In Evaluating Lt In The Draft...... | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

In Evaluating Lt In The Draft......

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dougfinsfan72

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In its search for a LT, do you think, or is it even allowed, that the Dolphins have Jason Taylor go up against these LT Draft prospects to get a better gauge of how good they are?

Also wouldn't it be wise to test the wide receivers and defensive backs in a similar fashion, against your best player at the opposing position of your draft prospect?

I see that the Redskins are taking QB Jason Campbell with them for their tryout with Calvin Johnson and/or Ginn Jr.
 
dougfinsfan72 said:
In its search for a LT, do you think, or is it even allowed, that the Dolphins have Jason Taylor go up against these LT Draft prospects to get a better gauge of how good they are?

Also wouldn't it be wise to test the wide receivers and defensive backs in a similar fashion, against your best player at the opposing position of your draft prospect?

I see that the Redskins are taking QB Jason Campbell with them for their tryout with Calvin Johnson and/or Ginn Jr.
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My personal, humble opinion is that this mad love for Staley is out of control. He's fast and quick, but that's not enough to justify taking a guy so high. My opinion is based on seeing him play one game, so take it for what it's worth. Against second tier competition, Staley did not dominate. #40? Sure. Trade down? Why not. I would take Ginn, Levi Brown, Willis, Bowe, or Meachem over Staley. Roll the bones with Doug Free in the 3rd if you want an athletic LT. No thank you at #9. As to your point, I would love to see Staley go up against JT, but there's a problem: like Dwight Stephenson, JT makes EVERYBODY look bad (except Jonathan Ogden). Fred Smerlas was a heck of a NT. But he didn't look so hot when playing against Stephenson. JT against Staley? Bring a couple of lunch buckets, Joey. It's gonna be a long day.
 
And my personal opinion is that Staley could very much be worth the #9 pick. At least, I rate him as worthy of that pick as Joe Thomas.

There are as many unknowns about both guys, in my opinion, as far as their transition to the LT position goes.

The things you have to like about Staley that make him worthy of the #9 pick:

1. The quickest feet on an offensive line to come out in decades, possibly EVER. One longtime scout openly said he's never seen an offensive lineman have a workout like him.

2. Long arms, ideal at 34.5 inches.

3. Interviews are reported to be fantastic, for months now. It is impossible to overstate how important this is to an OL. No offensive lineman is good enough when he comes out to be top tier in the NFL. None. They all have a physical and mental learning curve. The guys that impress the heck out of you in interviews tend to be the guys that can ascend those learning curves.

4. On tape he's a natural zone blocker.

5. His upper body is strong, it isn't weak. It is the weakest part of his game on a relative basis but that doesn't make it weak on an absolute basis.

6. He's shown the ability to gain weight in the gym through diet and exercise from about 235 pounds to 305 pounds without losing speed or explosion. Again, it is impossible to overstate the importance of this. At 305 pounds, this is not the guy you want on the blind side. The same goes for Tony Ugoh at 301 pounds. The same may even be true of Joe Thomas at 311 pounds. It is certainly true of guys like James Marten (6'8", 309 lbs), Adam Koets (6'5", 298 lbs), Dane Uperesa (6'5", 309 lbs), etc. The only tackles that really might already be at the appropriate weight are Doug Free (6'6", 324 lbs) and Levi Brown (6'6", 323 lbs). So when you're projecting weight gain, you have to realize a lot of these guys are going to gain weight and lose speed on an average level, which will make them unattractive as pro NFL offensive tackles. The ones that are MOST LIKELY to be able to do it are going to be the ones that have a history showing a marked ability to do so. In Staley's case, the dramatic weight gain while not only not losing speed, but he may have actually GAINED some speed...what it shows is commitment to excellence. That is your primary conclusion. Work like that shows a tremendous work ethic, a willingness to sacrifice in the short run for long run gains. It is part of the reason he has been so impressive in interviews.

Basically we've not seen the best of Joe Staley yet, and yet what he has already shown in terms of his wide base, incredibly disciplined pad level, his power and especially his feet...are already NFL caliber. The NFL has every reason to believe that Joe Staley will get better....and that isn't always true about every prospect. That is what puts him over the top as worthy of a top 10 pick.

And that is why I do not believe anyone is getting ahead of themselves if they think Miami could draft him at #9.
 
There's no doubt Staley is higher in my book. Brown surprised me to be honest. I never expected him to perform so poorly at the combine. I expected him to come in with a 5.15 or so 40, a couple more reps on the bench, a much quicker shuttle, and look great at his drills. That's the kind of momentum he had after the Senior Bowl.

If he had been able to do that he would be the consensus pick to Arizona. Instead he went COMPLETELY in the other direction.
 
Would be one thing if he recovered at his pro day and ran better numbers, but he didn't even bother to re-do any of those drills at his pro day...which suggests that his training results approximated what he did at the Combine and he did not have any reason to think he'd significantly improve on them.
 
