Is it possible..?

[Fish-Head]

To have a discussion about the Running Game based on its merits alone? Can we accept that we are a run based team that has yet to establish a run mentality? Now can we accept that the lack of the deep threat no matter if it is CP's or the WR's fault IS affecting that ability? YES..? OK NOW let's talk the running game...

I think that the effort to 'simplify' our offense for a new OL and its youth has actually resulted in the opposition's ability to simplify their gameplan against us. No surprises there... But single WR sets? Two tight ends? Aren't we just wellcoming the 'stacked box'..?

One effective way to attack the box is to spread the formation and force the 'D' to open up... PLEASE NO REFERENCES TO PENNINGTON HERE... I just want to talk about the merits of the run game ALONE...

Next... Another thing I think has been overlooked is that R&R are very similar types of runners... Punishing first contact guys... Meaning that no matter how much we rotate them in and out the defence does not have to change to defend... Once you have effectively stopped one, there is a very good chance you can stop the other... Once again we are simplifying the defenseive gameplan... Are there ways to create mismatches?

Bizarre thought, but what about Ronnie in the slot?

What are some of the ways you guys think (again no Pennigton stuff please) that we can creatively use our personnel to attack the stacked box WITH THE RUN? Right now I think we are making it easy for defenders...

 

[Fins05:NewHope]

The other thing i think we make easy for defenders is how we run the shotgun. Everytime, Penny lifts his leg, screams out something more, the center Satele looks under his butt, Penny lifts his leg again, Satele faces the D-line and right after Satele lifts his head back up, he hikes the ball. If you watch that, you can see every Defender reading this like an open book, and they can jump the gun and get that extra step. Not just one guy but all guys rushing in know when its gonna be hiked. I say change that up a bit.

 

[Fish-Head]

The other thing i think we make easy for defenders is how we run the shotgun. Everytime, Penny lifts his leg, screams out something more, the center Satele looks under his butt, Penny lifts his leg again, Satele faces the D-line and right after Satele lifts his head back up, he hikes the ball. If you watch that, you can see every Defender reading this like an open book, and they can jump the gun and get that extra step. Not just one guy but all guys rushing in know when its gonna be hiked. I say change that up a bit.

Actually we have stuck with the play action through thick and thin, I wonder if we don't move to the shotgun more, even run out of it... at least show 'pass'...

I agree it seems that so much of what we have done to simplify the game for the young guys has actually hurt us.

 

[GoonBoss]

Well, right now we simply don't have the guns on the O Line to impose our will on a stacked box. We just don't. The injury to Thomas helps assure that. Formations can help this, but, honestly, if teams aren't afraid of your passing ability, that won't help either. Part of the problem is a Zone Blocking scheme is being employed (from the limited snaps I've seen). Zone blocking works well in pass pro, but, generally struggles in the running game, or, at least a power running game.

You cannot really talk about one aspect of the offense without includeing the totality of the offense. The box will remain stacked and, the run game will continue to fail until we can get some people unbalanced. This insludes taking some shots down the field. Even screens and draws won't work unless there is a threat of going over thier heads.

I'm not blameing Pennington for this, nor Ginn. I lay the blame squarely at Dan Henning, and, by association, Sparano. At some point Sparano has to grab the reigns from Henning before he does irreperable damage. If Sparano lets this garbage play calling continue, he's just as much at fault.

 

[Fish-Head]

Well, right now we simply don't have the guns on the O Line to impose our will on a stacked box. We just don't. The injury to Thomas helps assure that. Formations can help this, but, honestly, if teams aren't afraid of your passing ability, that won't help either. Part of the problem is a Zone Blocking scheme is being employed (from the limited snaps I've seen). Zone blocking works well in pass pro, but, generally struggles in the running game, or, at least a power running game.

You cannot really talk about one aspect of the offense without includeing the totality of the offense. The box will remain stacked and, the run game will continue to fail until we can get some people unbalanced. This insludes taking some shots down the field. Even screens and draws won't work unless there is a threat of going over thier heads.

I'm not blameing Pennington for this, nor Ginn. I lay the blame squarely at Dan Henning, and, by association, Sparano. At some point Sparano has to grab the reigns from Henning before he does irreperable damage. If Sparano lets this garbage play calling continue, he's just as much at fault.

