had to be guys with big contracts. There's the draft, trades, etc. If he didn't do it because he didn't think he'd be able to upgrade without spending too much, that's one thing. But if that's the case, then the current group presumably isn't that bad in the first place.

For years, people have complained about the salary disparity between offense and defense. This year it got even worse.

Offensive additions (cap charge)

Brown (2.7 mill.)
Frerotte (1.05 mill.)
McDougle (750k)
Heath Evans (540k)
Jamar Martin (455k)

TOTAL: $5.495 M

Defensive additions (cap charge)

Carter (2.4 mill.)
Holliday (1.165 mill.)
Traylor (1.090 mill.)
Roth (427k)
Spragan (800k)
M. Edwards (480k)
T. Jones (1.6 mill.)
T. Tillman (840k)
Schulters (665k)

TOTAL: $9.467 M

The Fins spent almost twice as much on D as they did on offense, and used 4 of their 6 draft picks on D, plus the supplemental for Wright.

 

[zephon]

in the "O-line needs to shutup" thread (if i read it correctly), this person was asking me to determine who was available for an O-line overhaul this past offseason...



well, let's see...

the following free agent linemen were available this offseason:

OG Bennie Anderson
OG Joe Andruzzi
OG Cosey Coleman
OG Marco Rivera (among the best in the league)
OT Kareem McKenzie (admittedly, huge contract)
C Casey Rabach (very cheap to Wash.; would have been my choice, positionwise, to upgrade in free agency)
OG Rick DeMulling
OT Fred Miller
OG Roberto Garza
OG Mike Wahle (came really cheap to Carolina)
OG Jermaine Mayberry
OT Oliver Ross
OT Jonas Jennings

some good players in there... but instead, we spend $38 million on a 31-year-old defensive tackle (albeit still a good one)

in the draft: when we took Roth, a guy like RT Marcus Johnson of Mississippi was available... he's taken over the starting job in Minnesota and looks very strong... also Khalif Barnes was there... he dominated North-South game (or one of the postseason all-star games, i forget which one), and will soon start for the Jags...

Roth may be a decent player, but OT, OG or C were areas of desperate need...

You can analyze it all you like and say "well, the draft wasn't deep at position X" or "there wasn't a good enough guard at that slot", etc. etc. ... But, here we are... Still trying to make chicken soup with chicken droppings... If you doubt it's a serious problem because it's "only preseason," have a look at the complaining by the underachieving O-Line players themselves, and the return sniping by the coaches on them for blown assignments, false starts and no real push in the run game this summer....

i'm sure the coaching staff and front office knows what they're doing, long term, but i believe the defense had depth already -- at least in the front seven... and a few capable interior linemen would have made the defense all the fresher... at the very LEAST: we needed a center worth a damn...

don't get me wrong: I love Carter, i have my fingers crossed for Roth, i wish the best for Traylor, i pray Holliday can stay healthy, i hope Donnie Spragan makes plays, i wish Tillman, Tebucky and Shulters all the best...

i just feel that 1 or 2 of those contracts should have gone toward better hogs up front... Casay Rabach, at least...

Prediction: We'll average less than 4.0 yards per carry and allow sacks in the bottom third of the league this year...

I do hope I'm wrong -- In Hudson Houck We Trust!!!

There's one fact that everyone seems to be leaving out here (and hopefully what I'm about to say IS what Saban was thinking)

Future Draft Prospects!

here's the thing. Over the next 2 drafts there is an overwhelming (sp?) amount of talent along the O-Line!.

Next year alone it is possible (although not likely) that there will be 15-20!Offensive Tackles alone who have the talent rating to be drafted in the 1st day (1st 3 rounds) if all the Juniors with top talent come out. ...Now, I said "if" the talented Juniors come out, If they don't, that further proves my point that the O-Line has extremely deep talent for at least 2 more years.

As for the taking of a D-Line in the second last draft, well, again, next years draft is not deep at all at the DE spot (only 2 true blue-chips) and at DT (only 3 true clue-chippers).