Bewildering really for a guy many felt was athletic. He's the opposite of athletic in my book. He might turn out to be a great right tackle, but as a left tackle he's going to have a little trouble with the lack of quickness he showed.

The one thing about tackle is that the best players usually have the best physical tools unlike quarterback in many cases.
 
I would love to be able to trade down a few spots, pick up an extra 3rd or 2nd rounder and take Staley.
 
I'm not so sure Levi Brown can't play LT in the NFL despite the combine numbers. Hudson Houck thinks Vernon Carey can play LT, and Carey can't be more mobile than Brown.
 
LostInPatsLand said:
I'm not so sure Levi Brown can't play LT in the NFL despite the combine numbers. Hudson Houck thinks Vernon Carey can play LT, and Carey can't be more mobile than Brown.
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A bit of a "yes, but..." answer to this one. Carey was a good 12 pounds heavier than Levi Brown, and ran his 40 in 5.33 seconds to Brown's 5.40 seconds. He also did a 28 inch vertical to Brown's 25.5 inch vertical.

On the other hand Brown's 4.89 shuttle was better than Carey's 5.0, and his 7.87 cone was better than Carey's 8.10...

But in all seriousness, yes Carey can play left tackle, but he's not a top notch left tackle...and if the the best prediction on Brown is to be another Vernon Carey, then why would anyone be talking about him in the top 15?
 
I'm not high on Joe Staley. I watched the senior bowl where he went against DE Jay Moore. Moore had 2 sacks and 2 QB pressures. One of those pressures forced the QB to fumble and the other an incompletion. Staley looked terrible.
 
Ludacris said:
I'm not high on Joe Staley. I watched the senior bowl where he went against DE Jay Moore. Moore had 2 sacks and 2 QB pressures. One of those pressures forced the QB to fumble and the other an incompletion. Staley looked terrible.
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3 sacks, and 2 of them were straight up zone blocking miscommunication errors. Simply put, Staley thought he had fire zone blocking from the backs to take on Jay Moore, and he was wrong...and nobody even knows whether Staley made the mistake there or the backs did. But what we do know is that it is difficult to install a zone blocking protection scheme in one week of time, and you will notice that pretty much every Senior Bowl team coached by Norv Turner (and there have been quite a few of them) do not do well during the game itself because of that issue, among others (some others being a sneaking suspicion I have that he intentionally tosses certain players into difficult situations to let everyone see if they can rise to the occasion).

The only sack that Staley allowed where he actually ENGAGED in a block, was to Jay Moore on a bull rush. Protection against the bull rush has been long identified as Staley's primary weakness. That comes as no suprise to anyone.

After the game, several scouts told TFY that Staley had solidified his spot in the first round of the draft.
 
ckparrothead said:
A bit of a "yes, but..." answer to this one. Carey was a good 12 pounds heavier than Levi Brown, and ran his 40 in 5.33 seconds to Brown's 5.40 seconds. He also did a 28 inch vertical to Brown's 25.5 inch vertical.

On the other hand Brown's 4.89 shuttle was better than Carey's 5.0, and his 7.87 cone was better than Carey's 8.10...

But in all seriousness, yes Carey can play left tackle, but he's not a top notch left tackle...and if the the best prediction on Brown is to be another Vernon Carey, then why would anyone be talking about him in the top 15?
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Hmm. I wish I could study more tape on Brown. I've watched him only closely in the senior bowl, and I liked his ability to be able to stay in front of his man. (He did this all but one time). I know his numbers weren't great at the combine, but I'd focus mostly on how well he was able to slide and stay in front of his man during college.
 
LostInPatsLand said:
Hmm. I wish I could study more tape on Brown. I've watched him only closely in the senior bowl, and I liked his ability to be able to stay in front of his man. (He did this all but one time). I know his numbers weren't great at the combine, but I'd focus mostly on how well he was able to slide and stay in front of his man during college.
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What I would say to that is, part of the reason they do these kinds of measurements are to see how much of a guy's potential was being maxed out at the college level to do what he did.

For instance, with the poor workouts of Levi Brown's, there is a very good chance that he was able to do an adequate job playing left tackle in college but could not do so in the pros because the defensive ends he will be facing on a regular basis in the pros are all better than anything he faced in college.

In other words, every guy has to get better in order to face NFL players instead of college players...and the poor numbers for Brown suggest that he really might not be able to get much better.

There's a certain amount of doing enough to get the job done going on with these kinds of positions. What you are hoping is to find a guy with tremendous athletic potential that tells you that at the college level he used only 85% of his athleticism to handle these defensive ends but he's still got some athleticism to spare so that when he goes to the pros and faces up with much, much better defensive ends, he may be able to get the job done by using 100% of his athletic ability.

With Levi Brown, and such poor movement and running skills, you may have to think that in order to stay in front of these college DEs, he actually had to use 100% of his athletic ability...and he doesn't have any more to give when they get better.

At least, that's the FEAR. None of this is any kind of guarantee. I'm just outlining the specific fear that the poor workout #'s generate.
 
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