Is Vonnie Holliday being asked to gain weight? Our newest Nose Tackle... | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Is Vonnie Holliday being asked to gain weight? Our newest Nose Tackle...

For us putting Holliday at DT gives me concerns. We need Holliday to play DE not DT. And if we move a DE to DT, then it will have to be Carter.
 
Interesting..... It will be interesting to see if he can put on 40 lbs and play the position. I personally thought D. Bowens would be cut and Holliday would rotate DE along with Carter and JT would rotate with Roth..... our Dline has been confusing me as of lately. Interesting writeup.
 
Good theory. Maybe Saban envisions Traylor/Chester being the main nose tackle. But in the 4-3, we still need another DT, so Holliday would then play the other DT position alongside Traylor/Chester. Kind of like a weakside DT, then in 3-4 alignment he could play one of the ends.
 
ckparrothead said:
Let's get this part straight because some people don't realize that when we talk about NOSE TACKLE, that is not a term that is limited strictly to the 3-4 defense. I know the Phins will use mostly 4-3 fronts, and switch into and out of the 3-4. BUT, even on their 4-3 fronts, they will make use of a nose tackle...on almost every play. If this confuses you, please see this article:

http://www.phins.com/articles05/3-4defense.php

Though this article was written a long time before anything became clear about Saban's defense through the traditional media, I have found this article to be DEAD ON RIGHTS with our personnel moves...including how Jason Taylor will be played, how Zach Thomas will be played (weakside linebacker), and how Junior and Crowder will be played. Anyway...that said...


There's a lot of chatter and chirping among the local media about seeing Vonnie Holliday play the NT position during public mini-camps.

I guess I could see why they won't let this issue just drop. Holliday is a 6'5", 290 pound defensive end, and to see him playing nose tackle just blows peoples' minds.

Holliday himself just explained it away saying his playbook is bigger than any he's seen before, and he plays all positions on the line.

But, you know what, I haven't seen the media talking about Kevin Carter at NT, or Matt Roth, or David Bowens, or Jason Taylor.

The media has taken it as something to just criticize blindly, a defensive end not just playing defensive tackle, but NOSE tackle? I mean, come on. That screams of a mistake, right?

BUT, they should really know by now that there's always a method to these guys' madness...ESPECIALLY Nick Saban.

Hear me out:

1. We have tons of depth at DE. We have JT, Kevin Carter, David Bowens, and Matt Roth...and Vonnie Holliday. Those are 5 DEs that (call me a homer) you wouldn't exactly be shocked to see any one of them starting on another team.

2. Vonnie Holliday played Defensive Tackle in college, and made the transition to defensive end when he played in Green Bay. There was some question as to whether he could make the transition to DE in the pros, but he was so talented that pro teams wanted to place him in a position to make game-changing plays, rather than stick him in at DT.

3. Back on the Packers, he was one of the strongest men on the team. They had both lines, OL and DL, benchpress 315 pounds as many times as they could, just to get a measure of their offseason conditioning. Holliday, with 15 reps, had the most reps on the team as a rookie, bar none (even big fat Gilbert Brown).

4. Holliday is no longer considered such a talent that you need to keep him on the outside in a passrush position so he can make game-changing plays. In fact, at the End position, he's in danger of getting buried on the depth chart by playmakers such as Jason Taylor, Kevin Carter, Matt Roth, and even David Bowens, who made an interception in camps while dropping back into coverage.

5. Holliday is signed to a two-year deal, which could be extended if he found a permanent home on this defense. If it were a one-year deal, neither he nor the team would be willing to have him do something drastic like change his playing weight...


My conclusion:

I believe the Phins are serious about Manuel Wright. But no matter how serious you are, unless you're willing to give up way too much, you never know if you're going to get the guy you want in the supplemental draft. We're thin at DT, thick at DE. We have a DE who was a 300+ pound DT in college, and has become a very talented run stopper at DE in the pros, who is threatening to be buried as the 5th DE on the depth chart, yet we're thin at DT. What do you do? You place him at defensive tackle, and even nose tackle, and you see if he shows you something you like. If he does, and if Manuel Wright either turns out to not end up a Phin, or not be capable of playing Nose Tackle, you have your man gain 30 pounds and he plays tackle all year long....regular DT and NT.

