Jets sign both 1st rounders

[Dors156]

i think the bills will finish last this year.the jets in my mind had probably the best draft.after the draft was over i was scared thinking about the future of the jets.the jets will be third but the future will be the jets trying to take it from the fins:wink:

 

[nyjunc]

say what you want but the scenarios were and are very different, first off how can you call you qb situation stable? you still have no idea who will be the #1 qb on your team so to me thats clearly unstable

We have multiple candidates. Again we have a former top QB who, if healthy, can be again. we have a quality backup who was ok in limited time starting and we have a QB of the future. We have all bases covered.

and are you really willing to say you have confidence in chad pennington?

No i do not have confidence in him ONLy b?c of health. if he was close to halthy i'd feel great so we'll see.

and bad mouth culpepper all you want its not really going to have any affect on how he tears apart the jets, and not to mention that daunte has taken his team further into the playoffs than chad so i dont know where again you were going with all the chad playoff numbers.

daunte has 2 playoff wins in 5 years as a starter, Chad has 2 playoff wins in his only 2 years that he was close to playing 16 games. yes he took them to the NFC Title game int he weak NFC then posted a 13 rating against a team that was far from great. In a MUCH tougher div and conf Chad has been mroe successful in his limited time.

and not to mention at the time the nfc north was a pretty strong division with the packers and the vikings battling it out every year for the division title.

:sidelol: :sidelol: You don't watch alot of football, do you? The NFC North has been one of the, if not the, worst divisions in football for years.

OK Junc... tell me why is Chad 3-14 (or 18%)when his defense has allowed 20 points or more??? His great record as you say" the jets win with Chad" is because he has had a good defense playing with him...and you can check out the team records with this link... or any link that gives out players stats...
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpag.../gamelogs/2002

What's the point? In alot of his games he got his team out in front and his D playing w/ a lead. It wasn't like we were winning 16-13 games, look at that '02 season he led us to 44, 31, 31, 30, 42, 41 in wins. We won 2 low scoring games and he put up over 20 in 3 of our losses. it's similar the next couple opf years. I'm not really sure what that proves? I know what you are trying to get at but if you examine the #s more closely it's really irrelevant. If we were winning 20-17 then I could buy that argument. The 2 games in '04(vs. Cincy, at SD) we were winning big and the opponents scored some late points to go over 20. Does Chad get a medal b/c the D gave up 20? Plenty of tims the D gave up close to 20 and again alot of times Chad led us to alot more than 20 so it wasn't close and therefore irrelevant.

Amazing, you gauge Daunte when he loses game where his D has given up over 20 ppg, but Chad has a worst winning % than Daunte (16-38 or 30%) in this area...again follow the stats link for Daunte just like you would for Chad, and add this one for Daunte in 2000, he played all 16 games...

It doesn't matter, alot of times daunte's O struggles early and puits the D in a bad spot and daunte always does w/ his ill time TOs. A major reason why the Jets D didn't let up 20 alot was b/c Chad protected the ball and didn't kill them w/ TOs.

To me when i see that Minnesota has a BETTER record when daunte doesn't play and the Jets have a MUCH worse record when Chad doesn't play that tells me a little about their value to their teams.

I agree with you that the Jets win with Chad, but not when Chad has to provide over 20 points to make up for the Defensive deficite to win games...

W/ Chad out in '03 the D held Wash to 16 pts and we lost, the D held Dal to 17 and we lost, in '04 they held the ravens to 17 in regulation and we lost, last year we held Bal to 13 and lost, held NE to 16 and lost, we also won a game where the D gave up 26. What does this mean? That we'd rather have Chad not playing? the record shows how much better we are w/ him.

Also, Minny's D hasn't been great but a big problem for the D has been DAUNTE CULPEPPER. His TO's have killed them.

The 2 years that Chad played in the Post Season, all 4 games. In 02 PS...Jets 41-Indi 0, and Jets 10- Pit 30. In 04 PS... Jets 20-SD 17, and Jets 17- Pit 20... See the trend, both loses to a team that scored more than 20 points...Now in 02 the jets won the "tie-breaker to win their Division, and lost to the AFC competitor in the SB.

The trend is we beat the teams we were better than and lost to the teams that were better than us and we lost tough games on the road. In '02 Chad was still a 1st yr playing QB and we didnt' match up well w/ Oak but we were in the game in the 4th qtr. in '04 he was playing w/ a torn rotator cuff in his throwing shoulder and still if our Kicker makes ONE of 2 MAKEABLE kicks we win.

With Daunte's 2 year Post season showing, all 4 games. In 00 PS...Minny 34-NO 16, and Minny 0-NYG 41. In 04 PS...Minny 31- GB 17, and Minny 14- Phili 27... See the same trend? Now mind you Minny won their Division in 02 and also lost to the team from the NFC that played in the SB in 2004.

The trend is Minny beat horrible teams and lost to ok teams(Philly was good the Giants were average).

