Jason Cole: Dolphins concerned about Tannehill

[FinfanInBuffalo]

OK, I was wrong about his accuracy. He's average, not below average. What does that win him or you for that matter?

Fact is look at those charts and it tells you everything you need to know, which is what the original point of the discussion was. Tanny needs to show improvement in the deep ball. Most (not all) of the games top throwers and recent SB winners (not to mention conference championship game participants) are among the best at it.

For now he throws the deep ball at a below average rate and connects at it at an average rate. Why is that? Are they just hiding his amazing skillset?

Jesus, really? Does 58 sacks ring a bell? I just shake my head at the nonsense that gets posted.

BTW, to everybody other than Mike Wallasaurus Rex, he is above average in deep ball accuracy.

 

[Nawledge]

What does it tell me? He's been average at the deep ball, but has excelled in the past running a spread offense and had the luxury of BB calling the defense behind him. He's an anomaly based on how that chart is structured.

Career attempts he also has infinitely more than Tannehill at this stage, so we don't know how his distribution curve sits (did he regress at one point?).

So let me get this straight...you provide a chart, think it suits your agenda but didn't read it then when it gets pointed out that Tannehill is more accurate passing deep than a hall of fame qb you make excuses....? Do you understand how silly you sound? You should've just stopped10-15 pages ago...

 

[enigmatics]

So let me get this straight...you provide a chart, think it suits your agenda but didn't read it then when it gets pointed out that Tannehill is more accurate passing deep than a hall of fame qb you make excuses....? Do you understand how silly you sound? You should've just stopped10-15 pages ago...

There's no agenda, other than more goading on your end.

You're also the same person who's trying to compare Tanny's body of work (32 games) to Brady's (193 games) as if it shows expectancy. Brady is STILL the anomaly on that chart. 2/3'rds of the games best QB's are more accurate with the deep ball. They keep defenses honest, which has been my entire point.

 

[Vaark]

posting on a MB doesn't take guys though putting someone on ignore shows a lack of guts. maybe if you didn't run and hide we could have had meaningful discussions? I have showed numerous examples of your OL being much better the 2nd half and about Ryan being responsible for many of the sacks. The bottom line is he faced 2 mediocre teams needing 1 win to get to postseason and put up 7 pts COMBINED. Sorry, he doesn't get the OL excuse. I have said it many times if the OL was better maybe they make it but if the QB was better they definitely make it. They were in playoff position in spite of Ryan not b/c of him.

You mentioned in one of your posts yesterday that you thought buttfumble had only 1 bad year and the other 3 were relatively good. And presumably that includes 2011 where he was 8-5 going into game 14 looking forward to playing 3 losing teams at the time (18-25) who finished the season at 43-67. Yet he performed underpar, putting up a 60QBR a 55% completion rate and throwing 5 TDs to 7 Ints. Statistically by most analytics he was one of the worst QBs in the league and in 11 despite having a chance to make it to the postseason he didn't even beat 1 winning team of those 8 victories.

Tannehill fell short in the Jets game but in game 14, against the leading NE, rose to the occasion unlike buttfumble. Game 15 vs Buffalo, where the avg 29th rated OL according to 5 different statistical analyses, each using their own methodologies allowed 7 sacks including Williams' second knocking Tannehill out of the game for a few plays and injuring his knee, so that's sure not on him.... The game 14 upset over the Pats is on him as well as the game 16 loss to the jets despite Hartline going down and Tannehill not being healthy. All 3 jets losses were on buttfumble.

Beyond the jets not beating a winning team in '11, Tannehill beat 4winning playoff bound teams in '13 and 2 more in his rookie season. That's 6 over 2 years compared to the best I can see, buttfumble beating a total of 5 winning teams in 4 seasons.