Actually I couldn't agree more... I think Henning has been vanilla in his playcalling and done very little in the way of creativity to utilize his personnel.

I think he needs to move people around as the stacked box is vulnerable to mismatches which is why I had the seemingly bizarre suggestion of moving Ronnie into the slot. Sounds strange but actually he has soft hands and getting receptions, even short ones, to him behind the line and he would cause havoc with safeties trying to bring him down.

I just have yet to see anything surprising... even a gag play could help... Didn't Ginn play QB in high school??? Hmmm... Even a hurry up offense can help to keep a defense off balance...

I agree totally I think right now Henning is causing us much more damage then Pennington or our WR's.

 

[GoonBoss]

Actually I couldn't agree more... I think Henning has been vanilla in his playcalling and done very little in the way of creativity to utilize his personnel.

I think he needs to move people around as the stacked box is vulnerable to mismatches which is why I had the seemingly bizarre suggestion of moving Ronnie into the slot. Sounds strange but actually he has soft hands and getting receptions, even short ones, to him behind the line and he would cause havoc with safeties trying to bring him down.

I just have yet to see anything surprising... even a gag play could help... Didn't Ginn play QB in high school??? Hmmm... Even a hurry up offense can help to keep a defense off balance...

I agree totally I think right now Henning is causing us much more damage then Pennington or our WR's.

I think Ronnie's main strength is actually catching the ball and, punishing smaller defenders in space, or makeing them miss. Problem is; Henning won't even put him on the field on third down consistantly.

 

[Fish-Head]

I think Ronnie's main strength is actually catching the ball and, punishing smaller defenders in space, or makeing them miss. Problem is; Henning won't even put him on the field on third down consistantly.

I don't know why he doesn't try things like that... screens to Ronnie are too slow and they are in the flats so he has three guys on him before he turns upfield... Start him closer to the line and let him catch it in positive yardage then steamroll the safeties...

He seems content to just take three straight shots at the wall of defenders and then try to regroup only to do it again. Then throw the white flag... 'We can't run, put it in the air'... What is creative about it?

You can be a power run team, living off of play action and still creative...

Seems to me Ricky is built for attacking the corner but our wide plays seem so slow to develop, they are over before they begin... (I must admit I have noticed Ricky going down easier then I have ever seen him... Seems the slightest contact and he is in the grass..).

Dive plays, no counts, Qb sprintouts, move the pocket and utilize the versatility of your players all are ways to ATTACK... Truth be told our offense looks more defensive in its approach.

 

[BobDole]

To have a discussion about the Running Game based on its merits alone? Can we accept that we are a run based team that has yet to establish a run mentality? Now can we accept that the lack of the deep threat no matter if it is CP's or the WR's fault IS affecting that ability? YES..? OK NOW let's talk the running game...

I think that the effort to 'simplify' our offense for a new OL and its youth has actually resulted in the opposition's ability to simplify their gameplan against us. No surprises there... But single WR sets? Two tight ends? Aren't we just wellcoming the 'stacked box'..?

One effective way to attack the box is to spread the formation and force the 'D' to open up... PLEASE NO REFERENCES TO PENNINGTON HERE... I just want to talk about the merits of the run game ALONE...

Next... Another thing I think has been overlooked is that R&R are very similar types of runners... Punishing first contact guys... Meaning that no matter how much we rotate them in and out the defence does not have to change to defend... Once you have effectively stopped one, there is a very good chance you can stop the other... Once again we are simplifying the defenseive gameplan... Are there ways to create mismatches?

Bizarre thought, but what about Ronnie in the slot?

What are some of the ways you guys think (again no Pennigton stuff please) that we can creatively use our personnel to attack the stacked box WITH THE RUN? Right now I think we are making it easy for defenders...

the basic theme i get from your post is to try new things - and that makes sense. put ronnie in the slot. run out of 3 WR sets. do something to keep the defense guessing - and out of the box - to allow the backs to take a breath before they get out of the backfield. if it's broke then fix it.

the o line hasn't geled yet - which is obviously huge. they aren't playing well together just yet. i don't know what the deal is but we were playing much better last year at the same time with much less talent. it will happen - soon hopefully. i think the coaching staff will wait for the o line to play as a unit before they begin messing with the offensive play calling.