Now we are getting into the diff of AFC vs. NFC. The '00 Giants were nowhere near the '02 Raiders and we were actually in the game against the raiders whereas minny was beaten up from the start and their O w/ 2 future HOF WRs and a great RB couldn't score a point and Daunte posted a 13 rating.

put the Jets in the NFC and we have at least 1 SB trip and multiple conf title games. If the jets played in the NFC North since '02 we'd have 3 div titles, in that span Daunte led Minny to ZERO.

So to sum it up, both QBs:
Won 1 Division Championship...
Are 2-2 in the PS...
Lost one PS game to the team representing their Conference in the SB...
Have trouble beating opponets when their D gives up over 20 PPG...

They look alike but our div was MUCH tougher to win, our last place team was 8-8. 2-2 in the postseason but never did Daunte face a team the caliber of oak '02 or Pitt '04. The Jets are MUCH worse when Chad does not start, Minny is BETTER when Daunte does not start.

Point is, it took a "tie-breaker" to win the Division in 02 with a tremendous 9-7 record...

Chad led us back from 1-4, 2-5 in a div w/ the defending SB Champ, 3 teams w/ winning records and the 4th was at 8-8. A div that was thge best in football that year and by far better than any year of the NFC Cent/North that Daunte competed in.

Maybe this will give you a clearer picture... The Jets D have not given up more than 17 points in 19 of the 35 games (.54%) Chad has started...

Again that has alot to do w/ Chad b/c Chad doesn't turn it over at bad times and kill his D. These are nice #s but don't really show anything. Once again if most of our wins were 20-17 then i might agree but they aren't.

Daunte's D has not given up less than 17 points in only 22 of the 73 games (.30%) Daunte has started...

last year when Daunte started the D gave up 28 PPG yet when Brad started they gave up 17. Is that a coincidence? Nope, it has to do w/ the ill-time Daunte TOs that set his D up to fail.

You are absolutely right, but come back and re post after Chad has had 5 full seasons of playing... it might take him another 10 years...

Maybe that's true, maybe he never starts full time again. It sucks b/c he was a top QB but that's life in the NFL.

My math tells me in five years Daunte started 73 games and was 36-37, 1 game below .500, and his replacements was 3-4, also 1 game below .500...

2005 doesn't count?

Of course I choose to neglect 05' because among other issues, DC was working with new OC, new WRs and a patch work of an OL, but of course you would choose only 05 in basing your case... but you know, you need more than 16 games to prove a point, I gave you 73 of them...

you can't ignore 2005, it was a new OC but not a new system. He lost the biggest reason he was successful, Moss, but that's life. Chad lost his best player after '02 then led us back to the div rd in '04.

Now, he has not been able to take his team under his arm consistantly and bail his Defense out.

of course he has, he has gievn his teams leads and not turned it over whoch always bails out a D. By the way in '02 our D was terrible at the start of the year but as Cahd began to play and cut down on mistakes and put points on the board early our D began to play alot better.

Of course "Chad wins games," specifically those that are tied with a great Defensive performance...

Keep ignoring the role the QB ahs on the points the D gives up but you are only fooling yourself.

 

[Mike13]

must disagree with your comment abot chad. if it were not for two missed field goals by doug brien in the playoffs two years ago, The jets are in the AFC title game against the Pats.

And you still would have lost, the Jets have a habit of choking against the Pats, no offense.

last year when Daunte started the D gave up 28 PPG yet when Brad started they gave up 17. Is that a coincidence? Nope, it has to do w/ the ill-time Daunte TOs that set his D up to fail.

Maybe it had to do with the fact that The Vikes didnt have a team around him, and Brad played against weak teams.

We have multiple candidates. Again we have a former top QB who, if healthy, can be again. we have a quality backup who was ok in limited time starting and we have a QB of the future. We have all bases covered.

Those are the key words, but keep in mind if he is healthy he may not be the same QB he once was, his shoulder is really f'ed up. As for Clemens he may or may not be your QB of the future we have to see what he can do which may take a few years.

 

[miaD5499]

We have multiple candidates. Again we have a former top QB who, if healthy, can be again. we have a quality backup who was ok in limited time starting and we have a QB of the future. We have all bases covered.




No i do not have confidence in him ONLy b?c of health. if he was close to halthy i'd feel great so we'll see.



daunte has 2 playoff wins in 5 years as a starter, Chad has 2 playoff wins in his only 2 years that he was close to playing 16 games. yes he took them to the NFC Title game int he weak NFC then posted a 13 rating against a team that was far from great. In a MUCH tougher div and conf Chad has been mroe successful in his limited time.



:sidelol: :sidelol: You don't watch alot of football, do you? The NFC North has been one of the, if not the, worst divisions in football for years.



What's the point? In alot of his games he got his team out in front and his D playing w/ a lead. It wasn't like we were winning 16-13 games, look at that '02 season he led us to 44, 31, 31, 30, 42, 41 in wins. We won 2 low scoring games and he put up over 20 in 3 of our losses. it's similar the next couple opf years. I'm not really sure what that proves? I know what you are trying to get at but if you examine the #s more closely it's really irrelevant. If we were winning 20-17 then I could buy that argument. The 2 games in '04(vs. Cincy, at SD) we were winning big and the opponents scored some late points to go over 20. Does Chad get a medal b/c the D gave up 20? Plenty of tims the D gave up close to 20 and again alot of times Chad led us to alot more than 20 so it wasn't close and therefore irrelevant.