So buttfumble in '11 including his swan songs actually had his best QBR of 78.2, with 26 TDs and 18 Ints throwing for 3474 yards while Tannehill in '13 by comparison had an 81 QBR, threw 24TDs and 17 Ints and 3913 yards despite the abysmal OL, based on 5 separate individual analytics with no axes to grind, the 26th ranked running game that couldn't block for ****, his top TE not making it out of training camp and the receiver with whom he most clicked going down in the 6th game (the same receiver who in '12 for the Rams, led the league in clutch 3rd down and TD completion percentage)

Consequently if buttfumble had a good year in '11 as you contend, then Tannehill using the same benchmarks had an incrementally better one in '13. If Tannehill had a bad year in '13 then buttfumble had an incrementally worse one in '11... which would dovetail into his '12 season performance consistently. You decide.

I'll hang up and listen to your spin :up:



5 separate individual analytic methodologies that could care less about specific team stats: I'd say there's a consensus.

 

[Nawledge]

There's no agenda, other than more goading on your end.

You're also the same person who's trying to compare Tanny's body of work (32 games) to Brady's (193 games) as if it shows expectancy. Brady is STILL the anomaly on that chart. 2/3'rds of the games best QB's are more accurate with the deep ball. They keep defenses honest, which has been my entire point.

Lol so if the chart means nothing then why did u post it at all? You're tellin me right now that you can't take the chart at face value because guys have played more games than others, so then what the hell is the point of showing me the chart? This whole thread you have talked in circles and made no sense.

 

[enigmatics]

Lol so if the chart means nothing then why did u post it at all? You're tellin me right now that you can't take the chart at face value because guys have played more games than others, so then what the hell is the point of showing me the chart? This whole thread you have talked in circles and made no sense.

You're fixating on the anomaly Tom Brady. It has nothing to do with the chart not having important information. It's like when people instantly rush to the "but but but Drew Brees needed more than 3 years". It's called cherry picking.

My point in saying to you it is pointless to compare Brady's career deep ball numbers to Tanny's in total is because of sample size. That is why we should be looking at younger QB's as guidance to where the game is going.

But you're deflecting regardless, that's why you want to concentrate solely on Brady and not everything else that is in that chart.

 

[DuderinoN703]

Everywhere? He was a project in Dallas who learned behind Romo and Brad Johnson. He won himself the starting job in Carolina with his exemplary play, but ended up getting hurt as well as the whole Carolina team in shambles being ravaged by injuries within the first 7-8 weeks. They tank and the new regime was installed along with THEIR guy Cam Newton. He comes to Miami and Sparano refuses to give him time with the 1's to challenge Henne. Look how that decision turned out. Then we get a new regime and they draft THEIR guy.

If you want to convey a dishonest argument that he's gotten a fair shake and the ability to be somewhere where he could thrive under consistency then I don't know what to tell you. In fact you're being a hypocrite because that's exactly what you want for Tanny.

You're really saying Moore is a good QB who has just been screwed by the 3 different teams he's been on in his career? He's just a "woe is me" player who never got a chance?

 

[Nawledge]

You're fixating on the anomaly Tom Brady. It has nothing to do with the chart not having important information. It's like when people instantly rush to the "but but but Drew Brees needed more than 3 years". It's called cherry picking.

My point in saying to you it is pointless to compare Brady's career deep ball numbers to Tanny's in total is because of sample size. That is why we should be looking at younger QB's as guidance to where the game is going.

But you're deflecting regardless, that's why you want to concentrate solely on Brady and not everything else that is in that chart.

It's from 2008-2013 not his whole career. If you don't wanna talk about Brady then we can discuss how he is ahead of flacco and Ryan as well. Two names who people around here say throw nice deep balls. And there's a lot of guys who deep ball accuracy percentage is extremely close to but just ahead like roethlisburger and Stafford.

 

[nyjunc]

Blatant lie.

In fact you ended that last debate by switching your ridiculous rhetoric to "show me where everybody was complaining about the OL".

Pull up the thread.