As for taking a LB with our 3rd well, I don't recall anyone being upset (although there might be some people who didn't like it) with the fact that we took Crowder...as he really is a blue-chipper (just with injury concerns). BTW, LB over the next 2 years will see talent levels that havent' been seen from that position in a long time as well.

ANYWAY...:).....that's my take on why he went the direction he did in the draft and free agency (with the D-Line).



I only have 2 big gripes (actually 3 but I'm finally a little tired of bringing up the QB position)....thoes 2 are : It took too long for Saban to bring a safety like Schulters in. Granted Lance was a late salary cap cut but he theoretically could have been here sooner and because of the severe complexity of our defensive scheme (and nagging injuries) Lance is behind the learning curve for players who've been in the system all TC (This is also another reason I feel that Saban addressed some def. holes this year.) Players obviously (yep, even vets) need a bit extra time to get the def. down where the offense is less complex.

Anyway guys...that's my take on it. :D

EDIT: I forgot to add....other than S position I was most upset, and still am, that we didn't address the center position. If that means that we needed to put Rex at center sooner or we went after a FA, something should have been done by know. Seth is not the answer at C and the coaching staff is only NOW realizing that. We wasted an entire TC (not really wasted but..) for them to figure that out.

 

[Dol-Fan Dupree]

No one said they had to be guys with big contracts. There's the draft, trades, etc. If he didn't do it because he didn't think he'd be able to upgrade without spending too much, that's one thing. But if that's the case, then the current group presumably isn't that bad in the first place.

For years, people have complained about the salary disparity between offense and defense. This year it got even worse.

Offensive additions (cap charge)

Brown (2.7 mill.)
Frerotte (1.05 mill.)
McDougle (750k)
Heath Evans (540k)
Jamar Martin (455k)

TOTAL: $5.495 M

Defensive additions (cap charge)

Carter (2.4 mill.)
Holliday (1.165 mill.)
Traylor (1.090 mill.)
Roth (427k)
Spragan (800k)
M. Edwards (480k)
T. Jones (1.6 mill.)
T. Tillman (840k)
Schulters (665k)

TOTAL: $9.467 M

The Fins spent almost twice as much on D as they did on offense, and used 4 of their 6 draft picks on D, plus the supplemental for Wright.

You left off Cook and Middleton and Ephram, that should bump it up another million.

A lot of the defense that was brought in was to replace what was leaving. Without bringining anyone in on defense what Miami had was an aging defense with a lot of holes.

 

[ckparrothead]

I agree with the notion that Saban and staff need to be held accountable for not doing anything to upgrade the offensive line talent during the offseason except grabbing McDougle, Damion Cook, and drafting Alabi.

There's no excuses. Other options were there, and particularly after the Surtain trade we are not a team that is really tight up against the salary cap. I know there's going to be lots of apologies out there, but an "executive" decision was made that getting Hudson Houck and a mediocre at best right tackle would be enough to significantly upgrade this OL. If the OL fails, that decision should be criticized, and the coaching staff knows it.

 

[Dol-Fan Dupree]

I agree with the notion that Saban and staff need to be held accountable for not doing anything to upgrade the offensive line talent during the offseason except grabbing McDougle, Damion Cook, and drafting Alabi.

There's no excuses. Other options were there, and particularly after the Surtain trade we are not a team that is really tight up against the salary cap. I know there's going to be lots of apologies out there, but an "executive" decision was made that getting Hudson Houck and a mediocre at best right tackle would be enough to significantly upgrade this OL. If the OL fails, that decision should be criticized, and the coaching staff knows it.

You can't do everything in one season. It at least takes two

 

[ckparrothead]

I agree. They wanted to see what they really had before they tossed out the garbage. All I'm saying is, they could have realized we had nothing but garbage in time to bring it to the curb this offseason.

We signed a whole lot of guys on defense to short one or two year deals. I know there weren't a whole lot of world-beating options out there, but some of that money could have been invested in the offensive line. Whenever Saban was asked about the OL, he pointed to Houck and basically said he expects him to make something out of the guys we have, and we pay him highly so that we don't have to waste cap dollars on the OL and can put them in other areas.