It doesn't matter, alot of times daunte's O struggles early and puits the D in a bad spot and daunte always does w/ his ill time TOs. A major reason why the Jets D didn't let up 20 alot was b/c Chad protected the ball and didn't kill them w/ TOs.

To me when i see that Minnesota has a BETTER record when daunte doesn't play and the Jets have a MUCH worse record when Chad doesn't play that tells me a little about their value to their teams.




W/ Chad out in '03 the D held Wash to 16 pts and we lost, the D held Dal to 17 and we lost, in '04 they held the ravens to 17 in regulation and we lost, last year we held Bal to 13 and lost, held NE to 16 and lost, we also won a game where the D gave up 26. What does this mean? That we'd rather have Chad not playing? the record shows how much better we are w/ him.

Also, Minny's D hasn't been great but a big problem for the D has been DAUNTE CULPEPPER. His TO's have killed them.




The trend is we beat the teams we were better than and lost to the teams that were better than us and we lost tough games on the road. In '02 Chad was still a 1st yr playing QB and we didnt' match up well w/ Oak but we were in the game in the 4th qtr. in '04 he was playing w/ a torn rotator cuff in his throwing shoulder and still if our Kicker makes ONE of 2 MAKEABLE kicks we win.



The trend is Minny beat horrible teams and lost to ok teams(Philly was good the Giants were average).

Now we are getting into the diff of AFC vs. NFC. The '00 Giants were nowhere near the '02 Raiders and we were actually in the game against the raiders whereas minny was beaten up from the start and their O w/ 2 future HOF WRs and a great RB couldn't score a point and Daunte posted a 13 rating.

put the Jets in the NFC and we have at least 1 SB trip and multiple conf title games. If the jets played in the NFC North since '02 we'd have 3 div titles, in that span Daunte led Minny to ZERO.



They look alike but our div was MUCH tougher to win, our last place team was 8-8. 2-2 in the postseason but never did Daunte face a team the caliber of oak '02 or Pitt '04. The Jets are MUCH worse when Chad does not start, Minny is BETTER when Daunte does not start.



Chad led us back from 1-4, 2-5 in a div w/ the defending SB Champ, 3 teams w/ winning records and the 4th was at 8-8. A div that was thge best in football that year and by far better than any year of the NFC Cent/North that Daunte competed in.



Again that has alot to do w/ Chad b/c Chad doesn't turn it over at bad times and kill his D. These are nice #s but don't really show anything. Once again if most of our wins were 20-17 then i might agree but they aren't.




last year when Daunte started the D gave up 28 PPG yet when Brad started they gave up 17. Is that a coincidence? Nope, it has to do w/ the ill-time Daunte TOs that set his D up to fail.



Maybe that's true, maybe he never starts full time again. It sucks b/c he was a top QB but that's life in the NFL.



2005 doesn't count?



you can't ignore 2005, it was a new OC but not a new system. He lost the biggest reason he was successful, Moss, but that's life. Chad lost his best player after '02 then led us back to the div rd in '04.



of course he has, he has gievn his teams leads and not turned it over whoch always bails out a D. By the way in '02 our D was terrible at the start of the year but as Cahd began to play and cut down on mistakes and put points on the board early our D began to play alot better.



Keep ignoring the role the QB ahs on the points the D gives up but you are only fooling yourself.

wow ur pretty stupid, first off the nfc north does suck now but a few years back when daunte was still on the vikings the division would always be between the packers and the vikings, i guess your the one who really hasnt paid much attention......if you really are banking on the jets season to be determined by a bunch of ifs and maybes then good luck but buddy face reality the jets are going nowhere in a hurry, have fun watching your mess...and another thing how are you still going about that their is no qb problem its a complete merry go round, you can have 3 different canidates starting opening day at qb and not because they are good but because there just isnt anyone better or one that clearly sticks out trust me im a dolphins fan ive endured plently of qb situations and yours is clearly a mess, and once again there is no such thing as a healthy chad so just get over that idea, the guys done and he doesnt even have a sorounding cast around him that would be able to lift him up even if he was healthy, curtis martin is wayy over his prime and none of your wrs are any real threat


Edit- just a fun fact but in the latest SI fantasy football edition on the qb rankings the jets dont even have one qb on the list while some other teams have 2, haha pretty sad

Edit #2- not to mention that the year the jets lost to the steelers in the playoffs they had a completely different team that they will put on the field this year, and not to mention a much better one...curtis martin was playing his best football (led the league in rushing that year), the deffense was ranked top 10, and you had a different coach...much has changed

 

[Disnardo]

Also, Minny's D hasn't been great but a big problem for the D has been DAUNTE CULPEPPER. His TO's have killed them.

I totally agree with you here.... Daunte has never had a D that can make up fore his mistakes, unlike other teams, which I proven you in prior posts... Hell even when he does not make them his D still struggles...