but we have to throw the ball 20 plus yards a few times a game - even if it is out of bounds - to keep the defense honest. they have no reason not to stack the box. who cares who it is and how strong their arm is - if the defense doesn't respect you then make them. have ginn run a fly pattern up the sideline a few times a game and throw it so it gets caught or goes out of bounds.

i have a feeling the coaching staff was taken by surprise on sunday - not respecting arizona and over estimating the fins' ability. this notion is heavily supported by the play calling on offense and defense. man coverage
on fitz and bolden? in what galaxy was that gonna work out for us? i particularly liked the whole 'let's put ayodele on bolden with no safety help' idea right out of the gates. and to top it off, the same 3 running plays over and over again that isn't working. unbelievable.

basically, if the running game continues to struggle then change needs take place. play calling, schemes, whatever. it is still very early so no reason for any drastic change just yet - but you are thinking along the right lines.

 

[GoonBoss]

I don't know why he doesn't try things like that... screens to Ronnie are too slow and they are in the flats so he has three guys on him before he turns upfield... Start him closer to the line and let him catch it in positive yardage then steamroll the safeties...

He seems content to just take three straight shots at the wall of defenders and then try to regroup only to do it again. Then throw the white flag... 'We can't run, put it in the air'... What is creative about it?

You can be a power run team, living off of play action and still creative...

Seems to me Ricky is built for attacking the corner but our wide plays seem so slow to develop, they are over before they begin... (I must admit I have noticed Ricky going down easier then I have ever seen him... Seems the slightest contact and he is in the grass..).

Dive plays, no counts, Qb sprintouts, move the pocket and utilize the versatility of your players all are ways to ATTACK... Truth be told our offense looks more defensive in its approach.

Quite rightly put. From what I've seen we are unable or unwilling to attack. This is disaster in big boy football. Actually a power running play action based football team is what I love more than just about anything else....We simply do not have the guns. I think we could be trying it better though. I'm willing to give Sparano some slack, but, Henning is, IMO, incompetant.

 

[Fish-Head]

the basic theme i get from your post is to try new things - and that makes sense. put ronnie in the slot. run out of 3 WR sets. do something to keep the defense guessing - and out of the box - to allow the backs to take a breath before they get out of the backfield. if it's broke then fix it.

the o line hasn't geled yet - which is obviously huge. they aren't playing well together just yet. i don't know what the deal is but we were playing much better last year at the same time with much less talent. it will happen - soon hopefully. i think the coaching staff will wait for the o line to play as a unit before they begin messing with the offensive play calling.

but we have to throw the ball 20 plus yards a few times a game - even if it is out of bounds - to keep the defense honest. they have no reason not to stack the box. who cares who it is and how strong their arm is - if the defense doesn't respect you then make them. have ginn run a fly pattern up the sideline a few times a game and throw it so it gets caught or goes out of bounds.

i have a feeling the coaching staff was taken by surprise on sunday - not respecting arizona and over estimating the fins' ability. this notion is heavily supported by the play calling on offense and defense. man coverage
on fitz and bolden? in what galaxy was that gonna work out for us? i particularly liked the whole 'let's put ayodele on bolden with no safety help' idea right out of the gates. and to top it off, the same 3 running plays over and over again that isn't working. unbelievable.

basically, if the running game continues to struggle then change needs take place. play calling, schemes, whatever. it is still very early so no reason for any drastic change just yet - but you are thinking along the right lines.

Well put.

 

[Fish-Head]

Quite rightly put. From what I've seen we are unable or unwilling to attack. This is disaster in big boy football. Actually a power running play action based football team is what I love more than just about anything else....We simply do not have the guns. I think we could be trying it better though. I'm willing to give Sparano some slack, but, Henning is, IMO, incompetant.

Your point about the OL earlier resonates... The key ingredient in the power game and we don't have it... yet. The loss of Thomas really did hurt.

it's just the complete lack of willingness to force the defense to react to anything... I really do think that having two power runners with such an overlap in skills is actually a liability unless you find ways of using them differently...

People are up in arms over the fact that neither Ronnie or Ricky can find a rhythm and lost in the argument is the fact that the defense does not have to scheme either differently and we seem content to let it happen.