You mentioned in one of your posts yesterday that you thought buttfumble had only 1 bad year and the other 3 were relatively good. And presumably that includes 2011 where he was 8-5 going into game 14 looking forward to playing 3 losing teams at the time (18-25) who finished the season at 43-67. Yet he performed underpar, putting up a 60QBR a 55% completion rate and throwing 5 TDs to 7 Ints. Statistically by most analytics he was one of the worst QBs in the league and in 11 despite having a chance to make it to the postseason he didn't even beat 1 winning team of those 8 victories.

Tannehill fell short in the Jets game but in game 14, against the leading NE, rose to the occasion unlike buttfumble. Game 15 vs Buffalo, where the avg 29th rated OL according to 5 different statistical analyses, each using their own methodologies allowed 7 sacks including Williams' second knocking Tannehill out of the game for a few plays and injuring his knee, so that's sure not on him.... The game 14 upset over the Pats is on him as well as the game 16 loss to the jets despite Hartline going down and Tannehill not being healthy. All 3 jets losses were on buttfumble.

Beyond the jets not beating a winning team in '11, Tannehill beat 4winning playoff bound teams in '13 and 2 more in his rookie season. That's 6 over 2 years compared to the best I can see, buttfumble beating a total of 5 winning teams in 4 seasons.

So buttfumble in '11 including his swan songs actually had his best QBR of 78.2, with 26 TDs and 18 Ints throwing for 3474 yards while Tannehill in '13 by comparison had an 81 QBR, threw 24TDs and 17 Ints and 3913 yards despite the abysmal OL, based on 5 separate individual analytics with no axes to grind, the 26th ranked running game that couldn't block for ****, his top TE not making it out of training camp and the receiver with whom he most clicked going down in the 6th game (the same receiver who in '12 for the Rams, led the league in clutch 3rd down and TD completion percentage)

Consequently if buttfumble had a good year in '11 as you contend, then Tannehill using the same benchmarks had an incrementally better one in '13. If Tannehill had a bad year in '13 then buttfumble had an incrementally worse one in '11... which would dovetail into his '12 season performance consistently. You decide.

I'll hang up and listen to your spin :up:



5 separate individual analytic methodologies that could care less about specific team stats: I'd say there's a consensus.

2009- good for a rookie
2010- top 10ish
2011- mid of the pack
2012- bottom

I don't care what methods are used, those that just evaluate based on stats mean nothing to me. Isn't it funny hearing all the praise of mark this preseason?

he sucked to end 2011 but he led his O's to an AVERAGE of 17 PPG including facing the hottest team in the league(philly) and the eventual SB champs. Ryan led his Os to 7 points TOTAL against 2 non playoff bound teams.

Ryan was great against NE but he had 2 games left where he led his O(more talented O than the 2011 Jets by the way) to SEVEN POINTS TOTAL in the final 2 games against Ds that allowed 24 points per GAME on average.

awesome, Geno beat the Pats and Saints last year- what does that mean?

awesome QBRs but where was he to end the Bal game? the home Buf game? the TB game? etc...?

mark by 2011 had 2 title game apps on his resume, does Ryan?

vaark after the NE win:

bragging about how great Ryan was: http://www.finheaven.com/showthread...Holy-Grail-quot-(for-some)-How-RT17-Stacks-Up

still whining about calls even though they won: http://www.finheaven.com/showthread...credit&p=1064924991&viewfull=1-post1064924991

telling us how great Philbin is: http://www.finheaven.com/showthread.php?349018-Joe-Philbin&p=1064925889&highlight=#post1064925889

bashing 2 guys who have actually made the playoffs: http://www.finheaven.com/showthread...it!!!!&p=1064926480&viewfull=1-post1064926480

you last posted going into Bills game yet didn't post again for weeks- I wonder why that was?

 

[enigmatics]

You're really saying Moore is a good QB who has just been screwed by the 3 different teams he's been on in his career? He's just a "woe is me" player who never got a chance?