Again that has alot to do w/ Chad b/c Chad doesn't turn it over at bad times and kill his D. These are nice #s but don't really show anything. Once again if most of our wins were 20-17 then i might agree but they aren't.

.

Then how about adding these numbers to those other...

Those games won with Chad a a stater (02-04), with the D giving less than 17 PPG, and gathering a total of 42 TOS (INTS, FUM); 16 (38%) of them in the 1st half.

You still think that the Jets D had nothing to do with the win??? If you still believe this you are not being rational but biased...

Chad seemed to have hurt his team in winning this PS game against Pit, placing the ball inside the NY 25...
2-6-NYJ32(4:27) C.Pennington pass intended for S.Moss INTERCEPTED by T.Polamalu at NYJ 39. T.Polamalu to NYJ 25 for 14 yards (S.Moss, C.Pennington). Pressure on Pennington by #50 FootePittsburgh Steelers at 04:161-10-NYJ25(4:16) J.Bettis up the middle to NYJ 21 for 4 yards (J.Vilma).2-6-NYJ21(3:33) B.Roethlisberger pass to H.Ward to NYJ 12 for 9 yards (J.Vilma).1-10-NYJ12(2:51) B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete to P.Burress. Coverage by #29 Abraham; fade pass thrown in end zone2-10-NYJ12(2:48) J.Bettis right end to NYJ 3 for 9 yards (E.Barton; R.Tongue).3-1-NYJ3(2:01) #78 Starks is an eligible receiver J.Bettis up the middle for 3 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

last year when Daunte started the D gave up 28 PPG yet when Brad started they gave up 17. Is that a coincidence? Nope, it has to do w/ the ill-time Daunte TOs that set his D up to fail.

We already discused this area before, I showed you where the media and analyst proved this to be more of the team D gelling together than Brad being the catalyst. Even the players admited it...Till the last game of the season, Tice was still fumbling with the OL to improve it...

2005 doesn't count?

No I did not count it, as stated in my prior post, it would not help Chad as well as Daunte...

Keep ignoring the role the QB ahs on the points the D gives up but you are only fooling yourself

We are not ignoring the QB, after 6 years we have another good one under the helm, wait and see... and we will be discussing this at the end of the 2006 season...

 

[nyjunc]

wow ur pretty stupid, first off the nfc north does suck now but a few years back when daunte was still on the vikings the division would always be between the packers and the vikings

Before you call someone stupid you might want to check yuor facts. The NFC north has been a complete joke. Not 1 team has advanced past the div rd, the div only has 2 playoff wins in that time(1 was a head to head b/c the NFC was so pathetic in '04 they let in 2 8-8 teams). From '02-'04 the NFC North was 114-142 while the AFC east was 138-118.

i guess your the one who really hasnt paid much attention......if you really are banking on the jets season to be determined by a bunch of ifs and maybes then good luck but buddy face reality the jets are going nowhere in a hurry, have fun watching your mess..

I'm not banking on anything, I am expecting 6-7 wins but I guess you missed the point about the NFL today being so unpredictable as teams can go from 4-12 to playof teams the next year and vice versa.

Edit- just a fun fact but in the latest SI fantasy football edition on the qb rankings the jets dont even have one qb on the list while some other teams have 2, haha pretty sad

last time I checked the Jets weren't playing fantasy football. This is why you guys think daunte is great b/c he puts up big fantasy #s but the game is nto about fantasy #s it's about winning and daunte is not a winner.

Edit #2- not to mention that the year the jets lost to the steelers in the playoffs they had a completely different team that they will put on the field this year, and not to mention a much better one...curtis martin was playing his best football (led the league in rushing that year), the deffense was ranked top 10, and you had a different coach...much has changed

of course we were better, I didn't say we'd be better than that team. that team was very close to doing something special. I don't know what your point is?

I totally agree with you here.... Daunte has never had a D that can make up fore his mistakes, unlike other teams, which I proven you in prior posts... Hell even when he does not make them his D still struggles...

Isn't it interesting though that the D gave up 28 PPg when Daunte started and just 17 when Brad started?

You still think that the Jets D had nothing to do with the win??? If you still believe this you are not being rational but biased...

When did I ever say the D had nothing to do w/ us winning? of course they had something to do w/ it but the D. in '02 it was more Chad and the O, the D got the benefit of playing w/ a lead in most games and they played well w/ a lead. in '04 the D carried us after Chad got hurt.

Chad seemed to have hurt his team in winning this PS game against Pit, placing the ball inside the NY 25...

He did, he was playing w/ a torn rotator cuff in his throwing shoulder and our O did very little that day but he did get us in position to win the game and our K missed 2 makeable FGs.

We already discused this area before, I showed you where the media and analyst proved this to be more of the team D gelling together than Brad being the catalyst. Even the players admited it...Till the last game of the season, Tice was still fumbling with the OL to improve it...