We have Keith Traylor (who use to be a MLB btw, talk about weight gain and a dramatic position change!) but he can't be counted on to play nose tackle on every single play. After all, the guy admits he's got nothing left in the tank in this heat, and he's trying to get into shape to play in this weather. Larry Chester is a half-step from an injury settlement and being cut, depending on who you believe. I say keep an eye on this one. Vonnie Holliday at nose tackle is an idea that I think we had all better get use to. He does not have to gain 30 or 40 pounds of pure muscle in order to play that position. All he needs really is the mass. He's got a lot of the strength already.
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Very good observation and I tend to agree...I'd though about it when seeing him line up in that position..I was trying to imagine what situation he could be there in...I couldn't see him at his present weight being in there in a run situation, and thought Saban wanted to use his pass rushing abilities on some obvious passing situations. Like 3rd and 12+. He'd have to gain atleast 35lbs to be an effective every down type NT\DT. At his present weight he could play situational DT. Well he started at DT, maybe it's time to go back to DT..
 
Just one note, and I can't emphasize enough the difference between a defensive tackle and a nose tackle. They are different positions. What I am talking about is Vonnie Holliday being asked to gain weight and play NOSE tackle, not defensive tackle. Seeing Holliday in at defensive tackle is not worthy of note. We grabbed him with the intent of using him at the defensive tackle spot on some downs to get more of a passrush presence, in addition to rotating in at defensive end.

Local Miami media would not have raised any objections to seeing Holliday at defensive tackle. But they did raise the question when they saw Holliday in at NOSE tackle. So far, they have seemed confused on the move, and have taken it as a rare opportunity to criticize the coaching staff for a move that seems obviously misguided.

Also, to me, it does not make sense to have Vonnie Holliday AT HIS CURRENT WEIGHT in at nose tackle on obvious passing downs. This is mainly because, I'm not sure it makes sense to have a "passrushing" nose tackle in on obvious passing downs period. It's not really a position you can passrush from I don't think. To me, a nose tackle's job on run downs is to tie up a minimum of two blockers at all times, and not get moved. On passing downs, his job is to tie up a minimum of two blockers by getting right in the Center's face and creating a mismatch to the point where if the guard did not come over to help, that Center is going to be flat on his butt, because he's got a 340 pound mean hulk gunning at him before he's even done hiking the ball. With the nose tackle tying up a guard and center, that gives you interior blitz passrush options, or exterior ones depending on the blocking scheme. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong about that. But, Vonnie Holliday has not become a passrush specialist during his career despite some early passrush success in Green Bay (his best year he played opposite Reggie White, so I'm guessing he got a little help there). In Kansas City he came to be known as a quality run stopper, who could not make many plays rushing the passer (think Kenny Mixon).

He's got the strength of a bull, and he's a good run stopper. I'm thinking the coaches now have no confidence in Larry Chester making it back, and they know that Traylor can't be expected to be an every down guy in the base package. So, they're going to take Holliday, who is already very strong, add a bunch of bulk to him, give him a buddha belly, and have him share time with Traylor at NT if Chester never makes it back.

Things could change if we manage to get Manuel Wright, but also keep in mind that Wright is currently about 305 pounds, and will have missed 100% of the mini-camps where he would have been learning his role in the defense. He'd have to learn the defense and his role in it at training camp, and that is very tough to do.
 
If he gains weight to play this position, wouldn't this take away from his overall play? in other words would he be comfortable playing at that weight?
 
If he gains weight to play this position, wouldn't this take away from his overall play? in other words would he be comfortable playing at that weight?
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It depends. If you ask him to gain the weight and then you expect him to continue to get in the mix at defensive end, or ask him to play defensive tackle in passrush situations, then that would not be very wise. If you ask him to gain the weight and really become a nose tackle, the only question is, will he be an effective one? It doesn't matter if he loses some quickness if he's playing the nose tackle position, what matters is that he not get moved, and that he be able to put the Center on his @zz in an instant if he's not double-teamed.

That last question is something that I believe the coaching staff is trying to gauge right now. Does he show enough skill at the position at 290 pounds, such that if you told him to put on 30 pounds of muscle and fat, he would be an effective nose tackle.

This isn't like getting Ricky Williams to gain 30 pounds. At runningback that 30 pounds needs to be all muscle, and strategic muscle so that he doesn't lose that all-important quickness that a RB needs.

What Holliday would need is MASS, pure and simple, muscle or fat. He's got strength already. Mass gives him more leverage and ability to not get moved.
 
The bottom line here Parrot is that your theory is not outlandish at all.
Will it happen? Who knows but I really have no idea why some people would think it such a reach to turn a DE into a NT, after all Keith Traylor came into the league as a LB........ that's a much bigger leap than DE to NT.
 