I'm saying his conditions were far less than ideal for getting a fair shake at proving himself.

 

[enigmatics]

It's from 2008-2013 not his whole career. If you don't wanna talk about Brady then we can discuss how he is ahead of flacco and Ryan as well. Two names who people around here say throw nice deep balls. And there's a lot of guys who deep ball accuracy percentage is extremely close to but just ahead like roethlisburger and Stafford.

Being ahead of Flacco and Ryan is fine. I don't happen to be in the camp who thinks Ryan is all-world. He's clearly aided by two top shelf WR's in that offense. I said this before, but Flacco's SB year was lightening in a bottle compared to the thrower he actually is. Was definitely an impressive run in the playoffs though and can't take that away from him.

 

[Nawledge]

Being ahead of Flacco and Ryan is fine. I don't happen to be in the camp who thinks Ryan is all-world. He's clearly aided by two top shelf WR's in that offense. I said this before, but Flacco's SB year was lightening in a bottle compared to the thrower he actually is. Was definitely an impressive run in the playoffs though and can't take that away from him.

Then what about just being slightly behind Stafford and ben? You're talking 0.2 difference or whatever it was. I mean Tannehill is not that far behind those guys and I'm sure you would say they throw good deep balls. Or you would have before posting the chart at least...

 

[DuderinoN703]

What context? These were the drives .... two of them stalled on Tanny plays. But I'm being told it was all on the rest of the team. I didn't see the drive, but were there better options than the Miller check down on the first one?

1st drive: 12 plays, 75 yards. TOP - 12:55. Stalled at Dallas' 8 after a possible check down to Miller that failed to pick up the first. FG 3 pts

2nd drive: 8 plays, 49 yards. TOP - 3:46. On the drives last play, Tannehill passed for the first down on 3rd and 3 with a 6 yard pass to Dion Sims who fumbled.

3rd drive: 3 plays, 3 yards. TOP -1:00. 1st down; Tannehill avoided a sack by throwing the ball at or around Sims for the in-completion. 2nd down; Miller run for 3 yards. 3rd down; bad throw by Tannehill in the flat to Sims which resulted in an in-completion. Punt

4th drive: 10 plays, 47 yards, TOP - 4:35. Although the drive was extended by an illegal formation penalty on 4th and 3 at the 7:17 mark, Hartline dropped a 5 yard pass that was directly in his hands on 3rd and 3 to force that punt. The play that killed the drive was a 10 yard penalty on Satele after Tannehill had connected with Wallace for a first down on 3rd and 3. Down was replayed at 3 & 10 and Tannehill was forced to throw it away when two Cowboys broke free on a blitz that was not picked up.

5th drive: 10 plays, 69 yards TOP - 4:48. Drive ended in a very bad decision by Tannehill to force it to Hartline and it was intercepted.

His first drive they get a FG. Sure you want the TD but it's points.

2nd drive was a fumble by Sims. Ultimately Miami could've scored on that drive had the turnover not happened, no way to know for sure. Not RT's fault.

3rd drive sounded like a bad drive. Nothing good there.

4th drive had Hartline drop a first down pass. Just like the 2nd drive, this one could've resulted in a FG or TD had Hartline not have dropped the first down pass. No way to know again. Not RT's fault.

5th drive was Tannehill's fault. Can't throw a pick there of course.

End results, one drive had points, two drives ended b/c of Sims and Hartline when Tannehill would've had first down completions on each, one Sparano-like drive and one awful drive. In the grand scheme of things, NFL QB's all the time have drives that stall or ones that end in turnovers. Sims and Hartline need to secure the ball and make the catch. Who knows, the Dolphins could've had 14 pts after those two drives.

It's up to the TEAM to play better.