So in all of daunte's years the D stinks and all of a sudden they get it as soon as he goes down? Come on, just look at the TO's from Daunte and the points they led to. i'll copy and paste the info from the other thread:

Game 1 D gives up 24 but 7 were the result of Daunte TO so D gave up 17Game 2 D gives up 37 but 17 pts came off Daunte TOs so D gave up 20
Game 4 D gives up 30 but 3 are result of Daunte fumble so D gave up 27.
Game 5 D gives up 28 pts but 7 are a result of Daunte TO so D gave up 21.
Game 6 D gives up 20 but 7 are a rsult of daunte fumble so D gave up 13.

Actual points allowed per game: 27.8
Taking away TOs from daunte leading to points: 19.6
It's interesting that w/ Brad as QB the D gave up 17 pts a game very close to the # it would have been w/o Daunte TOs in the 5 games above.

No I did not count it, as stated in my prior post, it would not help Chad as well as Daunte...

It does count.

We are not ignoring the QB, after 6 years we have another good one under the helm, wait and see... and we will be discussing this at the end of the 2006 season...

We'll be discussing this for years unless of course the impossible happens and Daunte leads you to a SB this year then it will shut me up.

 

[BwanaZulia]

yea many jet and bills fans refer to last years excitement and like to aware us finfans but in reality the situations are soo different.....chad pennington IMO was never good enough to get the jets anywhere and still isnt and another year obviously didnt help curtis martin, injuries plagued the team but many of the players that were hurt are no longer on the team and neither is their best Dline man john abraham...they jets had a decent draft and helped build their oline but they really didnt get any standouts at key positions, the whole qb situation is a mess and eric mangini is a bit of a risk taker IMO, hes too young and doesnt seem to have the ability to control the whole team like that certain spunk IMO...........as a dolphins fan i feel confident that things will go right this season and im not worried about what happened to the bills or jets last year

You kidding? The Dolphins went from 4-12 with no hope to 9-7 in one season with a brand new coach (no NFL experience) and no QB. Chad, with a broken wing is better than Scrub1 and Scrub2 playing for the Phins last year.

As for standouts? I think Vilma, Dyson, Miller and Graham are all standouts.

BZ

 

[Disnardo]

We'll be discussing this for years unless of course the impossible happens and Daunte leads you to a SB this year then it will shut me up.

Naw, I would never let that happen... I mean what is the point of not chatting with an opponents fan? Good luck this year, except when you play us...:wink:

 

[Disnardo]

Chad, with a broken wing is better than Scrub1 and Scrub2 playing for the Phins last year.

As for standouts? I think Vilma, Dyson, Miller and Graham are all standouts.

BZ

I tend to agree with BZ here...

 

[The New Guy]

But Daunte Culpepper is? In a MUCH tougher div in only 2 near full seasons Chad has led us to a div title(the only QB besids Brady to lead his team to an AFC East title since '01) and 2 trips to the div rd of the playoffs. daunte has made the playoffs twice in5 full years in a pathetic div and conf. Oh and Minny was 4 game sunder .500 when Daunte started and 4 games OVER .500 when he did not while the Jets were 5 games over w/ Chad and 11 games undre w/o him.

Those numbers are really skewed by the opposite seasons the Jets and Vikings had in 05. If you look at the numbers when each team had comparable backups from 01 to 04, both teams are 2 games under .500 without the starters.

In 2001 Culpepper started 11 games and was 4-7. Todd Bouman started three games and was 1-2, and Spergon Wynn started 3 games and was 0-3 for a combined 1-5 performance. Not so good without Culpepper.

In 2003 Culpepper started 14 games and was 7-7. Four of those 7 wins came against teams that were 10-6 or better.
(Packers 10-6, Seattle 10-6, Broncos 10-6, Chiefs 13-3)



Gus Frerotte started 2 games that season and was 2-0, but both of those wins came against teams that had losing records. (San Fransisco 7-9, and Atlanta 5-11)


In 2002 Chad played 13 games and was 8-5. Vinny played 3 games and was 1-2.

In 2003 Chad was 4-7, and Vinny was 2-4.

In 2004 Chad was 8-5, and Carter was 2-1.

So, from 2000 to 2004 the Vikings went 3-5 without Culpepper.
From 2002 to 2004 the Jets went 5-7 without Pennington.

A lot of things went wrong in 05 for both teams, but the situations were completely different. The Vikings were 7-3 in 05 without Culpepper, but they had Brad Johnson (A 2 time pro bowler, and former Super Bowl winner) as the backup, and still only beat 1 team that was over .500.

The Jets went 3-10 without Pennington, but they had Brooks Bollinger (A guy who had never started an NFL game, and had only attempted 9 passes in his career) as the backup. The Jets also had a tougher schedule than the Vikings did. (5 games with teams that were above .500 after Bollinger took over.)

Chad started out 1-2, and looked pretty bad in the 3 games he played in before he got injured. I really do not believe that the Jets would have had a much better season than they did even if Pennington had not gotten injured in week 3. I do believe that the Jets are worse off without Pennington, but not as much as it showed last season. I also believe that the Vikings are much better off with Culpepper at QB. Do you really think that the Vikings were better with Bouman, Wynn, Frerotte, or Johnson?