 

[Mauler]

Very nice post PressCoverage. Your listing is on the money. With one of the absolute worst OLines returning from last year, it should have been been looked at more then just hiring a new coach.

 

[DolfanCole]

My friends and I have debated what happened in the draft. Best we can figure, is Spielman wanted to do one thing and Saban another. So, since Rick was f'n up the draft analysis, and Saban kneew it, Saban went with what he knew. Because he couldn't rely on Spielman. That is why I said Saban stuck to what he knew, and why I said we had a bad draft. Nobody cared to ever ask why I said those things. But, now since you all are asking why this and why that, I felt compelled to share.

After draft, Spielman fired, Mueller hired. What more proof do you need, Saban showed his rookie stripes. He did get some talented guys, but that is why all the replacement draftees. He knew D, and he stuck to D. He got good quality players, but nothing beneficial to this team this year.

He had to draft what he knew was good, even if it didnt fit the bill, all because we stuck with the JJ/Wanny era way to long. 03 should of been it. Look no further then Heizenga's dedication, for your answers. None of this reflects badly on Saban, but you must look past the face of things, and look deeper into what is really going on.

Huh?? :confused:

I don't think what you state here regarding Saban and Spielman is correct at all. My guess on what happened is that Saban kept Spielman for the draft because he and his staff had already compiled a lot of helpful data on the prospects. Saban then used this data in addition to his own and selected who he wanted. I don't think it was a struggle on who to select between Saban and Spielman at all. I also think that the draft went very well in that the players that were selected have so far shown to be quality players.

Now, the reason that Spielman was fired and Mueller hired has nothing to do with issues with the draft IMO. I think Spielman had made to many moves that were questionable, plus Spielman was not Saban's guy. So, there may have been a personality conflict, whatever.

But, I don't agree with your assessment at all.

 

[Fineas]

You left off Cook and Middleton and Ephram, that should bump it up another million.

A lot of the defense that was brought in was to replace what was leaving. Without bringining anyone in on defense what Miami had was an aging defense with a lot of holes.

I also could have added Crowder, Daniels, Wright and Vickerson, which would have bumped up the defensive numbers. The offense that was brought in was also to replace the offense that was leaving, e.g., Fiedler, Konrad, etc. Fiedler's contract still counts $2.7 mill. against this year's cap. The fact still remains that Saban has put much more emphasis and money on the defensive side of the ball.

 

[zephon]

I agree with the notion that Saban and staff need to be held accountable for not doing anything to upgrade the offensive line talent during the offseason except grabbing McDougle, Damion Cook, and drafting Alabi.

There's no excuses. Other options were there, and particularly after the Surtain trade we are not a team that is really tight up against the salary cap. I know there's going to be lots of apologies out there, but an "executive" decision was made that getting Hudson Houck and a mediocre at best right tackle would be enough to significantly upgrade this OL. If the OL fails, that decision should be criticized, and the coaching staff knows it.

while, yes, Saban should be held accountable (he IS the coach and GM) I don't think it's all fixed in one season or even 2 for that matter (you've already said you understand that...I'm not pushing it, this statement goes to what I'm about to say :) )

Saying that I think it'll actually take 2 years, IMO, it's the Center position specifically that I'm most bothered by.

I honestly feel that we have enough talent at the OT position to be very good...but not great..so I'm fine with OT. It's the interior of our line where we are most hurting.

As much as I think Jeno is a solid anchor at LG, I have to believe that he's on a 1 year tryout right now. He's making too much money to be average (what he was last season).

RG was finally upgraded in Middleton but he's older and has injury issues. I'll be happy if we get 2 good years from him (which I think is what Saban was also thinking). Hadnot (everyone's favorite :) ) has some skills but obviously isn't there yet. If he was, at RG or at C, then there wouldn't be any question and he'd already have a "secure" starter spot at one of those 2 positions.

McKinney, well, the coaching staff has spent the enitre TC to date working with him only to realize that he's not the answer at C. He's smart enough (which is why I think his status is taking so long) but he just doesn't have the strength to anchor and even hold his ground...let alone get a big push.