 

[Sons Of Shula]

Being ahead of Flacco and Ryan is fine. I don't happen to be in the camp who thinks Ryan is all-world. He's clearly aided by two top shelf WR's in that offense. I said this before, but Flacco's SB year was lightening in a bottle compared to the thrower he actually is. Was definitely an impressive run in the playoffs though and can't take that away from him.

At least your done with Matt Moore GOAT BS.

---------- Post added at 02:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:20 PM ----------

His first drive they get a FG. Sure you want the TD but it's points.

2nd drive was a fumble by Sims. Ultimately Miami could've scored on that drive had the turnover not happened, no way to know for sure. Not RT's fault.

3rd drive sounded like a bad drive. Nothing good there.

4th drive had Hartline drop a first down pass. Just like the 2nd drive, this one could've resulted in a FG or TD had Hartline not have dropped the first down pass. No way to know again. Not RT's fault.

5th drive was Tannehill's fault. Can't throw a pick there of course.

End results, one drive had points, two drives ended b/c of Sims and Hartline when Tannehill would've had first down completions on each, one Sparano-like drive and one awful drive. In the grand scheme of things, NFL QB's all the time have drives that stall or ones that end in turnovers. Sims and Hartline need to secure the ball and make the catch. Who knows, the Dolphins could've had 14 pts after those two drives.

It's up to the TEAM to play better.

That was actually a copy and paste job that Enigmatics did of a post of mine last night. He conveniently left out my other explanations which you just filled in. Don't waste your time with that troll.

 

[Vaark]

Pull up the thread.




2009- good for a rookie
2010- top 10ish
2011- mid of the pack
2012- bottom

I don't care what methods are used, those that just evaluate based on stats mean nothing to me. Isn't it funny hearing all the praise of mark this preseason?

he sucked to end 2011 but he led his O's to an AVERAGE of 17 PPG including facing the hottest team in the league(philly) and the eventual SB champs. Ryan led his Os to 7 points TOTAL against 2 non playoff bound teams.

Ryan was great against NE but he had 2 games left where he led his O(more talented O than the 2011 Jets by the way) to SEVEN POINTS TOTAL in the final 2 games against Ds that allowed 24 points per GAME on average.

awesome, Geno beat the Pats and Saints last year- what does that mean?

awesome QBRs but where was he to end the Bal game? the home Buf game? the TB game? etc...?

mark by 2011 had 2 title game apps on his resume, does Ryan?

vaark after the NE win:

bragging about how great Ryan was: http://www.finheaven.com/showthread...Holy-Grail-quot-(for-some)-How-RT17-Stacks-Up

still whining about calls even though they won: http://www.finheaven.com/showthread...credit&p=1064924991&viewfull=1-post1064924991

telling us how great Philbin is: http://www.finheaven.com/showthread.php?349018-Joe-Philbin&p=1064925889&highlight=#post1064925889

bashing 2 guys who have actually made the playoffs: http://www.finheaven.com/showthread...it!!!!&p=1064926480&viewfull=1-post1064926480

you last posted going into Bills game yet didn't post again for weeks- I wonder why that was?

how would you know, didn't that time correspond with your one or both of your bans (not talking about the several threads you were banned from) so stop stalking me.. .. and buttfumble sucked in '11 not even beating 1 winning team .. At least he beat 1 in 12. And if you want to reference quote, you know I got a million of your ridiculous ones that impugn any credibility about QBs.

LOL@"middle of the pack" in his 3rd season vs Tannehill's then obviously "better than middle of the pack" in his 2nd season despite the 29th avg ranked OL that got him injured in the Buffalo game.

Again, either Tannehill underperformed and buttfumble underperformed worse, or buttfumble was "average" and Tannehill was "better than average" Oh and according to the best coach on the field, Mike Westhoff, buttfumble was an incidental passenger on any busses that made it to the postseason whether on their own merits or via charity from Bill Polian and the 14-0 Colts starters. And he was never top ten.. just the "ish" part of it.