It will be fun to see who has a better record leading their teams in 06. I am guessing it will be Culpepper.

 

[nyjunc]

Naw, I would never let that happen... I mean what is the point of not chatting with an opponents fan? Good luck this year, except when you play us...:wink:

It would shut me up on that subject, there's still plenty left to argue about:D

Those numbers are really skewed by the opposite seasons the Jets and Vikings had in 05. If you look at the numbers when each team had comparable backups from 01 to 04, both teams are 2 games under .500 without the starters.

That plays into it, both teams had high expectations going into '05. The jets were 1-1(on their way to 1-2) when Chad got hurt and the Vikes were 2-4(on their way to 2-5) when daunte got hurt. After that Minny rebounded w/ their backup and the Jets collapsed w/ their backups. I think that last season is essential to the argumetn and over the course of almost a season w/o the 2 starters it showed how valuable they were.

In 2002 Chad played 13 games and was 8-5. Vinny played 3 games and was 1-2.

1-3 in games Vinny started, the Jets were 8-4 in games Chad started.

In 2003 Chad was 4-7, and Vinny was 2-4.

We went 6-11? 2-5 when vinny started 4-5 when Chad started.

So, from 2000 to 2004 the Vikings went 3-5 without Culpepper.
From 2002 to 2004 the Jets went 5-7 without Pennington.

If you are counting Vinny '02 then the backups for the Jets from '02-'04 went5-9 and 2005 should count MORE b/c it gave backups a chance to play extended time. When a guy misses a game or 2 here and there it's easier for a team to rally around the backup but when a guy is gone for the year it's more difficult to hide the warts of the backup.

The Jets went 3-10 without Pennington, but they had Brooks Bollinger (A guy who had never started an NFL game, and had only attempted 9 passes in his career) as the backup. The Jets also had a tougher schedule than the Vikings did. (5 games with teams that were above .500 after Bollinger took over.)

We also had Vinny who came in off the couch and led us to a win over playoff bound TB. We always have a tougher sched than minny(which is a main reason why the Jets success under Chad is alot more impressive than what Minny has done under Daunte) so that's not an excuse. The easy games to end '03 and '04 w/ the Vikes needing a win to secure a playoff berth didn't stop daunte from playing poorly and leading them to losses. You still have to beat the lesser teams.

Chad started out 1-2, and looked pretty bad in the 3 games he played in before he got injured. I really do not believe that the Jets would have had a much better season than they did even if Pennington had not gotten injured in week 3.

Chad lookd bad in week 1 b/c he could not hold onto the ball and was fumbling all game. he was alot better in week 2 including a 7 for 7 drive that ended the dolphin game then against a top Jax D where he got hurt earlier in the game he came back and led us deep in jax territory where if Chrebet holds onto a a TD pass we win the game but instead we got to OT and lose. If Chad continued to improve and stayed playing we would have been alot better.

I do believe that the Jets are worse off without Pennington, but not as much as it showed last season. I also believe that the Vikings are much better off with Culpepper at QB. Do you really think that the Vikings were better with Bouman, Wynn, Frerotte, or Johnson?

They looked better w/ Brad last year, that might not carry over for years but in that year they were better off w/ Brad.

It will be fun to see who has a better record leading their teams in 06. I am guessing it will be Culpepper.

Are you talking Chad vs. Daunte or Brad vs. Daunte? If it's Chad then i'd bet daunte too, if it's Brad I wouldn't be so sure b/c of the horrible division the Vikes play in.

 

[The New Guy]

That plays into it, both teams had high expectations going into '05. The jets were 1-1(on their way to 1-2) when Chad got hurt and the Vikes were 2-4(on their way to 2-5) when daunte got hurt. After that Minny rebounded w/ their backup and the Jets collapsed w/ their backups. I think that last season is essential to the argumetn and over the course of almost a season w/o the 2 starters it showed how valuable they were.

I think that it only shows how important it is to have a good backup. Put Bollinger with the Vikings, and I don’t think you see 7 wins without Culpepper. If Chad was leading the Jets to 2-0 or 3-0, then I think it would be different, but he looked bad, even in the game against the Dolphins. There were several passes that just hung up in the air forever, but our secondary was pretty bad in that game, and could not take advantage. I agree with you and also think that the Jets would have had a better season if Pennington had stayed healthy, but I am not sure how much better off they would have been. The backup Qb was not the only problem for the Jets in 05.


It is hard to compare backup QBs over the course of the season from two different teams because of the schedules. If one team plays the majority of their games against teams that are bad, and the other teams plays the majority of their games against good teams, that is going to affect your record no matter who the QB is.

1-3 in games Vinny started, the Jets were 8-4 in games Chad started.

Yes, that is technically correct, but you can’t blame Vinny for the loss against Jacksonville. He may have started the game, but he only attempted 4 passes.
Chad came in and attempted 34 passes, so that loss is on Chad, not Vinny.