I'm sure that part of the reason that the Oline staff has.....wait....you know.....as much as I like to think I'm an armchair scout, I'm not actually a Pro (pro as in I get paid to do this job) coach or talent evaluator. And unnfortunately, I've only met one of those guys on this site, at least noe who I'm positive visits this site :) So none of us know more than Saban and Houck about what our OLine should be composed of. Of course, we've all got our ideas, which I would like to think are at least fairly un-biased and somewhat informed ....

.....I hate saying this because I feel some people take it the wrong way BUT we are simply going to have to trust Saban to make the good choices. That in NO way means that we should blindly follow or fail to constructively critisize his decisions...we should...we pay his salary! But Saban's a guy who 95% of us agreed with H.Wayne and said he's the guy we want.

So, frpppphllll. :) the last 2 paragragraphs drifted from my "beginning" analysis of our OLine issues but I basically feel that the interior of the OLine is in most need of "quick" improvement (quick as in "as soon as possible" or "immediately"). The OT position is average currently with the talent to become much better than average. Next year's draft will allow us to focus more on the OLine as the 1st day talent is the best and deepest in at least the last 10 years. (closest was 2001 I think when 4 Oline total went in the 1st round but next year will blow that away)...If we get the opporunity to get an elite OT (we should as it's possible that 5 and mabye 6 [jean-Giles being the 6th who's a G\T] get drafted in the 1st) we should do it. Now, if a QB like Leinhart (not likely) or Jacobs (much more likely but not a given) are available to us...Of course we take either of them....If not, then OLine should be our 1st pick in next years draft.

 

[zephon]

Huh?? :confused:

I don't think what you state here regarding Saban and Spielman is correct at all. My guess on what happened is that Saban kept Spielman for the draft because he and his staff had already compiled a lot of helpful data on the prospects. Saban then used this data in addition to his own and selected who he wanted. I don't think it was a struggle on who to select between Saban and Spielman at all. I also think that the draft went very well in that the players that were selected have so far shown to be quality players.

Now, the reason that Spielman was fired and Mueller hired has nothing to do with issues with the draft IMO. I think Spielman had made to many moves that were questionable, plus Spielman was not Saban's guy. So, there may have been a personality conflict, whatever.

But, I don't agree with your assessment at all.

no kidding.....Litho...I think you're a bit off on the assesment of the Saban\Speilman relationship.

While I disagree with you ,Chuckcole, in that I dont think that Rick's past moves had bearing on Rick being fired, I agree with our 100% on the fact that Rick simply wasn't a "Saban" guy....truly think that is a "fact"!

In not going to get into the whole Rick\Wanny\Saban\Mueller thing again...as it's been played out long ago, I just think that you're dead on in that Speilman was let go because he simply wasn't a Saban guy and Little Nicky wanted to cut as many ties as was reasonable with the former regime.

 

[Shouright]

I think Saban's following New England's plan of getting linemen cheap and then developing them with good coaching and a good offensive scheme. Then again New England drafted Logan Mankins (a guard) in the 1st round this year. We've neglected the line for years. I bet if we researched it we wouldn't find ONE team that's spent one or fewer #1 or #2 picks on the O line and signed no former pro-bowl linemen in the past five years. Not one. All we've done in the past five years is draft Carey.

Jamar Fletcher and Eddie Moore?

Should've been offensive linemen instead.

 

[Fineas]

I think Saban's following New England's plan of getting linemen cheap and then developing them with good coaching and a good offensive scheme. Then again New England drafted Logan Mankins (a guard) in the 1st round this year. We've neglected the line for years. I bet if we researched it we wouldn't find ONE team that's spent one or fewer #1 or #2 picks on the O line and signed no former pro-bowl linemen in the past five years. Not one. All we've done in the past five years is draft Carey.

Jamar Fletcher and Eddie Moore?

Should've been offensive linemen instead.

I think you answered your own question. New England, until this year (which obviously didn't help them win 3 Super Bowls), hadn't taken an OL No. 1 since 1999. Dallas hasn't done it since 1981 and won several Super Bowls since then. The Giants haven't done it since 1999. The Ravens haven't taken an OL in the first round since 1996. Denver took one in 2003, but hadn't taken an OL in the first between 1995 and 2003 (but won 2 Super Bowls in that span). Jacksonville hasn't done it since Boselli in 1995. SF went from 1987 to 2003 without taking an OL in the 1st round.