Good 2nd post CK. A lot of people confuse DT and NT.


I dont remember who said it, but I wanted to state that IMO there is NO way Holliday can play NT AND DE. The factors associated with both positions are too different for me to believe he can gain the weight to play NT and be a great pass rusher at DE. God bless him if he can get up to 330 and be a great pass rusher from the outside..... that would be incredible to see.

However for some reason, I still cannot picture Holliday as a NT. I think our best rotation at NT is going to be Traylor and Wright if we draft him. Holliday can play DT, but I happen to agree with the local media. I was not expecting to see a 330 lb Holliday line up at NT along with Traylor.

It would be excellent if that did happen for the reasons stated in CK's first post about our abundance of DEs and lack of DTs...... however I feel this decision might revolve around Manuel Wright.
 
Holliday bulking up to play DT is a no brainer at this point. We need the depth and he's lost a step as a pass rusher. Also he's an excellent run stopper. Seems like a natural progression. Also Carter did the same thing for the Titans when they needed DT depth. Between these two DT\DE tweeners it will give Saban flexability where there shouldn't be any right now, at DT.
 
Megatron said:
Holliday bulking up to play DT is a no brainer at this point. We need the depth and he's lost a step as a pass rusher. Also he's an excellent run stopper. Seems like a natural progression. Also Carter did the same thing for the Titans when they needed DT depth. Between these two DT\DE tweeners it will give Saban flexability where there shouldn't be any right now, at DT.
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There is a BIG difference between DT and NT..... Holliday playing DT isnt far fetched, he would not need to put on as much weight..... However Holliday playing NT was a shock to me.

When we play a 4-3 we will have a DT and a NT playing.... when we play a 3-4 front, we only have a NT playing.

NT's are at least 320 lbs.... ideally 335ish. Holliday was listed at like 6'5 290 so for him to put on 45 lbs to play the NT position is amazing IMO.

At his current weight of 290ish, he can get away with playing DT, but definately NOT NT.
 
Philter25 said:
There is a BIG difference between DT and NT..... Holliday playing DT isnt far fetched, he would not need to put on as much weight..... However Holliday playing NT was a shock to me.

When we play a 4-3 we will have a DT and a NT playing.... when we play a 3-4 front, we only have a NT playing.

NT's are at least 320 lbs.... ideally 335ish. Holliday was listed at like 6'5 290 so for him to put on 45 lbs to play the NT position is amazing IMO.

At his current weight of 290ish, he can get away with playing DT, but definately NOT NT.
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He does have the height though, should give him an advantage to bulking up and beating smaller linemen.
 
He does have the height though, should give him an advantage to bulking up and beating smaller linemen.
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Height is not looked upon as something that nose tackles need. I mean, they shouldn't be below 6 feet tall, and wingspan is usually a good thing in terms of tackling ability, but height in and of itself should be around 6'2" on average for nose tackles. The really tall guys end up with back problems.
 
There is two types of players involved here...NT is the traditional position associated with the 3-4 defense...a big fat guy who is parked over the center and who's job is to clog the middle and occupy two or more OL (particularly the center, to not allow him to move out and get in the way of the LBs.) In Wanny/JJ's scheme, they use two DT (one could be called a NT because he would line up on the center, but traditionally, in this scheme, they stradle (sp) the center). Their job is to occupy 3 or more OL and the FB as well, tie up the middle so that the quicker LBs can roam to fill the gaps for run support and pressure on the QB...

What I believe that Saban will do is play the base 4-3 with guys able to slide into the 3-4 set just as the ball is snapped, after the QBs LOS read...this might give us a little edge since the QB won't know for sure if we will stay in the 4-3 or rotate into a hybrid 3-4...we have the athletes in (as you mentioned CK) Holliday to play NT/DT or slide out to the DE spot and Bowens or JT could stand up in the OLB position as the ball is snapped. Much like HH is doing with the OL where he wants all the guys to play multiple positions, the same can be said for Saban and the DL/LB (ok, so ZT won't be playing NT I'm sure)...but the idea is that we have Carter, Holliday, Trayler, Zgonia and Chester as potential DTs with Bowens, Taylor, Roth, Carter, Holliday, Flemons as DE's. Then you have Bowens, Roth, Crowder, Seau, ZT, JT all as potential LBs...gives us a kind of flex defense with personnel that are interchangeable and allow for some deception on the part of coverage calls during any part of the game (1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th downs..)
 
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