We went 6-11? 2-5 when vinny started 4-5 when Chad started

Sorry, typo.:D Chad was actually 4-6, not 4-7. I count the loss against the Eagles, because Chad attempted 24 passes, and threw a pick, and Vinny attempted 11 passes and threw a TD.

If you are counting Vinny '02 then the backups for the Jets from '02-'04 went5-9

See above post. They were 5-7 which is two games under .500, just like the Vikings backups.

2005 should count MORE b/c it gave backups a chance to play extended time. When a guy misses a game or 2 here and there it's easier for a team to rally around the backup but when a guy is gone for the year it's more difficult to hide the warts of the backup.

If you are trying to gauge what kind of backup you have, then I agree; but when you are gauging how valuable your starter is compared to a different team’s starter because of how successful, (or not successful) the backup Qb is, then I disagree. There are too many other factors that play into it. If both teams had the same talent around them, the same talent at the backup QB position, and both teams played the same level of competition, then I would say that it would be a fair comparison.

What if I were the Vikings backup QB in 05? They probably would have gone, 0-8 when Culpepper went down. Would that have proved that Culpepper is more valuable to the Vikings than Chad is to the Jets, since Bollinger won 3 games?

We also had Vinny who came in off the couch and led us to a win over playoff bound TB. We always have a tougher sched than minny(which is a main reason why the Jets success under Chad is alot more impressive than what Minny has done under Daunte) so that's not an excuse. The easy games to end '03 and '04 w/ the Vikes needing a win to secure a playoff berth didn't stop daunte from playing poorly and leading them to losses. You still have to beat the lesser teams

That just tells me Chad has a better team around him. Sure Culpepper has had his bad games, but so has every other NFL QB. Plus, we are talking about the backups facing tough competition or easy competition. If one backup plays easy competition, and the other plays tough competition, there value to the teams will look different than it really is.

They looked better w/ Brad last year, that might not carry over for years but in that year they were better off w/ Brad.

They looked better because Brad played against bad teams. There are also other factors such as adjusting to a new offense, and adjusting to not having Randy Moss. Those things take time.

Are you talking Chad vs. Daunte or Brad vs. Daunte? If it's Chad then i'd bet daunte too, if it's Brad I wouldn't be so sure b/c of the horrible division the Vikes play in.

I was talking about Brad. I can’t see the Vikings winning more than 7 or 8 games this year, but I could be wrong.

 

[nyjunc]

I think that it only shows how important it is to have a good backup. Put Bollinger with the Vikings, and I don’t think you see 7 wins without Culpepper. If Chad was leading the Jets to 2-0 or 3-0, then I think it would be different, but he looked bad, even in the game against the Dolphins.

Chad was playing better, he had some bad passes in that Miami game but he was 7 for 7 on the game clinching drive and lost another TD on a blown call. he had us right there w/ jax and even w/ the re-injured shoulder he led us down for the tie(should have been the win if Chrebet held on to a catchable ball).

Vinny was a quality backup and w/ him we started 0-4 in '03 and our season was over. Brad led TB to 7 wins in '03 and 0-4 in his only 4 starts in '04. It wasn't like he was a sure thing at this point of his career.

It is hard to compare backup QBs over the course of the season from two different teams because of the schedules. If one team plays the majority of their games against teams that are bad, and the other teams plays the majority of their games against good teams, that is going to affect your record no matter who the QB is.

Not really b/c every year the Jets have a harder sched than Minny b/c we play in a better div and conf so you compare what the QBs did against a similar sched. it worked out lst year that 3 of the 5 games against good teams came w/ daunte starting but he was atroicous in those games and Minny had no chance while Brad helped beat NYG and didn't kill them against Pitt, they were at least in the game for a while.

Yes, that is technically correct, but you can’t blame Vinny for the loss against Jacksonville. He may have started the game, but he only attempted 4 passes.
Chad came in and attempted 34 passes, so that loss is on Chad, not Vinny.

it was also Chad's 1st significant action. the starter gets the W or L. There have been a few games Chad left where we migth havewon ahd he stayed in and he gets credit for the L so he doesn't get it here.

Sorry, typo. Chad was actually 4-6, not 4-7. I count the loss against the Eagles, because Chad attempted 24 passes, and threw a pick, and Vinny attempted 11 passes and threw a TD.

it was Chad's 1st action after injury and again Vinny gets the credit b/c of the start.

See above post. They were 5-7 which is two games under .500, just like the Vikings backups.

5-9 unless you want to change up Chad's record as a starter and take away L's he wasn't responsible for even though he started.

There are too many other factors that play into it. If both teams had the same talent around them, the same talent at the backup QB position, and both teams played the same level of competition, then I would say that it would be a fair comparison.

the talent is comparable compard to the scheds the play, Minny plays in the weak NFC North and weak NFC while the Jets were built for the stronger AFC East and stronger AFC.

They looked better because Brad played against bad teams. There are also other factors such as adjusting to a new offense, and adjusting to not having Randy Moss. Those things take time.

those are excuses, Brad didn't have Birk at all, he didn't have Moss, he had a new system( a real new system as he was coming over from a new team not just a new coordinator w/ the same system), he had WR injuries and he succeeded. he succeeded mostly b/c h didn't try to do too much, he kept his team in games rather than force things and have bad Tos to kill them.