When the Fins have taken OLs high, the results have been less than spectacular: Carey, Milner, Andrew Greene, Wade Smith, McKinney, Ruegemer, etc.

The fact is that many of the better lines in the NFL are filled with late round draft picks.

 

[zephon]

When the Fins have taken OLs high, the results have been less than spectacular: Carey, Milner, Andrew Greene, Wade Smith, McKinney, Ruegemer, etc.

The fact is that many of the better lines in the NFL are filled with late round draft picks.

while I agree with you for the most part...not all our Oline picks made high in the draft have been total busts (you do say less than spectacular which is why I said I agree with you for the most part).

I don't think that Carey can be labeled anytihng yet. He simply didn't play enough last year to warrant any type of grade. Yet this year it looks as if he'll be the starter at one of the OT spots. It's takes 3 years to truly grade a draft pick.....I think it may take actually another year or 2 to accurately grade an Oline pick.

Milner and Greene were obsious busts as they were taken in rd 1 and 2 respectively...the odd thing about them was that they were actually fiar players....but...they BOTH had degenerative health issues (Milner with his spine narrowing and Greene with his Knees) They were out of the league in 5 years (a little less actually but..) not because they couldn't do the job but because they had to retire for health reasons. *thinking back, Shula dombed on them because I think he tried to look past the degenerative issues and took them on talent alone.....that and well, he thought he was going to pull a Webb and Simms move that he got a fews years earlier.....

Wade Smith...a 3rd round pick who started at LT his rookie year and played average then regressed badly his second year. Gets moved to Center (which i thought was a fantastic move by the coaching staff) and then breaks his arm...Wade is one of those guys that I'm talking about when I say it will take an additional year or 2 beyond the standard 3 to grade a draft pick. Because he was taken in the 3rd and not a 1st round pick....I'm holding onto the "bust" reference for now.

McKinney...another 3rd round pick (I think or was he taken in the 5th?) who's been in the league what...4 or 5 years now. He's another guy who's taken some time to get a read on. And it's not a very good book. Seth is a spot starter\ good backup. He won't hurt your team as long as he doesn't have to start for an extended period of time but keeps some value in that he can play C and both G postions in a pinch. If Seth's was a 3rd round pick then he's not a bust but round 3 for a backup\spot starter is too high for a guy (if he was taken in the 5th..I just can't remember) then I feel he's equal value for where he was taken.

Grey Ruegemer...sucked with us. I think he was taken in the 4th round. He actually played fairly well with NE one year and I believe he got a ring (although I might be mistaken). Again though...If he was taken later than the 3rd I just don't think of them as busts....just as "less than spectacular" :)

I mentioned them before but Webb and Simms were obviously our best "hits" among our highly drafted Oline (they were actually a "hit" no matter the position having been take Round 1 and 2 respectively)....


huh...I just realized I have no idea why I went into this much detail about these players.....I wasn't even trying to make a point as I said I pretty much agreed with you...well, I've written too much know to just delete it so....:)

 

[vinivedivichi]

This is actually one of the more thoughtful threads I've seen on here in a while. A nice read thus far.

Besides the center postition, I still believe we are eventually going to have a decent offensive line with the guys we have now. I know there is some hysteria with the preseason games thus far, as well as Saban's comments, but as was pointed out earlier, we actually have talented players. They played well in the final few games last year, and I think they'll be even better this year. IMO our biggest problem so far has been missed assignments, and that's gonna happen in the preseason-especially with a new offensive system and new line coach.

Should Saban have brought in some extra guys on the line?? Maybe, but it's hard to argue with the decisions he's made. The DL was getting really sparse after Chester/Bowens went down, and the secondary needed help after the Surtain trade. The draft was a weak one for offensive linemen, and the linemen that hit the market for the most part were overpriced. Anyone that he brought in would've had a hard time competing with the guys we currently have.