Everyone says daunte was "great" w/o Moss in '04(he was good and mostly agains bad teams or that dosn't count b/c it was Daunte?:D ) so why couldn't he adjust in '05?

I was talking about Brad. I can’t see the Vikings winning more than 7 or 8 games this year, but I could be wrong.

In that division they have a chance. Put Miami in the NFC North and they easily win, put Minny in the AFC East and they win 3 games.

 

[The New Guy]

Vinny was a quality backup and w/ him we started 0-4 in '03 and our season was over. Brad led TB to 7 wins in '03 and 0-4 in his only 4 starts in '04. It wasn't like he was a sure thing at this point of his career

Vinny was in his 17th season when he started those 4 games in 03 and was on the decline, but I agree that Vinny was not the Jets only problem in 03. Chad only won 2 more games than Vinny did that year so, that says something. Brad was not a sure thing, but he was relatively young compared to Vinny. Last year was Brad’s 15th season as a pro, and Vinny was in his 17th when he started for you guys in 03. So, if you consider Vinny as a quality backup in 03, you have to consider Brad as an even better backup.

Not really b/c every year the Jets have a harder sched than Minny b/c we play in a better div and conf so you compare what the QBs did against a similar sched. it worked out lst year that 3 of the 5 games against good teams came w/ daunte starting but he was atroicous in those games and Minny had no chance while Brad helped beat NYG and didn't kill them against Pitt, they were at least in the game for a while.

You can’t compare games at different points of the season, even if those games come against teams that seem to have a similar record. Teams don’t always start out as good as they finish.


As for Brad helping the Vikings beat the Giants; the Vikings had their worst offensive performance up to that point in the season. They won the game because they actually played defense and special teams. They were the first team in NFL history to have a kick, punt, and an interception returned for a TD.

Brad had similar numbers against Pitt, but the rest of the team did not play as well as they did against NYG. You need to have a team effort to be successful. The reason why Brad won 7 games was because he faced bad teams, and the Vikings started to get it together. The Vikings defense forced 22 turnovers during the 6 game win streak Brad had.

it was also Chad's 1st significant action. the starter gets the W or L. There have been a few games Chad left where we migth havewon ahd he stayed in and he gets credit for the L so he doesn't get it here.

Do you really believe that the starter is responsible for the loss when he only attempted 4 passes in the game? In the 02 game against Jacksonville, Chad attempted 34 passes, with 1 int and no TDs, but he is not responsible for the loss :confused: Vinny attempted 4 passes with no turnovers.

Chad gets the credit for the loss in games he came out in, because he got injured. If you can’t lead your team because you got injured, you should get credit for the loss.

Which games are you talking about where Chad did not finish, which caused the Jets to lose?

5-9 unless you want to change up Chad's record as a starter and take away L's he wasn't responsible for even though he started.

Vinny attempted 4 passes in the game against the Jaguars, and 11 passes with a TD against the Eagles, and he should get credit for both losses? The backups are 5 - 7.

Chad attempted 24 passes in the game against the Eagles. Chad was leading the Jets, and they were up by three in the fourth quarter. It was Chad’s interception in the fourth quarter that led to an Eagles TD. The Jets had another chance to win, but Chad took a big sack with less than 6 minutes to go, which led to a 4th and 1 which the Jets did not convert. Chad deserves the credit for that loss, as well as the loss against the Jags.

Every win and loss I have put on Chad has been where he took the majority of the snaps. If Chad attempted 4 passes in a game, then left, I would not count that as a loss.

it was Chad's 1st action after injury and again Vinny gets the credit b/c of the start

Just because a Qb starts a game does not mean he should automatically get credit for the win or the loss. You have to look at how many passes each QB attempmpted, and what each QB did in the game. Vinny attempted 11 passes and threw a TD with no picks against the Eagles, and Chad attempted twice as many passes (he had less passing attempts in a couple of games he did start in that same season) and threw a pick and no TDs, but Vinny is responsible for the loss? You are way out on a limb here.

Everyone says daunte was "great" w/o Moss in '04(he was good and mostly agains bad teams or that dosn't count b/c it was Daunte? ) so why couldn't he adjust in '05?

Because there are other factors besides Moss being gone. Culpepper did have a couple of great games against teams that were similar to the teams Brad played against.

21 – 29 for 300yds 3 tds, and no ints against the Saints.

21- 31 for 280yds 2 tds, and no ints against the Packers.

If Chad stays healthy this year, how many games do you think he will win as a starter? If he only wins 6 or 7, will you say he is a bad QB, or will you say it was because the team around him was bad? A QB needs a team around him to be successful.

 

[ThePats]

Good job jets but your still going to finish last in the east

Big deal? They arent picturing the Super Bowl right now, Mangini is in rebuilding mode. Mangini will be a much better coach than Hermy baby. Great for the Jets to get Mangold and D'Brick signed. Soon the O'Line will be great if they continue to build on it.